OU Viability Thread

[DoubleJ]

2 minutes ago, Robofiend said:

what can i say, camping and biking more fun than pokemon 

What you do isn't even pokemon, it's like... philosphy. I'm pretty jelly of the camping and biking. More fun than studying for boards haha. 

[RysPicz]

Definietly S.

Curselax is still meta defining, standard set is as threatening as it was but not that unbreakable, paraslam is still cancer, two good abilities, whirlwind and ability to pursuit-trap gives it awesome utility, with appropriate move it can cover any of it's switch ins. I also faced few facade snorlaxes to take advantage of those pesky weezings, pretty dope if you ask me.

It's meta defining but I feel like it's the hero we needed in OU, that dethroned Chansey and stopped us from reaching for tools like trapinch to dispose of it.

OU is still a clusterfuck and being able to check mixed wallbreakers (Metagross/ Flygon/ Blaziken mainly) isn't easy but from my tiny OU experience (but massive observation experience) it's heading the right direction.

 

I wouldn't worry about snorlax for now, but about the power of pokes like Gyarados, Metagross and Blaziken. Almost every team now has to carry a solid core to counter Blaziken, otherwise the team itself will get teared apart by it. Superpower/ Fire Blast/ HP Grass/ filler (I seen people running rock slide, qa, thunderpunch and EQ) paired with life orb can break almost every defensive core, Arcanine and Gyarados seem like only checks (Arc won't like quake slide, gyara dies to tpunch or gets badly hurt by rock slide).

Metagross does not have many counters either. I faced few mixed ones with Shadow Ball/ Meteor/ HP Fire/ Psychic and I gotta admit, it's fucking strong. Name a poke that can safely switch on this set without getting 1-2 shoted.

Gyarados is probably the main reason why HP Elec Cloysters became a serious thing, orbed DD Gyara after single DD is capable of already sweeping. Crunch KOs Starmie, EQ takes out Metagross, Waterfall is a strong spammable STAB.

 

So um, finishing my post:

Snorlax, Metagross for S

Gyarados and Blaziken for A or A+

Flygon for A (probably still one of the best banders we got in tier)

[Arimanius]

I fought a fucking bold snorlax with surf, thunderbolt, ice beam and fire blast. It did a lot more dmg to walls than I expected. I agree about all of the things both jj and 4f have said about lax

[DoubleJ]

Just now, Arimanius said:

I fought a fucking bold snorlax with surf, thunderbolt, ice beam and fire blast. It did a lot more dmg to walls than I expected. I agree about all of the things both jj and 4f have said about lax

Now that's one savage ass lax hahaha

[Arimanius]

9 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Now that's one savage ass lax hahaha

don't tell me about it, that thing fucked me over, idk who the hell would use a shit like that xD

[Robofiend]

Lf someone to take over management of this thread, I haven't had the time lately 

[KingBowser]

Dibs on taking it over

[codylramey]

I think bowser would do a great job if he takes the position srs

I think bowser would do a great job if he takes the position srs

[suigin]

Hello can anyone update this? We've had Johtomons and Milotic for a while, Snorlax has been banned also.

[BurntZebra]

Robofiend is close to dead so someone would have to make a new thread if people actually wanted new viability rankings. 

[KaynineXL]

Depending if nobody else volunteers to take this over by tomorrow, I'l consider doing it myself.

 

[RysPicz]

1 hour ago, BurntZebra said:

Robofiend is close to dead so someone would have to make a new thread if people actually wanted new viability rankings. 

Or a friendly staff member could do it? Amirite @Bluejim ;)
 

Maybe I'll spark some discussion if I'll throw my ideas

 

S

 

Venusaur- this poke has became incredibly viable after Snorlax ban, with Growth set being a metashaping one. Sludge, HP Fire and Giga drain assure it unresisted coverage (Heatran pls respond) and ability to break Chansey, which not many pokemons are capable of. Toxic immunity in our meta is great as well and very importantly, it deals with one of the biggest pests in the OU metagame- Breloom.

Metagross- do I really have to explain this one?

 

A+

 

Same as the current list + I'd throw in Flygon into it and move down Slowbro to maybe even B+, which isn't very happy of the "presence of many" (I'm such a nerd) Venusaurs and usually Milotic is the bulky water of Choice. Milotic deserves to hop into that rank from B on the other hand, stops a lot of prominent and powerful threats in our meta, makes status users think twice before using that twave/ tox and sports reliable recovery and a great bulk as well.

 

A

 

Seems about right except for Kingdra, which's usage proves it's not really a viable poke. I would put Sceptile into here though- Sub Endeavor set is just fantastic and there's only a handful of pokes that can take a HP Fire/ overgrow Giga Drain without a problem. I've seen Sceptile doing some really, really good work lately despite it's low usage.

I would also put Breloom into this rank, I see it quite often during matchmaking and it's such a @#$%^ annoying pest that I'm not surprised Venusaur's usage is so high (Actually, Breloom isn't even on the list of OU viability). And wtf is Magneton doing here, in a Shed Hull meta? No more than B+ lol this thread must've been updated ages ago for the last time

 

I dunno where to put Haunter and Tentacruel which lately has risen from the depths of UU to stop Venusaur, halp

 

E:

Someone else would be probably more qualified to do that than me, I'm mainly a UU player and my knowledge and experience about OU is mainly from stupid unranked matchmaking and some OU officials where I dare to participate with a monotype or hyper offense team

Edited January 3, 2017 by RysPicz

[suigin]

14 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

A+

Same as the current list + I'd throw in Flygon into it and move down Slowbro to maybe even B+, which isn't very happy of the "presence of many" (I'm such a nerd) Venusaurs and usually Milotic is the bulky water of Choice. Milotic deserves to hop into that rank from B on the other hand, stops a lot of prominent and powerful threats in our meta, makes status users think twice before using that twave/ tox and sports reliable recovery and a great bulk as well.

I agree with all of this this however I don't know if Ursaring should remain in A+. I haven't seen one in a while and while it does break many things after being status'd it's pretty damn slow and dies fairly easily, maybe he stayed there when the meta was more defensive and relied more on status but nowadays I feel like he should move down.

 

Meanwhile I consider Blaziken to be A+ or S since it has a ton of viable sets that can heavily punish opposing teams if they mispredict or if they don't have an absolute answer for it. Be it SD, Choice Band, Choice Scarf,Salac Reversal, Agility, Mixed you name it. Its only downside is lack of switch ins, how common it is to wear down and vulnerability to status.

 

I'd wait for Flygon to get Dragon Dance before it gets to A+ I still feel that he's solid A material solely because of his scarf set.

[RysPicz]

1 hour ago, suigin said:

I agree with all of this this however I don't know if Ursaring should remain in A+. I haven't seen one in a while and while it does break many things after being status'd it's pretty damn slow and dies fairly easily, maybe he stayed there when the meta was more defensive and relied more on status but nowadays I feel like he should move down.

 

Meanwhile I consider Blaziken to be A+ or S since it has a ton of viable sets that can heavily punish opposing teams if they mispredict or if they don't have an absolute answer for it. Be it SD, Choice Band, Choice Scarf,Salac Reversal, Agility, Mixed you name it. Its only downside is lack of switch ins, how common it is to wear down and vulnerability to status.

 

I'd wait for Flygon to get Dragon Dance before it gets to A+ I still feel that he's solid A material solely because of his scarf set.

Yeah I agree with Ursaring, it's viable for sure in our Chansey meta but not to a degree to be A+.

 

I don't think Blaziken deserves to be "S" considering the fact that Arcanine and Milotic are in the tier. A or A+ is fine already

 

About Flygon- it's a great poke on it's own and does not need DD to become A+. Scarf is decent but don't forget that it's movepool is huge and usage stats prove that it still is a very viable pokemon capable of both stopping offense with scarf and breaking walls with Band/ Sub sets

[BurntZebra]

7 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Yeah I agree with Ursaring, it's viable for sure in our Chansey meta but not to a degree to be A+.

 

I don't think Blaziken deserves to be "S" considering the fact that Arcanine and Milotic are in the tier. A or A+ is fine already

 

About Flygon- it's a great poke on it's own and does not need DD to become A+. Scarf is decent but don't forget that it's movepool is huge and usage stats prove that it still is a very viable pokemon capable of both stopping offense with scarf and breaking walls with Band/ Sub sets

Swords dance blaziken ohkos milotic and has a 37.5% of ohko'ing arcanine if adamant, so slowbro+bulky starmie are the only somewhat safe answers to swords dance blaziken. That being said, A+ is probably fine since it gets outsped by flygon/gyarados/anything else fast and can't really afford to switch in vs anything directly. 

[RysPicz]

1 minute ago, BurntZebra said:

Swords dance blaziken ohkos milotic and has a 37.5% of ohko'ing arcanine if adamant, so slowbro+bulky starmie are the only somewhat safe answers to swords dance blaziken. That being said, A+ is probably fine since it gets outsped by flygon/gyarados/anything else fast and can't really afford to switch in vs anything directly. 

As much as I agree with this, your calcs aren't correct:

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 173-204 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 190-226 (96.4 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

How did you get that 37,5% actually?

Spoiler

sorry for nitpicking, but I think everyone knows how strict I am when it comes to calculations

 

[BurntZebra]

30 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

As much as I agree with this, your calcs aren't correct:

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 173-204 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 190-226 (96.4 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

How did you get that 37,5% actually?

  Hide contents

sorry for nitpicking, but I think everyone knows how strict I am when it comes to calculations

 

I used 252 hp/228 def arcanine. I figure most run some speed and it was the standard set on the DPP calc so it made life easy. 

[OrangeManiac]

3 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Or a friendly staff member could do it? Amirite @Bluejim ;)
 

Maybe I'll spark some discussion if I'll throw my ideas

 

S

 

Venusaur- this poke has became incredibly viable after Snorlax ban, with Growth set being a metashaping one. Sludge, HP Fire and Giga drain assure it unresisted coverage (Heatran pls respond) and ability to break Chansey, which not many pokemons are capable of. Toxic immunity in our meta is great as well and very importantly, it deals with one of the biggest pests in the OU metagame- Breloom.

Metagross- do I really have to explain this one?

I definitely see what you're trying to say with this one, but I don't feel as Venusaur deserves S tag. A+, definitely. It's a special sweeper that Chansey cannot do anything against. Also it counters lots and lots of viable Pokemon. However, to be considered S as I see it to be something like Metagross. Have insane amount of positive traits and just a few negatives. I think current Venusaur being so good in the meta is the product of the metagame rather than Venusaur being that good on its own. For this reason I'd rank it A+ instead of S.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, RysPicz said:

A

 

Seems about right except for Kingdra, which's usage proves it's not really a viable poke. I would put Sceptile into here though- Sub Endeavor set is just fantastic and there's only a handful of pokes that can take a HP Fire/ overgrow Giga Drain without a problem. I've seen Sceptile doing some really, really good work lately despite it's low usage.

 

DD Kingdra is viable but only in a really really offensive support. DD set late game is scary and the fact you need to save your ways to beat DD Kingdra during the game will make your decision planning limited, which helps to predict for breaking other walls. However, as this is a Pokemon that needs support the B description fits better so I think B+ wouldn't be bad.

[Suneet]

1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

As much as I agree with this, your calcs aren't correct:

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 173-204 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 190-226 (96.4 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

How did you get that 37,5% actually?

  Hide contents

sorry for nitpicking, but I think everyone knows how strict I am when it comes to calculations

 

Swords Dance get +2 Attack, not+1

[OrangeManiac]

5 minutes ago, Suneet said:

Swords Dance get +2 Attack, not+1

Arcanine Intimidates which makes the switch-in take +1 hit. It's basically to demonstrate how hard Arcanine does or does not counter Blaziken.

[Suneet]

Just now, OrangeManiac said:

Arcanine Intimidates which makes the switch-in take +1 hit. It's basically to demonstrate how hard Arcanine does or does not counter Blaziken.

Oh yeah lol, I forgot about that

[Erayne]

Starmie definitely A+. Huge movepool, good stats, possibility to recover, remove spikes, trick, really good scarfer, modest hits really hard with special choice band, and bulky set is sooo good in this meta. Probably even S soon. I mean, there's almost no reason to not run a starmie right now

Edited January 3, 2017 by Erayne

[OrangeManiac]

5 minutes ago, Erayne said:

Starmie definitely A+. Huge movepool, good stats, possibility to recover, remove spikes, trick, really good scarfer, modest hits really hard with special choice band, and bulky set is sooo good in this meta. Probably even S soon. I mean, there's almost no reason to not run a starmie right now

I agreed everything until the last sentence and "probably S soon". It has a couple of flaws but they are massive. Being able to be Pursuit trapped makes Tricksets really high risk. Not only Umbreon Pursuit trap Starmie on pretty much every occasion, but more viable Pokemon like Houndoom and Metagross can trap a Psychic-locked Starmie as well. In addition Starmie can't do much shit on the field other than Rapid Spin until Chansey is down. Even if Chansey is Tricked it still cannot sweep until Chansey is down. Rapid Spinning isn't reliable if Dusclops is still alive. There's so many cases where Starmie will have tough time that I wouldn't call it S ever. A+ is possible for its numerous positive traits but I find the negative traits big enough to justify it as A rank mon.

[Erayne]

3 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

I agreed everything until the last sentence and "probably S soon". It has a couple of flaws but they are massive. Being able to be Pursuit trapped makes Tricksets really high risk. Not only Umbreon Pursuit trap Starmie on pretty much every occasion, but more viable Pokemon like Houndoom and Metagross can trap a Psychic-locked Starmie as well. In addition Starmie can't do much shit on the field other than Rapid Spin until Chansey is down. Even if Chansey is Tricked it still cannot sweep until Chansey is down. Rapid Spinning isn't reliable if Dusclops is still alive. There's so many cases where Starmie will have tough time that I wouldn't call it S ever. A+ is possible for its numerous positive traits but I find the negative traits big enough to justify it as A rank mon.

252+ Atk Choice Band Metagross Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 90-106 (66.6 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

4 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 38-48 (28.1 - 35.5%) -- 3.5% chance to 3HKO

 

252 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 80-96 (59.2 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

and thats with a totally hp/def uninvested starmie. Once metagross (if choice band) pursuits it has to switch out giving the opponent a great advantage, while umbreon is pure set up bait. So that's not really what makes it not worthy of S rank, considering metagross is easily trapped by magneton, and sometimes by trapinch. And chansey isnt really a problem with trick, that makes it almost totally useless, and once chansey is down starmie is really hard to counter. Anyway I agree it's not rank S (definitely A+ tho), not because of the reasons you said, but because it lacks power a bit, just enough to not let it ohko some important pokemon in the meta.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Erayne