OU Viability Thread

[OrangeManiac]

Trapinch for C for obvious reasons

[Robofiend]

I think we're due for some changes:

Hera to A+: Heras a solid teammate who can abuse a lot of common threats with Guts and boost past walls with Swords Dance. With resistance to Dark, Ground, Fighting and enough bulk to take a hit or two from almost anything, Hera outshines other sweepers who have noticeable defensive weaknesses. Even Weezing, Heracross' best check is afraid of boosted attacks and can be played around pretty well. Other walls like Slowbro, Skarmory and bulky Gyarados can only swap in on certain attacks and risk taking losing large amounts of health against Guts boosted or Choice Band attacks.

Kingdra for A: with the recent popularity of Gyarados, Venusaur, Ludicolo and Psychics in OU, Kingdra finds less of a niche than it used to. While it does still have enough power to plow through weakened teams and it can still abuse status stall and other defensive tactics well enough to stay relevant.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Robofiend

[gbwead]

I don't think Umbreon deserves the B+ rank. I would say C or B.

[hr]

Trapinch for C for obvious reasons

I agree with this as well.

[hr]

Jolteon deserves B+ imo. He provides amazing support right now and the growth set can really surprise someone that isn't prepared.

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I think Alakazam and Linoone should be on this list: B/C rank.

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Cacturne and Tentacruel have really nice niches in the current meta. C/D rank imo.

Edited April 5, 2016 by lamerb

[bl0nde]

Porygon2 got mentions, but never got an official rank in the opening post. Heracross does need to be moved up by ursaring.

[Arimanius]

I don't think Umbreon deserves the B+ rank. I would say C or B.

[hr]

I agree with this as well.

[hr]

Jolteon deserves B+ imo. He provides amazing support right now and the growth set can really surprise someone that isn't prepared.

[hr]

I think Alakazam and Linoone should be on this list: B/C rank.

[hr]

Cacturne and Tentacruel have really nice niches in the current meta. C/D rank imo.

 

I agree with everything here except linoone, when used right linoone is beast, just saying

[DoubleJ]

Porygon2 got mentions, but never got an official rank in the opening post

 

Would definitely support Porygon2 being placed in A/A+ for its ability to spread status, counter Chansey and Gyarados with Trace, and check most special attackers. It is a very unique pokemon defensively that has a lot of surprise in its 4th moveslot. Thunderwave is crippling, while Facade can punish Chansey for even thinking about dropping status on it. Personally, I use Porygon2 in almost all of my OU teams and it helped carry me through the OU Winter Showdown. This baby deserves to sit alongside Chansey on this ranking list. 

[KaynineXL]

Agree with Robo, Hera at A+

This thing can be a monster, the fact there really isn't a switch that can completely counter every Hera set(not viable ones that I know of anyway) makes this thing scary in its own right.

 

Also agree with Kingdra at A, doesn't shrine like it did before.

 

Jolteon, yeh I can agree with that, B+ sounds fair, I'v seen many more Twave Chansey since Growth Venu came about which is great for Jolteon and can be a real threat with Growth/Wish.

 

Linoone/Zam B/B+ imo, going by the ranking descriptions it definitely fits, the Pokemon have clear flaws but if you have some support with them, say Trapinch with Zam and Memento and/or a Spinner with Linoone, they really can shine.

 

Cac/Tenta I'v not had time to play with/against those too much, but they definitely have great niches in the meta right now. 

 

And Pory, I really like right now. I feel like it fits in to the offensive teams better than Chansey is come cases, I'd agree with the A/A+ rank.

[Robofiend]

Gonna start with these, subject to revision:

 

Porygon for A: great wall, but an ill-timed Toxic against a team that doesn't have Chansey can keep it from stalling as effectively as well as it does when healthy. The ability to check most Gyarados, Jolteon, and a few other pokemon is a huge plus as well. Its biggest weakness is less reliable damage output compared to Chansey and the fact that its offensive options (BoltBeam, Tri Attack, Facade) generally open the door for Metagross, Magneton and other specially defensive pokemon to come in with relative immunity, so long as they can risk taking Toxic.

 

Heracross for A+: an all around solid sweeper with defense to back up an ultra spammable STAB and coverage to break through potential checks.

 

Kingdra for A: a scary sweeper whose abilities as both a Special and Physical sweeper make it rather threatening, although they are partially mitigated by how common certain checks are (Gyarados/Chansey, in particular)

 

Linoone for B: definitely falls into the "needs support" category, but only truly shines against stall. It requires a very special few teammates to be effective (Mag for Skarm, Gardevoir to east setup woes, etc.) but once it is set up very little can get in its way. While Metagross is a common threat, a +6 Linoone can both outspeed it and hit it hard enough to be effective.

 

Alakazam for B: cool sweeper and support (dat Trickband) but the fact that Aero ruins it 90% of the time is a black mark on it. Espeon in part outclasses it with better defensive stats and similar offensive capabilities.

 

Jolteon for B+: Growth set is gaining some traction, though shallow coverage and the omnipresent Chansey keep it from becoming massively threatening, so long as Chansey is played well and Jolteon picks the wrong HP for coverage.

 

Trapinch for C: The definition of "niche", this guy does its one job (killing Chansey) incredibly well and can enable other lesser pokemon to sweep once the enemy's blob has been killed. Offensive teams without Chansey, however, absolutely ruin the little genius.

 

Cacturne for C: Again, niche but usable. One of the few pokemon with Spikes in the current meta, and its resistance to common attacks from Metagross, Gyarados, and Aerodactyl can help fill in defensive holes on a team. Unfortunately, its defenses are rather papery outside of its useful resistances and other spikers (Skarm, Forre, Cloyster) all boast similar effectiveness against the tiers top sweepers.

 

Tentacruel for D: Imo, it's a bit more lowly than Cacturne, boasting little in the way of healing, resistances, and support moves (yay, Rapid Spin) and coming up short against tons of opponents. Poison typing is an absolute curse with the popularity of EQ/Psychic Metagross, DD/EQ Gyara, Espeon/Zam/Starmie, and the myriad of other sweepers who can hit it for SE damage.

[R3TR0NIX]

any thoughts on Ludicolo? wanting to know peoples opinion

[bigbangattack]

Nobody has thoughts atm we are waiting for a possible tier reset with the new items

[Liberalisme]

idk where to post this but is counter chansey the new cancer in this game?

[XPLOZ]

My analysis of the OU metagame so far :

 

Before Choice Scarf and Spec :

The metagame was becoming very good. A kind of stability has been established. Special attackers were weak, but we balanced it by banning those huge walls (Bliss and Lax), who were pretty undecent in a meta where we have a mix of mechanisms from different gens. There was still a controversial topic : Chansey. Indeed, lots of people were arguing that, like her old sister Bliss, this thing was cancerous for our meta. I'll continue to argue that this is not true. Chansey is an incredible support, but players are finding more and more ways to beat it, which makes Chansey becoming sometimes a bait. I called Venu Growth some time ago and see where it is now : it's a looot played, so that Chansey had to change her moveset (Toxic => Twave). On the other hand, other pokemons are happy to see a Twave Chansey : Jolt, Rhydon... ... And that's not all. You also have this trapper : Trapinch, which is imo a lot more leggit than Dugtrio because the player must do big compromises to insert this pokemon in a Teambuild. It brings stability more than unhealthiness. At last, you can even play trick users to deal with Chansey.

Thereby, some people will prefer to rely on other special walls : we see those Gardevoirs, Porygons (a lot), Bulky Jolts, Ludicolos, even Arcanines... and it actually creates diversity.

 

With Choice Scarf/Spec :

Those items are around for a while, and what I can see (I play a lot OU) is that it isn't bad at all for the meta. It just offer other possibilities, but the meta is still stable. About Scarf users, you just have to check them. This isn't very hard, because Walls will basically prefer to deal with them than with Choice Banders. Life Orb will break walls, but not Choice Scarf.

Secondly, I was afraid of the implementation of Choice Spec in our meta. I was already seeing Chansey becoming the only reliable wall against Choice Spec users. That's not really true. You can actually deal with those pokemons if you have a good teambuild, with nice synergies and resistances. A Choice Spec user won't be able to spam a move, like Surf or Psychic. While good special walls can still check them, some pokemons, like Ludicolos or Metagross will wall them hard and even trap them (Metagross pursuit). So they have to be very careful. Finally, the special offensive side is more an option than before, which is great.

 

So, should we reset this meta ?

I don't think so. At least we should wait for the implementation of others items like Life Orb. But right now, I see no reason of making a huge reset. I will talk about the Ubers one by one, and I'll give my opinion on them.

Blissey : it should'nt be unbanned. It has nothing to do with the implementation of Choice Spec. Bliss will still wall to death every single special attacker, and it will be a lot harder to deal with than Chansey because Blissey has got much more versatility.

Snorlax : it should be tested in OU. Indeed, this thing was mainly banned because it could directly punish users of special attackers, while walling them like a king. He was really too strong in a meta without Choice Specs, Focus Blast and other stuff. Now that Choice Spec is here, Snorlax can be crippled, while he doesn't have a reliable recovery move.

Gengar : it shouldn't be unbanned. It had an anwsome versatility, destroying entire teams because the opponent had always difficulties to check his moveset. Now, Gengar can even use those new items so it offers new possibilities for him. Gengar can't be unbanned if Bliss isn't unbanned. As I don't think that Bliss would be a good thing in our meta, Gengar wouldn't too.

Dragons : They should not be unbanned. They are still strong as fuck, nothing really changed. Yes I agree that now, Choice Scarfers will be able to revenge kill a bit more the Dragons, but this argument is not very convincing, because Dragons themselves can be Choice Scarfers. Dragons were a lot used as CBanders (mostly Dragonite because Salam had LOTS of other possibilities, like beeing a stall himself) and they will still do massive damage with their CB. DDancers are a bit easier to check with some CScarfers around, but that's all.

Dugtrio : It shouldn't be unbannd. It can RK less things, because of those CScarfers around. But in my opinion, as far as we don't have a Team Preview, it's unhealthy. We already have this trapper for Chansey which brings stability (Trapinch, u remembah ?). That said, if we bring back Bliss, we might consider to bring back Dug because Trapinch won't be viable anymore. (=> see how we must pay close attention to unbanning things, because it creates chains).

Ttar : It shouldn't be unbanned. It is too strong and it cripples too much the special offensive side of the metagame, even more now with the CScarf. If we bring back this monster, say goodbye to those Cminders and stuff (thinking about CSpec users with psychic...), which is a pity. 

Wobbu : lel no, the definition of unhealthiness .

Mewtwo : Yo unban it, it's not even OP.

 

In conclusion, I propose initially to test out Snorlax in OU : alone. It's the most leggit unban right now and I really think that we can keep a kind of stability in our metagame.

Making a reset will only have a negative impact. In a game where we have to farm a lot, we have to keep the metagame as stable as we can, if we want the game to stay/be competitive.

Edited April 22, 2016 by XPLOZ

[Robofiend]

I totally agree with you, XPLOZ, we've been kicking around this idea internally as more of the community and council has come out against unbanning things like Tyranitar and Gengar.

[LuisPocho]

I have seen more trick banders that actual choice specials... I mean, special attackers that use trick as the first move in the match

Edited April 22, 2016 by LuisPocho

[DoubleJ]

So Wade Garreth my friend, what you going to do? It's been a little while and we've gotten like zero word from the council about what they actually are trying to make happen.

[Robofiend]

So Wade Garreth my friend, what you going to do? It's been a little while and we've gotten like zero word from the council about what they actually are trying to make happen.

 

I totally agree with you, XPLOZ, we've been kicking around this idea internally as more of the community and council has come out against unbanning things like Tyranitar and Gengar.

 

literally just gave you an update lmao

[DoubleJ]

literally just gave you an update lmao

 

You know better than I that that means absolutely nothing lol, 'we've been kicking around the idea of not unbanning stuff'. Give me some meat and potatoes not the damn carrots from last night. 

[codylramey]

Tmw chansey has higher usage than blissy. When did we get evolite

[Gruul]

1 hour ago, codylramey said:

Tmw chansey has higher usage than blissy. When did we get evolite

my noob guess:

a) many ou players do not have blissey yet and thereforestill use chansey

b) people are afraid of evolving since they could get a useless Blissey if it gets back to ubers

c) it was the first tournament after reset and some people may not have known or didn't have time to evolve/breed for Blissey

[R3TR0NIX]

Ok I waited for months. Any thoughts about Ludicolo?

[suigin]

Flygon for A tier:With the inclusion of Scarf this Pokemon got a massive buff. It has great typing with a nearly unresisted STAB Combination in Ground/Dragon while also being good defensively with two immunities to incredibly common offensive types (electric and ground), 3 resists including the common fire and rock types, it has sizeable stats all around and a great arsenal of moves that grant him enough coverage to do what he does best, clean up and revenge kill, it can switch into the common DD users and OHKO them after they boost, as well as present a big threat to any of the 130 base speed tier pokemon.

[DoubleJ]

Snorlax for S Rank: While it isn't inherently broken like it used to be (Curse = Win Button), Snorlax still boasts an incredible move repertoire, powerful stabs, and the bulk to take anything not named STAB Fighting. Body Slam paralysis is also an incredible support option considering Snorlax can just spam a strong STAB and hope it cripples a counter. It also can run Surf to eliminate its best counter, which is Rhydon, and it can keep the common Metagross switch-in from happening because of EQ. Pursuit offers the best team support due to the ability to easily remove Starmie + Alakazam, which are a couple scary late game sweepers. Even Bulky Starmie has trouble against switching out on a Pursuit and fighting through Spikes throughout a match. Curse lost some steam due to the prevalence of phasers (fucking finally) and also Life Orb / CB sweepers like Heracross, Blaziken, and Machamp, but if you play smart and remove these threats Curselax is #1. 

 

tl;dr Not banworthy, but certainly meta defining. 

[Robofiend]

10 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Snorlax for S Rank: While it isn't inherently broken like it used to be (Curse = Win Button), Snorlax still boasts an incredible move repertoire, powerful stabs, and the bulk to take anything not named STAB Fighting. Body Slam paralysis is also an incredible support option considering Snorlax can just spam a strong STAB and hope it cripples a counter. It also can run Surf to eliminate its best counter, which is Rhydon, and it can keep the common Metagross switch-in from happening because of EQ. Pursuit offers the best team support due to the ability to easily remove Starmie + Alakazam, which are a couple scary late game sweepers. Even Bulky Starmie has trouble against switching out on a Pursuit and fighting through Spikes throughout a match. Curse lost some steam due to the prevalence of phasers (fucking finally) and also Life Orb / CB sweepers like Heracross, Blaziken, and Machamp, but if you play smart and remove these threats Curselax is #1. 

 

tl;dr Not banworthy, but certainly meta defining. 

 

I'd like to see more discussion on Lax before I place it - I don't have an opinion because I haven't been on much lately.

 

[DoubleJ]

2 minutes ago, Robofiend said:

 

I'd like to see more discussion on Lax before I place it - I don't have an opinion because I haven't been on much lately.

 

Slacker

[Robofiend]

5 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Slacker

what can i say, camping and biking more fun than pokemon 

Edited May 31, 2016 by Robofiend