Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Noad

[NU Discussion] Zangoose

Recommended Posts

I mean you called Electrode bad too Orange. Mawile definitely has a place on NU stall teams. Pure Steel type is fucking awesome and it walls any Zangoose set as well as being able to switch into Rock Slides. Superpower, EQ weakness hurts but thats why you have defensive cores. His BB does enough to scare most common NY sweepers away like Sharpedo, Kabutops or Angoose and Pain Split + Toxic is quite wonderful.

Resisting Steel, Dark, Rock and Normal is more than enough reason to use Mawile.

Edit: Zangoose is pretty good in UU and it has been used multiple times in UU. People definitelt have Gooses

Edited by ThinkNice

Share this post


Link to post

if you are running Endure + Swords Dance you have only two moves left, rip coverage, lets not forget that Scyther and Buzz have access to Quick Attack, so your point about salac is garbage.

You Goose surive a Tangela Giga? at what cost? can you easily setup a swords dance and go sweep with it?

[spoiler]
I'm implying a switch in against a Tangela Giga Drain here.
4 SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zangoose: 64-76 (43.2 - 51.3%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO

You Swords Dance
Tangela Giga Drain again, you are at 20% health, +2

+2 252 Atk Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 117-138 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

too bad, you survive two giga drains for nothing.
[/spoiler]

 

I disagree that Hitmontop is the only revenge killer, is one of the most effective one, but clearly someone is missing the potetial of lots of pokes.

I was just pointing out that Banette can stop Goose in a 1v1 situation from a sweep if not Lum (since it runs leftovers, salac and lum at the same time)

 

[spoiler]
fun fact of the thread: Hitmontop usage isn't base after one tournament, but Zangoose 10% is.
[/spoiler]

 

Well, when the first UU came out, my first battles pointed out that Kangaskhan was too op, then I realize that it is not that uber in UU. Earlier discussion IMO. I would see after 3 to 5 tournaments to see how usage it gets.

 

The coverage is still insane with flail/low kick. And since you're a fan of coverage, let's talk about how Ebuzz likes to run psychic/tbolt/signal beam/hp grass. Running quick attack means sacking one of these and apparently quick attack would seem only viable for Zangoose I feel. So Ebuzz has a lot more to lose than gain by this method. Even then, say that Zangoose isn't flail set but carries salac, then Ebuzz qa won't kill Zangoose if it is just under 25%. GGnore. Scyther would carry SD / Wing Attack / Brick Break / Return or Double Edge since the last is one of its most powerful moves. Unless it is a CB set, then you can carry QA but let's be honest, CB set is pretty bad on Scyther especially in this meta. 

 

Judging from the top 10 usage, does it look like Pikachu or Jynx can switch into anything with ease? Nope, but yet the former is quite strong and the latter got banned (along with other reasons). So I hope you finally do get my point where sweepers don't switch into any attack, in general. You're also assuming that whenever Zangoose switches in, it is on a attack and not a status move like Toxic but with Immunity, no problem.

 

Again, Banette can stop Zangoose 1v1, but does it serve a larger purpose than that? No, I don't think so. It's like saying Hitmontop or Machamp can stop Ttar once it starts to set up, but again does that serve a bigger purpose than that? It doesn't. Since you're a fan of usage, then let me tell you that there were 0 banettes in that tourney. 

 

Shedinja is a strong NU and, if Zangoose does not run firepunch, he is 100% countered.

If you run Low Kick for Aggron instead of Brick Break, Mawile counters you completly as well.

 

The coverage might be great but once again not perfect: Poliwrath, Hitmontop and Primeape can switch in and chase Zangoose away. And getting Zangoose on the field is not an easy task, why taking him out of field needs to be easy?

 

 

Zangoose is not bulky. 73 hp/60def/60spdef is nothing.

 

If you think Zangoose isn't that strong or can be countered easily, then I think that we can stop here since you probably don't have anything to worry. 

 

252 Atk Zangoose Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primeape: 120-142 (85.7 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

 

In what world is this switching in with ease?

 

Also, assuming Zangoose SD's when Poliwrath switches in:

 

+2 252 Atk Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 120-142 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

0 Atk Poliwrath Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zangoose: 114-134 (77 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

I agree with you on Hitmontop.

 

If you're looking into base stats and determining bulk only on that basis and not typing, then that's ignorant of you because base stats are meaningless. 

 

Zangoose 73 hp / 60 def / 60 spdef

 

Armaldo 75 hp / 70 def / 80 spdef

 

252 SpA Golduck Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Armaldo: 158-188 (105.3 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 SpA Golduck Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zangoose: 99-117 (66.8 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Do you see how a pokemon with inferior base stats can survive a hit? This is because of its typing. 

Edited by NikhilR

Share this post


Link to post

Its funny how you keep saying 'in this meta'. Thought we went over that point. Also Banette is pretty good idk why people are underselling it. Its a massive stallbreaker and nothing likes WoW. I've used it very effectively in PTS and usage is similair to what was seen in the PTS but people are using way less offense, which only benefits Banette even more. It boggles my mind that you would say that Banettes serves no other purpose than will o wisping a physical attacker and then dying.

Also Nik people arent fucking dumb they know Goose can take a hit it just generally cant take two and its not fast enough to say it will only need to take one hit. That calc was a it shamrful and you should just remove it.

Share this post


Link to post

Its funny how you keep saying 'in this meta'. Thought we went over that point. Also Banette is pretty good idk why people are underselling it. Its a massive stallbreaker and nothing likes WoW. I've used it very effectively in PTS and usage is similair to what was seen in the PTS but people are using way less offense, which only benefits Banette even more. It boggles my mind that you would say that Banettes serves no other purpose than will o wisping a physical attacker and then dying.

Also Nik people arent fucking dumb they know Goose can take a hit it just generally cant take two and its not fast enough to say it will only need to take one hit. That calc was a it shamrful and you should just remove it.

 

It's good for breaking stall, but not for offense. I think you can run a CM set on banette but honestly, I feel like there'd be better candidates for CMing. Wow is easy switch in for things like Camerupt, Absol can switch into Banette with ease (except for wow) and pursuit trap it. Ninetales' flamethrower power boosts by switching into wow and gives it a free CM.

 

Yeah I get that it is shameful, but I'm tired of people underselling Zangoose's "bulk" because of its normal typing. 

Share this post


Link to post

I think you just give a different definition to'bulk', 'bulk' definitely doesn't mean being 2 shot by most things. 'It can take a hit and set up', that's it, wouldn't call it bulk. Also CM Banette is pretty good but was referring to the Taunt set there. It's a more offensive spinblocker than Sableye honestly. I haven't seen any Ninetailes tho I can see CM set being powerful. Does fast Wisp also not stop Goose in its tracks?

Share this post


Link to post

I think you just give a different definition to'bulk', 'bulk' definitely doesn't mean being 2 shot by most things. 'It can take a hit and set up', that's it, wouldn't call it bulk. Also CM Banette is pretty good but was referring to the Taunt set there. It's a more offensive spinblocker than Sableye honestly. I haven't seen any Ninetailes tho I can see CM set being powerful. Does fast Wisp also not stop Goose in its tracks?

 

I guess my definition is different. My point is that Zangoose is one of those pokemon which is a guaranteed 2 or 3hko from special hits at the moment, which is quite good enough for me. I think Banette does a better job at spin blocking, not just offensively, but because most of the current spin blockers we have are physical so wow helps in crippling them as well, something that Sableye can't do. But like I said, the usefulness of Banette would entirely depend on the playstyle. Ninetales can be scary especially if it has hp grass and the only means to take it down mostly is physically and with access to wow, it could also look powerful.

 

Wisp can definitely stop Zangoose, but I feel that Ninetales would be a better candidate for doing that since it's faster. If Zangoose carries Lum, then at +2 Iron Tail is a 2hko on Banette but the upside is that if you have a faster pokemon than zangoose, then it won't be able to sweep you, unless you're running a stall team.

Share this post


Link to post

Ah sorry I meant Wisp on Tailes if that wasn't clear. Also Grudge could be the ultimate troll letting Goose take you down with Return RIP Return PP lmao

Share this post


Link to post

It's good for breaking stall, but not for offense. I think you can run a CM set on banette but honestly, I feel like there'd be better candidates for CMing. Wow is easy switch in for things like Camerupt, Absol can switch into Banette with ease (except for wow) and pursuit trap it. Ninetales' flamethrower power boosts by switching into wow and gives it a free CM.

 

Yeah I get that it is shameful, but I'm tired of people underselling Zangoose's "bulk" because of its normal typing. 

I play thunderwave + disable on my banette and I think it is a better option than wow for all the reasons you stated. Banette is the best ghost type when it comes to physical bulk (after dusclops).

 

 

 

As for Poliwrath, he can 1HKO Zangoose while Zangoose can only 3OHKO him.

If Zangoose runs CB, he is then stuck on return and switch ins options are wide open.

The NU tier got a enourmous amount of wishers and residual damage from CB Zangoose is quite manageable imo.

Share this post


Link to post

I play thunderwave + disable on my banette and I think it is a better option than wow for all the reasons you stated. Banette is the best ghost type when it comes to physical bulk (after dusclops).

 

 

 

As for Poliwrath, he can 1HKO Zangoose while Zangoose can only 3OHKO him.

If Zangoose runs CB, he is then stuck on return and switch ins options are wide open.

The NU tier got a enourmous amount of wishers and residual damage from CB Zangoose is quite manageable imo.

 

Twave/Disable is quite nice tbh, I'll try making a bulky and see how effective it is.

 

Also, can you post some calcs or tell me what spread you run on Poli? 

 

Ah sorry I meant Wisp on Tailes if that wasn't clear. Also Grudge could be the ultimate troll letting Goose take you down with Return RIP Return PP lmao

 

Yeah wow tales would stop it cold. Grudge would be funny af :)

Share this post


Link to post

Also, can you post some calcs or tell me what spread you run on Poli? 

Ofc,

[spoiler]

Jolly Zangoose:

+2 252 Atk Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Poliwrath: 166-196 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Poliwrath: 84-99 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Poliwrath Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zangoose: 158-188 (106.7 - 127%) -- guaranteed OHKO

[/spoiler]

Adamant Zangoose would counter Poliwrath here.

Edit: I tried a more defensive set for Poliwrath as impish. He won't be kill after +2 SD on adamant Zangoose but he wont be able to 1HKO Zangoose either. But in combination with Sableye Fake Out, he can definetly take out Zangoose without dying.

[spoiler]

Adamant Zangoose:

+2 252+ Atk Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 132+ Def Poliwrath: 145-172 (73.6 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

128 Atk Poliwrath Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zangoose: 128-152 (86.4 - 102.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Sableye Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zangoose: 18-22 (12.1 - 14.8%) -- possible 7HKO

[/spoiler]

[hr]

I will also add Primeape (faster with 224 ev speed):

[spoiler]

Jolly Zangoose: 252 Atk Zangoose Return vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Primeape: 120-142 (74 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Adamant Zangoose: 252+ Atk Zangoose Return vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Primeape: 132-156 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

116 Atk Primeape Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zangoose: 150-176 (101.3 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

[/spoiler]

Choice Band set would counter Primeape here.

[hr]

Edited by lamerb

Share this post


Link to post

I mean you called Electrode bad too Orange. Mawile definitely has a place on NU stall teams. Pure Steel type is fucking awesome and it walls any Zangoose set as well as being able to switch into Rock Slides. Superpower, EQ weakness hurts but thats why you have defensive cores. His BB does enough to scare most common NY sweepers away like Sharpedo, Kabutops or Angoose and Pain Split + Toxic is quite wonderful.

Resisting Steel, Dark, Rock and Normal is more than enough reason to use Mawile.

Edit: Zangoose is pretty good in UU and it has been used multiple times in UU. People definitelt have Gooses

Ok i need to anser for that,

 

Idk if you allready played mawile, but even in NU it's a SEVERAL shit.

When i decided to breed this pokémon, i was thinking intimidate + steel coverage is a great combo, in fact, mawile can wall only bird.

Zangoose brick break will 2HKO easily and what mawil will do? until brick break / crunch it has any offensive moves. And get a free set up on every fight type pokemons. +1 252+ Atk Zangoose Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 104-124 (66.2 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Its special def make it so frail even on x0.5 attacks. (252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 57-68 (36.3 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)

 

Painsplit isn't really a solution for stalling. Offensivly what mawile can do? it as any stab, ampharos shits on it like everything that is not frail to crunch / brick break

Share this post


Link to post

Ok i need to anser for that,

 

Idk if you allready played mawile, but even in NU it's a SEVERAL uguu.

When i decided to breed this pokémon, i was thinking intimidate + steel coverage is a great combo, in fact, mawile can wall only bird.

Zangoose brick break will 2HKO easily and what mawil will do? until brick break / crunch it has any offensive moves. And get a free set up on every fight type pokemons. +1 252+ Atk Zangoose Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 104-124 (66.2 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Its special def make it so frail even on x0.5 attacks. (252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 57-68 (36.3 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)

 

Painsplit isn't really a solution for stalling. Offensivly what mawile can do? it as any stab, ampharos shits on it like everything that is not frail to crunch / brick break

I agree that Mawile has several downfalls, but on the other hand hsi presence forces Zangoose to run Brick Break which means he won't have Low Kick to kill Aggron.

Share this post


Link to post

132.4% - 157.2% from a +2 brick break zangoose (jolly)

66.2% - 80% without a boost from zangoose

this is against 0 hp investment aggron

no matter what happens aggron cannot switch into zangoose

Share this post


Link to post

132.4% - 157.2% from a +2 brick break zangoose (jolly)

66.2% - 80% without a boost from zangoose

this is against 0 hp investment aggron

no matter what happens aggron cannot switch into zangoose

I am not denying that. But once Zangoose kills something, Aggron could come in as a revenge kill if Zangoose does not run lowkick.

Share this post


Link to post

Isn't that what the new policy of using usage is all about? Looking into the pokemon that are too good to not use? The one that clearly will get always a high usage cause they are just too good. IMHO that should be first criteria, we can theorize all day, in the end we will end up with personal opinions and clearly the NU council wants to ban Zangoose (isn't it the 3rd time you guys brought it up for discussion?).

 

I don't want to suggest a Hitmontop ban, cause I stated before, it is too early for any assumptions, Hitmontop can fall in usage in the next tournaments

 

[spoiler]

With our slow building team meta, is pretty easy to use old comps to join tournament until you have enough money/time to make a new one, clearly old UU pokes will have a higher usage at the first tournaments.

[/spoiler]

 

 

P.S.: Lovely work in the OP Noad, finally someone put the members opinions in the op at the start of the Thread to help the discussion.

their was a UU discussion thread for zangoose and for a while it came close to being banned. one of the biggest differences here is a lot of the sweepers who outspeed can not 1hko and we dont have bulky oma, slowking, steelix, scizor, and the like in nu to give it trouble.

 

also agreed that noad made a lovely thread and deserves a standing ovation. 

 

It's good for breaking stall, but not for offense. I think you can run a CM set on banette but honestly, I feel like there'd be better candidates for CMing. Wow is easy switch in for things like Camerupt, Absol can switch into Banette with ease (except for wow) and pursuit trap it. Ninetales' flamethrower power boosts by switching into wow and gives it a free CM.

 

Yeah I get that it is shameful, but I'm tired of people underselling Zangoose's "bulk" because of its normal typing. 

banette can 2hko absol with return, meanwhile absol can not 1hko with pursuit if banette does not switch.

 

assuming max def on banette cause wall and cb adamant absol

252+ Atk Choice Band burned Absol Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Banette: 54-66 (31.5 - 38.5%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Absol Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Banette: 108-128 (63.1 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Banette Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Absol: 66-78 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO
 

but ninetails thing is valid and scary, and camerupt laughs at banette. 

 

Ok i need to anser for that,

 

Idk if you allready played mawile, but even in NU it's a SEVERAL uguu.

When i decided to breed this pokémon, i was thinking intimidate + steel coverage is a great combo, in fact, mawile can wall only bird.

Zangoose brick break will 2HKO easily and what mawil will do? until brick break / crunch it has any offensive moves. And get a free set up on every fight type pokemons. +1 252+ Atk Zangoose Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 104-124 (66.2 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Its special def make it so frail even on x0.5 attacks. (252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 57-68 (36.3 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO)

 

Painsplit isn't really a solution for stalling. Offensivly what mawile can do? it as any stab, ampharos shits on it like everything that is not frail to crunch / brick break

mawile can superfang + sleep talk with either toxic or a offensive move like iron tail or crunch for final attack. sleep tlak for healing/status absorbtion. and firelion has show us how good super fang is at wall breaking/attrition. combined with mawiles bulk and intimidation switchin's i would definitely say this is viable. 

Share this post


Link to post

Low Kick on Goose is needed for stuff like Aggron and Relicanth. It's inferior to BB


Actually, to be precise Low Kick is better on Lapras, Walrein, Metang and Aggron (also Golem for Iron Tail miss) but notably worse on Relicanth on which it has only 40 Base Power. However, since Lapras and Walrein most often than not will take massive damage from +2 Return having Relicanth not walling you might actually be reasonable to have the static 75 power. I don't know, I guess you could argue both ways.

Share this post


Link to post

So far Goose isn't seeming that relevant, despite the spam factor. NU is really offensive, Hitmontop is everywhere and being made of glass (esp, having no resists) doesn't serve it so well. It's not that Hitmontop is a check, it's that it prevents SD or Flail from even being worth considering.

 

I also think it's worth mentioning that Missy will be moved down soon and that will be a game changer too.

Share this post


Link to post

Even though Zangoose is a top tier threat with great coverage and great sweeping potential, the NU council doesn't think it fits the Uber Offensive characteristics right now. The NU tier, being so agressive, doesn't allow Zangoose to shine and therefore this pokemon is not banworthy. This discussion can be locked for the time being.

Edited by lamerb

Share this post


Link to post

I'v been using Zangoose a little.. I just always seem to have a hard time getting a SD in, and also there are a bunch of faster pokes that stop me sweeping. I thought it would be good tbh, maybe I need to use it better.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy.