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[NU Discussion] Zangoose

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Popular Sets - (Courtesy of OldKeith):
 
Standard SD Sweeper
Jolly 252 Atk/ 252 Speed @ Lum Berry
Swords Dance, Return, Iron Tail, Brick Break
 
Choice Banded
Jolly 252 Atk/ 252 Speed @ Choice Band
Quick Attack, Return, Iron Tail, Brick Break
 
Flail Sweeper
Adamant/Jolly 252 Atk/ 252 Speed @ Salac Berry/Leichi Berry
Swords Dance, Substitute/Endure, Flail, Iron Tail/Brick Break
 
Overview
The main argument against Zangoose's place in the NU tier is that the versatility of the sets that it can run (listed above) means that by the time you are able to successfully scout it, the damage is already done. A misprediction or a misplay can have disastrous consequences for a player, as there is arguably no safe switch ins for Zangoose. 
Surprisingly though, Zangoose did not see a high level of usage in the first NU tournament (usage here), although this could be down to the fact that the tier is new and threats are still being discovered by players. 
Ultimately the NU council would like to bring this Pokemon forward for discussion with the players to decide the future of Zangoose and to discuss the pros and cons of it's place in the NU tier. 
 
Excerpts from the Tier Council forum
 

 

Not gonna participate in the off topic talk, but I agree Nik about that everyone who actually wants to build a winning team and has read forums or has any competitive knowledge - they know Zangoose is a top tier threat in NU now, by far. I would hate to see multiple NU tournaments followed each other by Zangoose sweep and mind you, this is a Pokemon you have no idiot proof counters against. I would have voted for an instaban if it wasn't for the I don't know how exactly will the metagame look. Maybe Zangoose is not the most reliable sweeper after all?

Either way, I feel like Zangoose might actually fit two ban criterias but not either one completely clearly. First one is the obvious, Offensive Uber Characteristics. It can sweep with little or no effort. After Swords Dance is up, only faster priority will stop this or assuming the faster Pokemon has a lot of HP left (and this is questionable if Zangoose gets hit on Salac Range). Pretty much everything else slower just dies at +2. Like legit, all dem Armaldos, Golems and Cradilys need to be Impish 252/252 to live a +2 Iron Tail. And might not if Adamant Zangoose. Except some bulky ass Relicanth won't die to +2 BB but whatever. This is the part I'm not convinced Zangoose will be as top tier threat if people run a lot of the rare faster Pokemon than Zangoose and highly offensive teams anyways. Then Zangoose might not look like that good.

 

This leads to the second ban criteria, in my opinion. Zangoose to me seems the worst abuser of any defensive based team as it is has legit no counters at all from the defensive Pokemon, unlike some other top tier sweepers. Pikachu also is hard/impossible to counter but the lack of set up move makes Pikachu's sweeping less effortless as well it gets destroyed by any move, almost. Even priority hits. (unless Espeed kills, but I digress). But yeah, the way Zangoose makes the game based on my observations go around nothing but fast hyper offense - then Zangoose might not look that strong - but the way it shits on defensive/bulky teams with Swords Dance set is just my opinion something that the tier should be better off not having.


TL;DR Only kinds of meta evolving that would save Zangoose from being 2gud is the tier going even more speedy hyper offensive teambuild which makes defensive teams even less viable than Zangoose already does.

 

 

 

If it's alright, I'd like to post my opinion on what the NU meta will look like and why I feel Zangoose may/may not be banned after the first tournament. The NU meta will start off with all kinds of playstyles being available. You will have your stall, balanced and then your hyper offense. The most common pokemon that you will see or are a must in all NU teams will most likely be the following : Hitmontop , Bellossom / Tangela , Sharpedo. This is 100% my opinion but I'm very sure that the first tournament will be looking like this, or the upcoming tournaments. 

 

With Hitmontop around, Zangoose will hardly look like a threat because of how it gets easily revenge killed and how it can't switch in often. But when Hitmontop has fainted, I'd like to see how the rest of the tier responds to Zangoose. It's on this occasion we get to see how strong Zangoose is. The situation for me, reminds me of Scizor vs Slowking. The only true reliable counter to Scizor was Slowking, and since Slowking was seeing a massive usage, it looked like Scizor wasn't much of a problem. But the moment Slowking got banned, a large no. of people voted for a ban on Scizor. This imo is wrong because a pokemon that is too strong for the tier, shouldn't be allowed to stay in just for one pokemon. 

 

 

Damage Calculations

Anyone is welcome to contribute these and I will add them to this section. 

 

 

Please keep all discussion on topic. 

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I just wanna point out my arguments as "the second ban criteria" is being unhealthy to the metagame, namely to defensive Pokemon. If doesn't sweep with ease (which I feel like it does) then at least I visualized it limiting the metagame but seeing bulky Pokemon being very used now I don't think I could argue for this. However, let's remember we have only played just one NU tournament so far.

I might make a bit more clear and professional post as this was a bit of more "draft" kind of when I got time. :D

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IMHO, the usage speaks for itself.

 

Isn't that easy to bring Zangoose against something and setup. Zangoose is made of paper and will fall to almost anything in two hits.

 

Base 90 Speed is kind of me, Scyther and Electabuzz can come in and revenge kill Zangoose easily and both have priority, so salac isn't that strong.

 

Banette can be a nice option to deal with it, immune to its stab, access to WoW

+2 252 Atk Zangoose Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Banette: 134-158 (78.3 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(it is a lot of damage, but after a wow zangoose is pretty much dead weight, if it makes too much pressure in your team it may be a good choice to neutralize it)

 

Is Zangoose an amazing sweeper? Yes, it is. Does it deserve a ban? Right now, I don't think so.

 

[spoiler]

Hitmontop had more than 50% usage and you guys bringing zangoose to discussion? Why the fuck we have usage?

[/spoiler]

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[spoiler]

Hitmontop had more than 50% usage and you guys bringing zangoose to discussion? Why the fuck we have usage?

[/spoiler]

 

One tournament man.

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Hitmontop had more than 50% usage and you guys bringing zangoose to discussion? Why the fuck we have usage?

 

Although I appreciate your earlier points, usage does not determine if a pokemon is banworthy or not. If you feel hitmontop should be discussed in a separate thread, please let us know.

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One tournament man.

The same argument applies the other way around; Why start discussing banning something after only one tournament?

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Although I appreciate your earlier points, usage does not determine if a pokemon is banworthy or not. If you feel hitmontop should be discussed in a separate thread, please let us know.

That's not what he meant. He meant why is Zangoose a problem with Hitmontop at 50%.

[spoiler]right?[/spoiler]

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IMHO, the usage speaks for itself.

 

Isn't that easy to bring Zangoose against something and setup. Zangoose is made of paper and will fall to almost anything in two hits.

 

Base 90 Speed is kind of me, Scyther and Electabuzz can come in and revenge kill Zangoose easily and both have priority, so salac isn't that strong.

 

Banette can be a nice option to deal with it, immune to its stab, access to WoW

+2 252 Atk Zangoose Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Banette: 134-158 (78.3 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(it is a lot of damage, but after a wow zangoose is pretty much dead weight, if it makes too much pressure in your team it may be a good choice to neutralize it)

 

Is Zangoose an amazing sweeper? Yes, it is. Does it deserve a ban? Right now, I don't think so.

 

[spoiler]

Hitmontop had more than 50% usage and you guys bringing zangoose to discussion? Why the fuck we have usage?

[/spoiler]

U do realize most Swords Dance users have lum berrie right?

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Although I appreciate your earlier points, usage does not determine if a pokemon is banworthy or not. If you feel hitmontop should be discussed in a separate thread, please let us know.

But usage yusually doe reflect this with at least ~20%. But like stated there has been just one tournament.

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for wow argument, i think i should point out that between lum and the dozens of heal bell/aroma pokes in nu that wow doesnt stop anything. only slow you down.

 

for usage, yea we could use more. which is why more nu tourneys coming. also guys, every time a update is about to role out the mods slow down tourneys, this might be a sign.

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Banette can be a nice option to deal with it, immune to its stab, access to WoW

+2 252 Atk Zangoose Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Banette: 134-158 (78.3 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(it is a lot of damage, but after a wow zangoose is pretty much dead weight, if it makes too much pressure in your team it may be a good choice to neutralize it)

 

 

U do realize most Swords Dance users have lum berrie right?

And v1kTwjh.png

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And v1kTwjh.png

The assumption is that it will it. It obviously has a greater chance to hit and it makes more sense to discuss about when it hits don't you think? Assume it hits all the time for discussion purposes.

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Zangoose's coverage is not perfect; either Aggron, Solrock or Shedinja is gonna be able to safe switch on him once scouted.

Hitmontop, Poliwarth and Primeape are decents switch in options without scouting.

Torment/Disable on Banette and Sableye are quite effective as well.

Giga Drain tangela can manage too.

Diglet can revenge kill easily.

[hr]

The NU tier is overall a really agressive tier with a lot of threats. Stalling is barely possible, so it is more likely that Zangoose will have  hard time setting up anyways.

[hr]

He is not ban worthy imo. But if he does get ban, my shuckle will be really happy XD

 

Edit: When I say that Zangoose's coverage is not perfect, I am basically trying to say that I see him more as a wall breaker than a sweeper. Once he kills something, he is most likely scouted and it is then easier to deal with him.

Edited by lamerb

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Edit: When I say that Zangoose's coverage is not perfect, I am basically trying to say that I see him more as a wall breaker than a sweeper. Once he kills something, he is most likely scouted and it is then easier to deal with him.

 

I can counter argue with your previous points, but for time's sake we'll say ok to those. Now this last statement kinda sorta gets to me a tad. Basically you've rolled over saying Zangoose will kill something on your team. If that something is a wall, you are instantly put at a severe disadvantage considering most defensive walls in UU are a part of a core that supports their team from sweepers. 

 

If Zangoose has the ability to break any core in NU, shouldn't that be enough to consider a ban? Sure it's a wallbreaker, but the argument is whether it is too good of a wallbreaker. 

 

I believe it is too good. 

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IMHO, the usage speaks for itself.

 

Isn't that easy to bring Zangoose against something and setup. Zangoose is made of paper and will fall to almost anything in two hits.

 

Base 90 Speed is kind of me, Scyther and Electabuzz can come in and revenge kill Zangoose easily and both have priority, so salac isn't that strong.

 

Banette can be a nice option to deal with it, immune to its stab, access to WoW

+2 252 Atk Zangoose Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 4+ Def Banette: 134-158 (78.3 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

(it is a lot of damage, but after a wow zangoose is pretty much dead weight, if it makes too much pressure in your team it may be a good choice to neutralize it)

 

Is Zangoose an amazing sweeper? Yes, it is. Does it deserve a ban? Right now, I don't think so.

 

[spoiler]

Hitmontop had more than 50% usage and you guys bringing zangoose to discussion? Why the fuck we have usage?

[/spoiler]

 

The issue with Zangoose is that there's no way of knowing what set it is when it SDs. You bring your Ebuzz/Scyther for the revenge kill and it endures and activates salac at that point, then it becomes ggnore. Banette is only that useful at the moment with controlling the normal spam, but otherwise imo it doesn't have that much of a use. I could be wrong about this. 

 

Also you're underestimating Zangoose's bulk, mines survived a giga drain from tangela+flamethrower from ninetales. It may not be able to switch into anything but it can set up with ease and with its amazing coverage, take out almost the entire tier. There's just no way of knowing what set it is which makes Hitmontop the only and best revenge killer. 

 

 

Zangoose's coverage is not perfect; either Aggron, Solrock or Shedinja is gonna be able to safe switch on him once scouted.

Hitmontop, Poliwarth and Primeape are decents switch in options without scouting.

Torment/Disable on Banette and Sableye are quite effective as well.

Giga Drain tangela can manage too.

Diglet can revenge kill easily.

 

Aggron, Solrock get rekt by Low Kick / Iron Tail. I don't even think Shedinja is a proper viable answer.

 

Hitmontop is very good check, I won't mention counter because it takes quite a bit of damage with return and with no method of recovering health, the only thing the Zangoose user has to do is wait for it to get out of the picture. Primeape takes a hell lot of dmg while switching in, so again that would be more of a appropriate check since the best thing you can do is switch in on a +2. 

 

------------------------------------------

 

All I want to do is wait and see how things happen in the 2nd tournament because there could be a slight chance that Zangoose may have thrown some people off and that they were probably unaware of its strength. Hopefully tomorrow's NU tournament will give us a better view overall and you guys can post your opinions on it immediately. The sooner you guys can do this, the sooner we can come to a decision.

Edited by NikhilR

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I could start storytelling from the side that if I didn't miss an Iron Tail I would have got a full sweep of 6 with Zangoose while doing absolutely nothing prediction wise in the last NU tournament and I would have increased the usage of that thing there. But I'll just stop derailing.
 

 

Anyways, back on topic.

I kinda figured it would rise as a major concern of Zangoose's power that it is quite paper defensively. You cannot switch that in, yes. However, what is about Zangoose that it can make sweeps happen from nothing. It doesn't even need that amazing situation to set up itself, basically only two things: Opponent doesn't have a fighting-type move or opponent is not Choice Banded. (or weather but that's when other Pokemon should counter anyways, w/e). You can do the calculations yourself but because of the Normal-type Zangoose has the capability to live pretty much any standard hit and that's all that a Swords Dancer needs. However, the fear of Choice Band and losing a Pokemon can make the Swords Dance setting up at best a free turn and it's just gets better from there.

I think for a second, we shouldn't think we're the user of a Zangoose instead we're the ones playing against it. Imagine a Pokemon, which can turn your perfectly played game completely over in a situation where opponent left its Pokemon faint to get a Zangoose out there, it Swords Dances and you end up biting the dust while doing absolutely nothing wrong in the process. How would you feel if a match was taken that way from you? I acknowledge the miss chance of Iron Tail can oftentimes just flat out end the sweep, and 1/4 chance is actually quite a lot for that. But when it hits you realize you have nothing for this and your match is over. You could argue that a Pokemon with Iron Tail being part of its sweeping will actually fail more than it will prevail. If there is multiple Rock-type Pokemon, such as Armaldo and Cradily that might in fact be the case. However, I feel like this is a bit like of Evasion clause exists. You might beat a Pokemon spamming Evasion moves but when you lose to one while being not able to do anything in that matter against the player, then you feel like you don't deserve to lose. If you're going to your drawing board (team building) and after a Zangoose sweep you just realize that you could have made absolutely nothing to protect your team better from a Zangoose then I deem that really unfair for the player losing to a Zangoose.
 

 

Then the Choice Band set. Oh boy, I felt like I've even negated this whole beauty by rambling about the Swords Dance set but this thing... just kills. What +1 Return just punishes anything that doesn't resist it literally so hard it's unfair. And let's assume you actually switched something like Armaldo/Cradily/Golem in? Well you probably shouldn't because a Zangoose might have just got to +2 while you did nothing to it but if this prediction switch goes right then it's most of the time just Return spam from there. Much fun.


Zangoose removes two significant factors from competitive experience. 1) Teambuilding to limit a certain Pokemon 2) Preventing a Pokemon's power unless getting predicted on. Like I stated, Zangoose can make sweep happens from situations where opponent has done absolutely nothing wrong. I personally feel Salac is the way to go even for SD set to Quick Attack faster priority users than Zangoose which will not live unless they're in really high HP. So saying priority being a definitive answer to Zangoose, that is not true. The priority will either 1) not kill 2) and if the Zangoose is on the rage of possibly getting killed from the attack, it's already on Salac. So go figure how much you can teambuild against it.


So I guess if we need usage to prove something is good then go breed a Zangoose if you're a bad at predictions like I am and enjoy effortless sweeps. At least these are all based on my observations, so I just guess you have to take my word on it.


And before I end this statement, I just wanna address Hitmontop's meaning to Zangoose. IT IS NOT A COUNTER. At best you can revenge kill it with Mach if you have enough HP to live a + Quick Attack but it's a revenge killer more than a counter, because two CB Returns even when Intimidated will 2HKO a "Standard" Hitmontop. But hey, at least it makes CB set more viable over SD which I feel like is the superior one at the moment. But oh boi I can imagine only a CB Zangoose + a Psychic type combination...


And then some calcs because these are like... important. I thought of using an Adamant Zangoose as the Pokemon I'm using because 1) tanky Pokemon seem stronk 2) nothing really suddenly outspeeds Zangoose if it goes Jolly 3) Imagine being playing against a Zangoose user instead of being one.


[spoiler]

+2 252+ Atk Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 211-249 (89 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Lapras Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zangoose: 102-120 (68.9 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Zangoose Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 248-292 (104.6 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

 Lapras only works if the last Pokemon caused damage to Zangoose and it is bulky. Low Kick for SD set in my opinion isn't a good idea but for Choice Band set I deem it is and kinda tells me that Lapras is not a way to limit Zangoose's power with having it on its team.

 

 

+2 252+ Atk Zangoose Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Armaldo: 166-196 (91.2 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Zangoose Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cradily: 170-200 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Zangoose Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golem: 138-164 (73.7 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Here's the tricky part, though. Not being OHKOs a limiting thing to Zangoose? Can't denie that. But at the same time. 1) Is running Impish 252/252+ viable? Or even further, is it healthy? 2) When exactly is your dedicated tanks in full HP? Also I know Iron Tail has a shit accuracy but like the Evasion clause argument I had, the only way to hope a Zangoose sweep would end is positive RNG.


+2 252+ Atk Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sharpedo: 138-163 (94.5 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rapidash: 91-108 (65 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

+2 252+ Atk Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electabuzz: 108-127 (77.6 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+2 252+ Atk Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scyther: 84-99 (57.9 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

 Here's some stuff with +2 Quick Attack. Yes, faster priority than Zangoose will possibly end a Zangoose sweep but like I said: If Zangoose if on the range of possibly getting KOd then it might have Salac already. And this overall damage from Quick Attack is just... wheesh. I guess sweepers has higher chance of being in full HP than the tanks so I suppose these not being OHKOs is a factor though. But let's remember: If the Zangoose is at Salac, it could Return them and more so why should these Pokemon have priority moves in the first place?


-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 93-109 (59.2 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 

 

Hitmontop is not a check unless you run Impish or defensive investments. Only thing it can do is to end a SD/Flail sweep.

 

 

+2 252+ Atk Zangoose Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 99-117 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

+2 252+ Atk Zangoose Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Relicanth: 136-162 (65.7 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

 

 

I suppose Relicanth is quite cool, though.

 

252+ Atk Relicanth Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zangoose: 82-97 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

kek.

 

+2 252+ Atk Zangoose Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aggron: 208-248 (117.5 - 140.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

I guess, I'm done.

[/spoiler]

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You are opening yourself for so much more if you go Adamant it's only good against wall teams and Jolly already takes care of that anyway. There is no reason to go Adamant, I don't know why you think it's such a good idea. Especially when you consider that, if you say zangoose is as good as you say, then there will often be mirror matchups with a speed tie. Except not because >adamant.

Salac Endure is garbage with priority and Espeed Pika. Zangoose only reliably sweeps against wall teams. Its just not that reliable if its facing any other team. Already went over this though. It's strong but I'm not convinced of its banworthyness with the only reliable sweeps ot can make is against stall.

I also don't know why you keep bringing up 'team building gets restricted by it'. Hitmontop and other Pokes that do well against Goose are naturally used in the tier. I mean why even bring it up it just seems desperate and out of place for a tier that had one official tournament and youre already claiming it has an unhealthy effect on the meta.

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You are opening yourself for so much more if you go Adamant it's only good against wall teams and Jolly already takes care of that anyway. There is no reason to go Adamant, I don't know why you think it's such a good idea. Especially when you consider that, if you say zangoose is as good as you say, then there will often be mirror matchups with a speed tie. Except not because >adamant.

Salac Endure is garbage with priority and Espeed Pika. Zangoose only reliably sweeps against wall teams. Its just not that reliable if its facing any other team. Already went over this though. It's strong but I'm not convinced of its banworthyness with the only reliable sweeps ot can make is against stall.

I also don't know why you keep bringing up 'team building gets restricted by it'. Hitmontop and other Pokes that do well against Goose are naturally used in the tier. I mean why even bring it up it just seems desperate and out of place for a tier that had one official tournament and youre already claiming it has an unhealthy effect on the meta.

 

 

Are you replying to my post with the entirety of this? Assuming that with the reasoning why Adamant is inferior. On the other side, if you should run Jolly Zangoose to stop Adamant Zangoose isn't that kinda.. bad too? I guess you can look it both ways. I guess Pinsirs, Glalies and Mimes should make you go for Jolly with high usage, I don't know.

 

First of all, I wasn't talking about Salac Endure. Just Salac. I think Salac as a hold item in general is better because Sleep is nerfed, paralyze.. well it sucks if it happened and it has Toxic immunity. The main Will-O-Wisper Banette is nice but not the most used thing of the meta. Endure is just bad at least without Flail and I don't like the Flail set at all.

Also I think you kinda misinterpreted my point of that. I was emphasizing that you can't really even team build against Zangoose, so I don't know how you say I'm saying team building gets "restricted" by it (except the part of me saying that 252/252+ Armaldo/Cradily/Golem is kinda restricting). I do acknowledge that just because you can't reliably switch in to a Pokemon doesn't make it automatically banworthy but it is a notable thing. In a naturally speedy meta Zangoose can not turn out to be that good and then banning Zangoose will be really barking at the wrong tree but it's a different question does Zangoose bring this effect or is the NU metagame naturally going to be that way. I don't know yet. That was just my theorizing from the NU tier. Currently we're seeing quite a defensive metagame with Zangoose with Sub 20% usage, so by that it means I cannot argue for the unhealthiness. But yeah, this is just one tournament.

I mean, I'm just saying how I have observed this Pokemon with my test battles and tournament experience. Not going on my way to rush anything after one tournament. I just don't get what bad is from a discussion thread, might be I'm totally wrong and other people's observations and argumentation are totally different.

Edited by OrangeManiac

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The issue with Zangoose is that there's no way of knowing what set it is when it SDs. You bring your Ebuzz/Scyther for the revenge kill and it endures and activates salac at that point, then it becomes ggnore. Banette is only that useful at the moment with controlling the normal spam, but otherwise imo it doesn't have that much of a use. I could be wrong about this. 

 

Also you're underestimating Zangoose's bulk, mines survived a giga drain from tangela+flamethrower from ninetales. It may not be able to switch into anything but it can set up with ease and with its amazing coverage, take out almost the entire tier. There's just no way of knowing what set it is which makes Hitmontop the only and best revenge killer. 

 

 

if you are running Endure + Swords Dance you have only two moves left, rip coverage, lets not forget that Scyther and Buzz have access to Quick Attack, so your point about salac is garbage.

You Goose surive a Tangela Giga? at what cost? can you easily setup a swords dance and go sweep with it?

[spoiler]
I'm implying a switch in against a Tangela Giga Drain here.
4 SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zangoose: 64-76 (43.2 - 51.3%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO

You Swords Dance
Tangela Giga Drain again, you are at 20% health, +2

+2 252 Atk Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 117-138 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

too bad, you survive two giga drains for nothing.
[/spoiler]

 

I disagree that Hitmontop is the only revenge killer, is one of the most effective one, but clearly someone is missing the potetial of lots of pokes.

I was just pointing out that Banette can stop Goose in a 1v1 situation from a sweep if not Lum (since it runs leftovers, salac and lum at the same time)

 

[spoiler]
fun fact of the thread: Hitmontop usage isn't base after one tournament, but Zangoose 10% is.
[/spoiler]

 

I mean, I'm just saying how I have observed this Pokemon with my test battles and tournament experience. Not going on my way to rush anything after one tournament. I just don't get what bad is from a discussion thread, might be I'm totally wrong and other people's observations and argumentation are totally different.

Well, when the first UU came out, my first battles pointed out that Kangaskhan was too op, then I realize that it is not that uber in UU. Earlier discussion IMO. I would see after 3 to 5 tournaments to see how usage it gets.

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I would see after 3 to 5 tournaments to see how usage it gets.

 

 

Hitmontop had more than 50% usage and you guys bringing zangoose to discussion? Why the fuck we have usage?

 


Having some tournaments is all good and reasonable before making big decisions like banning a Pokemon (unless it's something like Jynx), however you seem to feel a bit too much that "usage" is the main reason for banworthiness. I do agree banning a Pokemon which has notably low usage is ultimately wrong: You would theorize all about it but never wanting to use it in practice. But these discussion threads are about talking if a Pokemon fits a ban criteria. Ban criteria obviously are quite vague and no means completely objective but yet those are defined to find out if a Pokemon should be banned or not, not usage.

You're welcome to suggest a Hitmontop discussion thread all you want, if you feel like it's possibly banworthy material but just a reminder that usage isn't "be-all end-all".

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Basically you've rolled over saying Zangoose will kill something on your team. If that something is a wall, you are instantly put at a severe disadvantage considering most defensive walls in UU are a part of a core that supports their team from sweepers. 

 

I was trying to say that Zangoose has a hard time to set up because the NU tier is really agressive compared to UU. If you want to put Zangoose in play, you will have to make some kind of sacrifice or make a really risky move. Anyways you put yourself at a disavantage and Zangoose (by killing something) will simply restore balance. I really don't see him as a sweeper since his coverage has several flaws.

 

 

Aggron, Solrock get rekt by Low Kick / Iron Tail. I don't even think Shedinja is a proper viable answer.

Shedinja is a strong NU and, if Zangoose does not run firepunch, he is 100% countered.

If you run Low Kick for Aggron instead of Brick Break, Mawile counters you completly as well.

 

The coverage might be great but once again not perfect: Poliwrath, Hitmontop and Primeape can switch in and chase Zangoose away. And getting Zangoose on the field is not an easy task, why taking him out of field needs to be easy?

 

 

Also you're underestimating Zangoose's bulk

Zangoose is not bulky. 73 hp/60def/60spdef is nothing.

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Shedinja is a strong NU and, if Zangoose does not run firepunch, he is 100% countered.

If you run Low Kick for Aggron instead of Brick Break, Mawile counters you completly as well.

 

The coverage might be great but once again not perfect: Poliwrath, Hitmontop and Primeape can switch in and chase Zangoose away. And getting Zangoose on the field is not an easy task, why taking him out of field needs to be easy?

 

 

Shedinja is way too situational Pokemon but since Shedinja is the only reason to run Fire Punch/Rock Slide I guess you could argue it limits Zangoose. Mawile I guess is nice but it's not really that usable, it's offensive output is quite awful with no stab. Only thing it has going for it is the Intimidate ability which one could argue has a spot in NU to limit the physical offense while being a Pain Split tank or something. But I am quite skeptical about Mawile so far.

 

 

None of the Pokemon you mentioned can switch in to Zangoose, I guess the term you're meaning is to "revenge kill". Hitmontop needs to be physically defensive to be able to reliably switch on Choice Band set.

 

252 Atk Choice Band Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 126-148 (63.9 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 84-100 (42.6 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Choice Band Zangoose Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primeape: 180-213 (128.5 - 152.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

252 Atk Zangoose Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primeape: 120-142 (85.7 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

 

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Zangoose Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hitmontop: 84-99 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

What's notable in all of these 3 Pokemon, is that they can (except DrumWrath) quite reliably switched against by Grumpig (and Mime to lesser extent) so even getting these Pokemon in for a fainted Pokemon / prediction doesn't automatically grant a momentum shift.

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Having some tournaments is all good and reasonable before making big decisions like banning a Pokemon (unless it's something like Jynx), however you seem to feel a bit too much that "usage" is the main reason for banworthiness. I do agree banning a Pokemon which has notably low usage is ultimately wrong: You would theorize all about it but never wanting to use it in practice. But these discussion threads are about talking if a Pokemon fits a ban criteria. Ban criteria obviously are quite vague and no means completely objective but yet those are defined to find out if a Pokemon should be banned or not, not usage.

You're welcome to suggest a Hitmontop discussion thread all you want, if you feel like it's possibly banworthy material but just a reminder that usage isn't "be-all end-all".

 

Isn't that what the new policy of using usage is all about? Looking into the pokemon that are too good to not use? The one that clearly will get always a high usage cause they are just too good. IMHO that should be first criteria, we can theorize all day, in the end we will end up with personal opinions and clearly the NU council wants to ban Zangoose (isn't it the 3rd time you guys brought it up for discussion?).

 

I don't want to suggest a Hitmontop ban, cause I stated before, it is too early for any assumptions, Hitmontop can fall in usage in the next tournaments

 

[spoiler]

With our slow building team meta, is pretty easy to use old comps to join tournament until you have enough money/time to make a new one, clearly old UU pokes will have a higher usage at the first tournaments.

[/spoiler]

 

 

P.S.: Lovely work in the OP Noad, finally someone put the members opinions in the op at the start of the Thread to help the discussion.

Edited by felix

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Isn't that what the new policy of using usage is all about? Looking into the pokemon that are too good to not use? The one that clearly will get always a high usage cause they are just too good. IMHO that should be first criteria, we can theorize all day, in the end we will end up with personal opinions and clearly the NU council wants to ban Zangoose (isn't it the 3rd time you guys brought it up for discussion?).

 

I don't want to suggest a Hitmontop ban, cause I stated before, it is too early for any assumptions, Hitmontop can fall in usage in the next tournaments

 

[spoiler]

With our slow building team meta, is pretty easy to use old comps to join tournament until you have enough money/time to make a new one, clearly old UU pokes will have a higher usage at the first tournaments.

[/spoiler]


Usage is used of making the lower tiers, however they aren't used determine when a Pokemon is banworthy in the lower tier. However, high usage oftentimes is just an indication that something about this Pokemon isn't just right. We're following this in our tiering now so I recommend to give it a read: https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54045-tiering-etiquette-guide/

This is the first time NU council has brought an actual discussion about Zangoose, all those previous talk was just speculating the preliminary NU tier which all the NU council members felt like this Pokemon is too good for the tier. The NU Council "does not want to ban Zangoose" but all of us recognized as a major threat and falling possibly under banworthiness, therefor wanting to bring a public discussion about it if the community feels the same way and wanting to hear what kind of arguments they have to present. I'll admit it might have been a better option to wait a couple of more tournaments to perhaps wait "the community to find Zangoose being too good" (in case they agree with us) instead initiating that conversation by ourselves. However, if there wasn't any disagreement with community and the NU council about Zangoose's power then I figured what's the point of doing nothing in the process.


What's in your spoiler, I definitely agree about. I felt like some of the non-Hoenn Pokemon were used due to the reason that everyone had them and people just want to play tournaments. Even though speculation like this shouldn't actually be legitimized but everyone of us need to understand that this game is not a spawn simulator, therefor the amount of time to breed/hunt a Pokemon will also lead to usage stats indirectly. If a Pokemon really is that good, I suppose eventually it will get its real usage on the usage statistics - yet you can't argue against that people have had Grumpigs and Hitmontops etc for other reasons than "this new NU tier". Because they used to be so good in the old UU tier.

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