NU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[LionKIng]

But... Zangoose was a problem, we banned it. Without Pokemon like zangoose and Crobat I'm a little skeptical about offense continuing to be the dominant play style in NU.

yeah after how long did it get banned doe, It didnt magically appear out of nowhere after 1 year of being in NU. And crobat wasnt much of a threat, it was more of a good switch for multiple pokemons and with super fang it did alot of pressure, but with 70 atk it couldnt do much more than that. 

[KaynineXL]

Also I'd just like to add, I feel Zangoose and Kingler are quite a bit different.

 

Zangoose is much stronger than Kingler imo. Zangoose's sweep potential is much higher than Kinglers in most situations, not only was Zangoose able to spam it's stab move Return most of the time since most things that resisted it would get KO'd by its other moves but also it has a stab priority move to make up for slightly lowish speed compared to its rival sweepers. It was so efficient with Silk Scarf and couple that with a stab priority move was pretty deadly imo.

[Kizhaz]

I aggree with you on the flail set Kay, unless somehow it gets to 1hp + retains its substitute, the flail set just cant sweep in NU.

However the cb set is reason enough for a ban, it 2hko's the entire NU tier (maybe not tangela, on phone cant calc yada yada) I feel like the prediction argument shouldnt exist since if you did predict wrong you can swap out and try next time with the same pressure.

Pair Kingler with Scyther and it becomes an unstoppable force only beaten by electrode as a revenge killer.

Besides anything faster than Kingler cant ohko it unless on the special side or STAB se, its lower than average speed is helpped by its above average bulk

[KaynineXL]

I aggree with you on the flail set Kay, unless somehow it gets to 1hp + retains its substitute, the flail set just cant sweep in NU.

However the cb set is reason enough for a ban, it 2hko's the entire NU tier (maybe not tangela, on phone cant calc yada yada) I feel like the prediction argument shouldnt exist since if you did predict wrong you can swap out and try next time with the same pressure.

Pair Kingler with Scyther and it becomes an unstoppable force only beaten by electrode as a revenge killer.

Besides anything faster than Kingler cant ohko it unless on the special side or STAB se, its lower than average speed is helpped by its above average bulk

CB Kingler does not 2hko the entire tier other than Tangela. There are actually many more, for example the obvious ones are Bello, Tangela, Tropius and there are a few more.

[Kizhaz]

CB Kingler does not 2hko the entire tier other than Tangela. There are actually many more, for example the obvious ones are Bello, Tangela, Tropius and there are a few more.

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 172-203 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 156-184 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tropius: 175-206 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

As I said, most of the NU tier is 2hko. Despite this all these pokemon have the same weakness which makes pairing Kingler with any flying, Ice, Poison type easily exploitable. These are our tiers most bulky grass types and even they are brought to their knees...roots.

 

If we look at common phys walls like Hypno, Lapras, Walrein, Hitmontop

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hypno: 219-258 (58.5 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 180-213 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 358-422 (77.1 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 332-392 (78.3 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

[BurntZebra]

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 74-88 (43 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

that is the correct tangela calc with 31 hp/31 def ivs. Also if I had a nickle for every time I've seen a defensive tropius ever, I maybe would have 1 nickle. 

 

Also there aren't that many special attackers that are used consistently and outspeed kingler either. Only two prominent ones are electrode/electabuzz. Even less viable ones like kadabra or xatu have no chance of switching in vs kingler ever. I don't really think its good for the meta to have an extremely powerful physical attacker with perfect coverage that can only be revenged by special attackers with paper thin defenses. 

[Tyrone]

This aint Kingler discussion thread.

[Kizhaz]

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 74-88 (43 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

that is the correct tangela calc with 31 hp/31 def ivs. Also if I had a nickle for every time I've seen a defensive tropius ever, I maybe would have 1 nickle. 

 

Also there aren't that many special attackers that are used consistently and outspeed kingler either. Only two prominent ones are electrode/electabuzz. Even less viable ones like kadabra or xatu have no chance of switching in vs kingler ever. I don't really think its good for the meta to have an extremely powerful physical attacker with perfect coverage that can only be revenged by special attackers with paper thin defenses. 

 

I thought Tangela seemed awfully weak in my calc

[RysPicz]

This aint Kingler discussion thread.

Make one? Calcs speak for themselves, we need a Kingler thread. Or a quickban.

[Gunthug]

Make one? Calcs speak for themselves, we need a Kingler thread. Or a quickban.

If only there was a thread for kingler before it got moved down, for this kind of discussion. Or one for vaporeon.

[fredrichnietze]

so scarf kingler outspeeds then entire nu except trode and ninjask, and cb kingler is arguably the best wall breaker and has very few counters. further more it only really needs 3 moves, meaning even if you knock off kingler he can still SD and kill you.

maybe we should talk about this?

[Tyrone]

so scarf kingler outspeeds then entire nu except trode and ninjask, and cb kingler is arguably the best wall breaker and has very few counters. further more it only really needs 3 moves, meaning even if you knock off kingler he can still SD and kill you.

maybe we should talk about this?

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/62136-nu-discussion-kingler/

 

fred, being dead is no excuse for being blind

[fredrichnietze]

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/62136-nu-discussion-kingler/

 

fred, being dead is no excuse for being blind

this wasnt here last night i promise

[Tyrone]

Back in business

[RysPicz]

Good job Tyrone, thanks a bunch.

 

Now...

 

Requesting (again) a discussion thread for Kingler. Not much has changed since the last 2 pages of discussion about it which was in march, all that I'd want to say has been said already.

[Liberalisme]

Where is the NU viability thread?

[Liberalisme]

16 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Good job Tyrone, thanks a bunch.

 

Now...

 

Requesting (again) a discussion thread for Kingler. Not much has changed since the last 2 pages of discussion about it which was in march, all that I'd want to say has been said already.

Every bulky grass and Poliwrath can beat Kingler. I don't think that Kingler is a problem in NU. I would prefer a Shuckle, Glalie and Sharpedo ban. 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Liberalisme
Added Glalie

[Blue]

Just ban fearow so everyone stops running that stupid poke named solrock. Only purpose it serves is countering fearow and nothing else.Its very annoying being forced to run this shit all the time.

[Liberalisme]

9 minutes ago, Bluejim said:

Just ban fearow so everyone stops running that stupid poke named solrock. Only purpose it serves is countering fearow and nothing else.Its very annoying being forced to run this shit all the time.

Well Solrock doesn't like a predicted cb Steel Wing, it 3HKO's 

[YettoDie]

17 minutes ago, Liberalisme said:

Every bulky grass and Poliwrath can beat Kingler. I don't think that Kingler is a problem in NU. I would prefer a Shuckle, Glalie and Sharpedo ban. 

Every bulky grass, you mean Tangela and Bellossom i guess.

 

Wrath

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 85-100 (43.1 - 50.7%)

0 Atk Poliwrath Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingler: 36-43 (27.6 - 33%)

 

Kingler will take 28-34 hp recoil from the DE.

 

Tangela:

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 74-88 (43 - 51.1%)

0- SpA Kingler Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangela: 72-86 (41.8 - 50%)

0 SpA Kingler Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangela: 80-96 (46.5 - 55.8%)

 

Bellossom:

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 85-100 (46.7 - 54.9%)

 

Both Giga of Tangela and Bellossom will kill Kingler.

 

steel wing is bad and noone should run it, also one slide almost kills fearow so if you take solrock head on it is going to die sooner or later

What about if you pray for the Def boost, i mean worth it right, besides steel wing has little coverage besides Golem and Solrock.

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by Appelsap
added Jims statement

[Liberalisme]

Just now, Bluejim said:

steel wing is bad and noone should run it, also one slide almost kills fearow so if you take solrock head on it is going to die sooner or later

You know that Solrock will come in. You can hit it twice. Pursuit is even worse then steel wing. 

[Blue]

Just now, Liberalisme said:

 Pursuit is even worse then steel wing. 

smh

 

So lets say you predict solrock and you steel wing it, then wot. Solrock switches out and it heals at the first chance given with morning. Also running steel wing with life ball will never work since fearow cant take both rock slide and life ball damage.

[YettoDie]

1 minute ago, Liberalisme said:

You know that Solrock will come in. You can hit it twice. Pursuit is even worse then steel wing. 

Pursuit can give you the advantage in the match,

 

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 76-90 (42.9 - 50.8%)

 

4 Atk Solrock Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Fearow: 116-140 (82.8 - 100%)

 

 

1 minute ago, Liberalisme said:

Yeah I meant those 2

 

Why does everyone always want to ban offensive? Shuckle and Glalie are more cancer

Because if one pokemon can sweep the whole tier thats not really healthy.

[RysPicz]

I come back, and... is this even serious.

 

Solrock is not used only because of Fearow @Bluejim. It also handles Pinsir and Scyther pretty well, which are some of the scariest NU sweepers. There's Aggron and Golem as well which are being used in NU to handle Fearow, so I most honestly do not see this bird as an issue (yet).

 

2 hours ago, Liberalisme said:

Every bulky grass and Poliwrath can beat Kingler. I don't think that Kingler is a problem in NU. I would prefer a Shuckle, Glalie and Sharpedo ban. 

What?

Poliwrath can beat Kingler?

0 Atk Poliwrath Brick Break vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kingler: 33-40 (25.1 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

With what? It can switch in only on Crabhammer. Also my calc is more accurate than Yetto's because in our meta Poliwrath has 85 instead of 95 base atk.

Plus, Kingler can SD in Poliwrath's face once again because it can't do shit to it, and then KO it with Superpower or DEdge.

 

 

Only reliable switches to Kingler in NU are Bellossom and Tangela, nothing more. And this is only if they have not taken any prior damage. Since spikes are quite common in NU and spinners are not:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 129-152 (75 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes

 

Same calc goes for Bellossom. Kingler simply plows through the entire tier with ease.

[LifeStyle]

Shuckle does 0 to Sticky Hold Muk/Swalot, Spikes fucks it, Sub Aggron eventually breaks it, Rain teams usually ohko it (Even 252 hp/sp def Shuckle can't take a surf from rain Gorebyss), any Taunt user laughs at it, etc etc etc

Shuckle is just bad, I don't see any well build team having trouble against it.

I already said what I think about Kingler/Granbull (Ban when?)

I think Fearow is beast, like a weaker version of Dodrio but with same speed and still enough power to clean up late game. I've seen a lot more Aggrons being used since Fearow became NU, even some mawiles and other weird shit.

Also, how is Claydol even NU? Lmao that thing is so annoying, even more when people put fucking Trick on its moveset.

Anyways, first thing to be discussed should defo be Kingler for the reasons Forfi mentioned.