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NU Tier Discussion Request Thread


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Omastar Surf vs. Water Absorb Wooper: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

 

Omastar Hidden Power Electric vs.  Wooper: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Omastar Ancient Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Wooper: 94-109 (29.9 - 34.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

eaz counter

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27 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

Omastar Surf vs. Water Absorb Wooper: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

 

Omastar Hidden Power Electric vs.  Wooper: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Omastar Ancient Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Wooper: 94-109 (29.9 - 34.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

eaz counter

hp grass omastar 2hko wooper so 

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13 minutes ago, Deadwind said:

pretty sure orb oma can rekt all spwalls in the tier (didnt calc yet)

steelix has alot of free switchs (not to mention the cancer sturdy ability)

 

I just hope you guys do not wait a month to ban these 2

It can´t but literally forced people to run Hypno and to a less extent kecleon.

Steelix will stop the cancer toxic spam so its nice.

Edit: And politoed too, but rip recovery

Edited by pachima
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All i can think of is a politoed and i feel like oma needs a quick ban

Oma can 2hko alot of things and you may think that Walrein checks it but it is AP Stab as well. who knows it can get that boost and rip

Ed; Steelix is fine imo

 

Edited by xStarr
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Can we reverse the test ban on Granbull this month? There were two amazing checks that just got dropped down to NU to handle the Bull (Omastar and Steelix). I think we should obverse how these factors play in Granbull's ability to SPAM offense before we conduct a test ban. Consider it a test of observation. 

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Neither of those are all that great of checks though for bull - both lack recovery and bull carries strong coverage for each. Plus the tentative addition of omastar is made with the initial likelihood that it may not stick. I think bull is gonna be unhealthy down in NU no matter how you spin it, we almost unanimously (could be unanimous barring a missing vote or two) felt that getting bull out of there will help develop things faster and avoid wasting time 

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29 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Neither of those are all that great of checks though for bull - both lack recovery and bull carries strong coverage for each. Plus the tentative addition of omastar is made with the initial likelihood that it may not stick. I think bull is gonna be unhealthy down in NU no matter how you spin it, we almost unanimously (could be unanimous barring a missing vote or two) felt that getting bull out of there will help develop things faster and avoid wasting time 

And what was unhealthy about Granbull that made it banworthy? There was no supportive discussion for this. If it were its ability to spam STAB CB Returns/DE's the both Omastar and Steelix slow that down. If it was for another reason, you'll have to elaborate. I think you guys jumped the gun when you have two new, and two amazing, physically defensive mons being brought down. 

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I don't think omastar will be quit as devastating as people are worried about. the only major difference offensively (which seems to be the main concern) from a gorebyss is stab AP, but even then it's usually better to run ice beam (unless you bank on stat increase or running into shedinja), and it comes at the cost of 4x weakness to grass and all the other rock weaknesses. Granted gorebyss impressive 1.06% usage in NU can't be an accurate indicator of how good Omastars going to be...but the same counters (whatever you're using) should apply

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20 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

And what was unhealthy about Granbull that made it banworthy? There was no supportive discussion for this. If it were its ability to spam STAB CB Returns/DE's the both Omastar and Steelix slow that down. If it was for another reason, you'll have to elaborate. I think you guys jumped the gun when you have two new, and two amazing, physically defensive mons being brought down. 

I don't wanna act like what you're saying makes no sense at all - we definitely discussed at the meeting whether omastar + steelix coming down would change our minds on Granbull. What I think you're overlooking is the viability of Granbull's non-choice sets. I'll quote Nik from the discussion thread:

 

Quote

The CB set isn't that threatening because if you have a decent defensive core then you can play around it. It's the Bulk Up set that is super threatening especially when you don't know what kind of bulk up set it is (3 attacks or rest talk). I'd say it is definitely banworthy.

 

Omastar and Steelix don't do a very good job of withstanding the bulk up set

 

+1 252 Atk Granbull Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Steelix: 98-116 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
steelix fails to 2hko back even with the defense drop (after a bulk up) and lacks the recovery to do this more than once
 
+1 252 Atk Granbull Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Omastar: 122-144 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
spdef invested bull can tank 2 surfs and again, omastar doesn't have the recovery to do this more than once. Offensive omastar obviously can't handle this bull if it tries switching in, though I think offensive omastar will be omstar's ticket out of NU here shortly anyways so it's hardly worth discussing
 
I can't speak for the other TC members but I've been convinced of granbull being overpowered for a while now. Objectively, I don't think omastar or steelix make that any less true
Edited by Gunthug
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1 minute ago, Gunthug said:

 

I can't speak for the other TC members but I've been convinced of granbull being overpowered for a while now. Objectively, I don't think omastar or steelix make that any less true

This line of defensive thinking is in complete opposition of why we never ban defensive threats. Consider this, most pokemon that are offensively oriented are not stopped cold by one single pokemon, unless you consider most special threats looking at Blissey or Chansey. It's often a core and tactical play that beats physical offense. While I don't deny the power that Granbull carries and the pressure it applies to damn near everything, adding Steelix and Omastar certainly change the game a bit. Over the history of the tier council, the recommendation has often been "patience." So why not assess the tier with these mons first before removing a wallbreaker like Granbull?

 

It's a 50/50 decision here, because I do agree Granbull is OP but what if Steelix and/or Omastar are able to support defensive cores much better than say Solrock or Magcargo? I personally believe they do, as Omastar and Steelix were the primary options on most defensive cores to slow down Granbull in prior UU metas. 

 

Speaking of which, quick ban Omastar. Offensive HP Electric Omastar wrecks the tier. I already consider rain Gorebyss a massive threat to any core and Omastar does that job so much better. 

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30 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

It's a 50/50 decision here, because I do agree Granbull is OP but what if Steelix and/or Omastar are able to support defensive cores much better than say Solrock or Magcargo? I personally believe they do, as Omastar and Steelix were the primary options on most defensive cores to slow down Granbull in prior UU metas. 

Solrock, Shuckle and Sableye are all better checks than Steelix and Omastar for Granbull but they are still 2HKO by Iron Tail which is a really worse move than EQ or Spower.

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Just now, Sashaolin said:

Solrock, Shuckle and Sableye are all better checks than Steelix and Omastar for Granbull but they are still 2HKO by Iron Tail which is a really worse move than EQ or Spower.

This brings up a very valid point that I was eluding too. With such variable defensive options, Granbull will undoubtedly suffer from 4MSS against the many defensive cores in our UU tier. Having to utilize Iron Tail for Shuckle and Solrock really prevents it from running EQ for Omastar and Steelix, and visa versa. Superpower is a problem, but we have even more options to slow that down. 

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11 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

This brings up a very valid point that I was eluding too. With such variable defensive options, Granbull will undoubtedly suffer from 4MSS against the many defensive cores in our UU tier. Having to utilize Iron Tail for Shuckle and Solrock really prevents it from running EQ for Omastar and Steelix, and visa versa. Superpower is a problem, but we have even more options to slow that down. 

Return+Iron Tail+EQ is unresisted in NU I'm pretty sure. That's only 3 moves

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