NU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[Kizhaz]

Honestly I'd like to test both fearow and jynx (gib dugtrio too plz). Fearow might stop hitmon being the most used physical wall and provides a nice revenge killer to jynx (has pursuit too iirc) I feel like both mons could be handled relitively well in the current meta

Edited December 25, 2015 by Kizhaz

[KaynineXL]

Flareon isn't that great, especially if running wish protect bite flamethrower. Its huge bait for walrein and lapras, two of the biggest threats in the meta game. Also has trouble with taking on pokemon like hypno, grumpig, poliwrath, kabutops, gorebyss (op), and others. Even the pokemon it can switch in on like electabuzz do a lot of damage, enough to the point that flareon is forced to wish+protect as soon as it comes in. 

 

Hard counters to fearow were rock and steel types. Ghost types and electric types were somewhat soft counters because they were able to come in on fearows locked into specific moves and sableye/misdreavus avoided 2hko from drill peck actually. Fearow is a lot less threatening than zangoose or stantler, as both have coverage moves to screw over any possible switch in. Both are more powerful than fearow and have more move options. Something like walrein is also a lot more centralizing teambuilding wise than fearow (even though fearow was only used for one tournament, way too soon to ban it on centralization reasoning)

Flareon is a decent special wall, sure it doesn't take everything on, but nothing does really. The fact of the matter is, it does a good job at stopping Jynx.

 

I disagree with you when you say Zangoose is more threatening than Fearow. Zangoose has troubles breaking our popular physical wall Hitmontop with that stab SE priority mach punch, where as Fearow didn't have any problems with Hitmontop/Tangela. Zangoose is too slow to sweep a lot of the time, unlike Fearow. Fearow also had duel stabs over Zangoose.

 

I don't really feel like getting back into the Fearow discussion as there is already many pages on it but the only real viable thing that stopped Fearow well was Aggron and once that was gone Fearow put down too much pressure. It was very centralizing and much more offensive than Walrein.

[Kizhaz]

Flareon is a decent special wall, sure it doesn't take everything on, but nothing does really. The fact of the matter is, it does a good job at stopping Jynx.
 
I disagree with you when you say Zangoose is more threatening than Fearow. Zangoose has troubles breaking our popular physical wall Hitmontop with that stab SE priority mach punch, where as Fearow didn't have any problems with Hitmontop/Tangela. Zangoose is too slow to sweep a lot of the time, unlike Fearow. Fearow also had duel stabs over Zangoose.
 
I don't really feel like getting back into the Fearow discussion as there is already many pages on it but the only real viable thing that stopped Fearow well was Aggron and once that was gone Fearow put down too much pressure. It was very centralizing and much more offensive than Walrein.

When it came to fearow the argument was you could run cb hp ground for aggron which I still find a fucking joke. Also lets not pretend one of the most used, if not, the most used mon in the current NU meta being armaldo cometely laughs at fearow. I believe back during the discussion people argued we hadn't enough time to have made armaldo yet. Among those two we also have golem, kabutops, misdrevus, mawile, torkoal?, list any rocks I missed. I really dont think fearow would be too op

[KaynineXL]

When it came to fearow the argument was you could run cb hp ground for aggron which I still find a fucking joke. Also lets not pretend one of the most used, if not, the most used mon in the current NU meta being armaldo cometely laughs at fearow. I believe back during the discussion people argued we hadn't enough time to have made armaldo yet. Among those two we also have golem, kabutops, misdrevus, mawile, torkoal?, list any rocks I missed. I really dont think fearow would be too op

Aggron was the most common counter to Fearow, now if Fearow had a move that hit this 'counter' for 57%-69% how is that a fucking joke?

 

Armaldo doesn't completely laugh at Fearow, what lol.

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armaldo: 94-112 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armaldo: 81-96 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Misdreavus

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Misdreavus: 78-93 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Golem isn't too bad, but it's not exactly good, pretty unviable as shown by the usage stats.

 

Mawile, unviable.

 

Kabutops can do ok.. but it's not exactly a hard counter.

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 57-68 (42.2 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

 

Torkoal has no recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 69-82 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Edited December 25, 2015 by KaynineXL

[BurntZebra]

Flareon is a decent special wall, sure it doesn't take everything on, but nothing does really. The fact of the matter is, it does a good job at stopping Jynx.

 

I disagree with you when you say Zangoose is more threatening than Fearow. Zangoose has troubles breaking our popular physical wall Hitmontop with that stab SE priority mach punch, where as Fearow didn't have any problems with Hitmontop/Tangela. Zangoose is too slow to sweep a lot of the time, unlike Fearow. Fearow also had duel stabs over Zangoose.

 

I don't really feel like getting back into the Fearow discussion as there is already many pages on it but the only real viable thing that stopped Fearow well was Aggron and once that was gone Fearow put down too much pressure. It was very centralizing and much more offensive than Walrein.

It would only exist to take on jynx. Every other special wall is much more useful and viable than flareon. 

 

Zangoose doesn't really care about hitmontop that much. Choice band set just straight up beats it.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zangoose Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 78-93 (49.6 - 59.2%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zangoose: 66-80 (44.5 - 54%) -- 39.8% chance to 2HKO

Return 2hkos if hitmontop takes pretty much any prior damage like rock slide from armaldo or anything more than that.

 

Fearow speed isn't exactly that impressive either. Its revenged by the ever-so common electabuzz, scyther, and sneasel. Aggron, lunatone, solrock, shuckle, armaldo, golem, sableye, kabutops, magcargo, and relicanth can all stop fearow relatively easily. Even tangela prevents fearow from doing much, as it can synthesis to scout for drill peck or double edge. 

 

Also fearow was only allowed in one tournament before it was banned and I'm 95% sure the finalists didn't even run fearow in the finals, so the centralization arguments are pretty lacking. 

 

this should probably be in nu viability thread, staff can move this convo there if they so desire.

[Kizhaz]

Aggron was the most common counter to Fearow, now if Fearow had a move that hit this 'counter' for 57%-69% how is that a fucking joke?
 
Armaldo doesn't completely laugh at Fearow, what lol.
252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armaldo: 94-112 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armaldo: 81-96 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Misdreavus
252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Misdreavus: 78-93 (46.7 - 55.6%) -- 18% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Golem isn't too bad, but it's not exactly good, pretty unviable as shown by the usage stats.

 
Mawile, unviable.
 
Kabutops can do ok.. but it's not exactly a hard counter.
252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 57-68 (42.2 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
 
Torkoal has no recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 69-82 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The problem I have with hp ground is if you managed to kill aggron with it, your opponent then has a free switch into anything as well as another free turn to set up because your locked into such a pathetic move. Hp ground hurts ferow more than helps it imo since its only useful for 1 mon in the entire tier.

I'll be honest I forgot steel wing was a move, even still its a 3hko for a move thats resisted by all those water types

Golem has no reason to be used atm, mawile I wouldnt call unviable, it has some merit and good resists considering the current physical threats in the tier, torkoal may not have recovery but it takes those d-edges pretty well and can ohko back due to the recoil

[KaynineXL]

It would only exist to take on jynx. Every other special wall is much more useful and viable than flareon. 

 

Zangoose doesn't really care about hitmontop that much. Choice band set just straight up beats it.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zangoose Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 78-93 (49.6 - 59.2%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zangoose: 66-80 (44.5 - 54%) -- 39.8% chance to 2HKO

Return 2hkos if hitmontop takes pretty much any prior damage like rock slide from armaldo or anything more than that.

 

Fearow speed isn't exactly that impressive either. Its revenged by the ever-so common electabuzz, scyther, and sneasel. Aggron, lunatone, solrock, shuckle, armaldo, golem, sableye, kabutops, magcargo, and relicanth can all stop fearow relatively easily. Even tangela prevents fearow from doing much, as it can synthesis to scout for drill peck or double edge. 

 

Also fearow was only allowed in one tournament before it was banned and I'm 95% sure the finalists didn't even run fearow in the finals, so the centralization arguments are pretty lacking. 

 

this should probably be in nu viability thread, staff can move this convo there if they so desire.

A good team would have something to take normal hits, so you can just switch them in when you scout its cb.

 

Sneasel wasn't in NU at the time.

 

"Aggron, lunatone, solrock, shuckle, armaldo, golem, sableye, kabutops, magcargo, and relicanth can all stop fearow relatively easily."

Firstly, 80% of those don't even get used. Armaldo isn't really a good switch. Kabutops still takes heavy damage. Reli, Mag, Golem, Shuckle, Solrock, Luna I rarely ever see.

 

Tangela still can't switch into Fearow.

 

The problem I have with hp ground is if you managed to kill aggron with it, your opponent then has a free switch into anything as well as another free turn to set up because your locked into such a pathetic move. Hp ground hurts ferow more than helps it imo since its only useful for 1 mon in the entire tier.

I'll be honest I forgot steel wing was a move, even still its a 3hko for a move thats resisted by all those water types

Golem has no reason to be used atm, mawile I wouldnt call unviable, it has some merit and good resists considering the current physical threats in the tier, torkoal may not have recovery but it takes those d-edges pretty well and can ohko back due to the recoil

If you HP ground aggron, it would be quite foolish to HP again. It's obvious they will switch. I'd totally bring it for just Aggron.

 

Fearow doesn't need to stay in and fight Torkaol lol, it can just switch out, and next time Fearow comes in, Torkoal can't switch in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Derailed enough about Fearow. We've already had a thread about it. Feel free to request Fearow be brought down again, although the only real change that would make a difference is Sneasel since it got banned.

Edited December 25, 2015 by KaynineXL

[DrCraig]

Regarding the whole HP Ground crap

• It was small arguement about whether HP Ground could be considered viable or not. Obviously there is some viability in killing it's biggest counter, but what does this even matter in the big picture.

 

The problem I have with hp ground is if you managed to kill aggron with it, your opponent then has a free switch into anything as well as another free turn to set up because your locked into such a pathetic move. Hp ground hurts ferow more than helps it imo since its only useful for 1 mon in the entire tier.

I'll be honest I forgot steel wing was a move, even still its a 3hko for a move thats resisted by all those water types

Golem has no reason to be used atm, mawile I wouldnt call unviable, it has some merit and good resists considering the current physical threats in the tier, torkoal may not have recovery but it takes those d-edges pretty well and can ohko back due to the recoil

• Secondly, after you HP Ground something, yea the other player gets a 'free turn,' but that's how CB works on everything, does it not?

 

A Jynx discussion sounds worth a try; not saying I'm all in for it moving down or anything. :)

 

Wasn't Fearow banned not too long ago?

Here's the Fearow ban write up:

[spoiler]

The NU Council has decided to ban Fearow under the Offensive Uber Characteristics. The council finds that Fearow does indeed sweep a significant portion of the metagame, especially a significant portion of the relevant NU metagame. With really high speed stat of 100 for a NU, two powerful physical STABs of Return/Double-Edge and Drill Peck combined with 90 Attack Stat any Pokemon that is not a Rock or Steel-type will have it hard, if not straight impossible to switch in. Even though switching in Fearow is hard, softening opposing tanks over the course of the match and sacrificing a Pokemon most of the time is just enough for Fearow to clear the whole table.

Unlike most of the Offensive Uber Characteristics, Fearow does have some counters - hard counters even. The most notable hard counters are Aggron and Relicanth which are idiot proof switches in against Fearow unless Fearow has a respective Hidden Power against them. While it needs to be kept in mind a Hidden Power is a really viable move to have against these two counters, the council finds it the most significant fact that these two Pokemon are not found good itself as Pokemon. Before the move downs from UU tier, these Pokemon literally were not used even once. Even though there could be many reasons behind of neither of those Pokemon having no usage prior to move downs, the council just considers the community being right about the viability of these Pokemon for not using them. In addition Pokemon like Blastoise coming in the tier just makes these Pokemon even less viable in the current NU metagame. Even though more used Pokemon like Armaldo, Cradily and Golem could be good Pokemon against Fearow unless getting predicted with Steel Wing (or Hidden Power Grass for Golem in addition), the council feels like this is too much pressure in order to keep one Pokemon in checks.

 

Fearow's negative effect on metagame continues that it pretty much forces you to run always one, preferably two counters against it. This centralizes metagame way too much. Not only does it limit your teambuilding by pretty much two Pokemon by default, the other teambuilding also gets massively affected by it - you're starting to run counters to Fearow's counters. This kind of a metagame is by no means good at all, and it's all because of Fearow's offensive power. Fearow is the most dangerous combined with Diglett. When Diglett removes the needed Rock or Steel type counter and after that Fearow's sweeping will most of the time be ridiculously effortless. Even though you could argue Diglett could possibly fall under Support Characteristics, the council still feels Fearow's destructive power will still remain.

Even though revenge killing isn't that significant factor when considering tiering, it is really notable that the faster Pokemon than Fearow generally are really easy to counter almost in the way of having those Pokemon unviable. Barring Electabuzz, the most strongest Pokemon of the fast metagame, Sneasel, is really easy to hard counter with Blastoise and Hitmontop. Meanwhile Pokemon like Crobat, Electrode and Rapidash aren't considered notable threats by the NU tier council - at least not in the way of being scary enough of punishing a Fearow user. The pre move down meta gives a clear picture that the community doesn't find Electrode and Rapidash as too viable Pokemon in the NU metagame and not much has probably changed.

Due to these reasons the NU council has decided to ban Fearow to BL2 under the Offensive Uber Characteristics.

[/spoiler]

Somebody should explain what's different between then and now to get a solid request going if they want it discussed/moved.

 

(Personally, I think the tier is lookin nice, why yall tryna break it)

Edited December 25, 2015 by DrCraig

[Robofiend]

I've had this argument with zebra like ten times: fearow was banned not because it didn't have counters and checks but because all of its counters and checks aren't viable outside of checking fearow. aggron, golem, solrock and most other slow rock types are total garbage and it's unreasonable to ask players to build new checks or counters to one Pokemon. Basically it's overly centralizing and there's no point complaining about it now.

[gbwead]

Aggron and Solrock counter Fearow extremely well and are both viable in NU. HP ground is an overly situationnal answer to aggron and is quite terrible for a choice bander. It was never a serious argument for the ban. I believe the lack of "viable" counters and checks was the most important argument when it comes to centralisation.

NU has changed a lot since the ban. Ampharos is no longer here, but we have misdreavus, wish/protect hypno, sableye (more popular than before), armaldo (more popular than before), sneasel (new revenge killer), etc.
Fearow coming back to NU is an interesting idea, but we need to make sure it no longer fits Offensive Uber charasteristics. I am looking forward hearing pros and cons arguments about Fearow's unban.
Edit: robo already answered ^^ I type so slowly on my phone lol

Edited December 25, 2015 by lamerb

[Kizhaz]

Fearow has two two strong STABS in Drill peck and D-edge/Return, unfortunately for it they are both resisted by the same types being steel and rock as well as the stronger of the 2 immune to ghost. According to the Ban write up, Fearow had tonnes of counters, they just apparently weren't viable. I'll start by listing these counters;

[spoiler]Arbok

Golem

Kabutops

Sudowoodo

Shuckle

Magcargo

Misdrevus

Corsola

Nosepass

Sableye

Mawile

Aggron

Torkoal

Lunatone

Solrock

Armaldo

Banette

Relicanth

Metang[/spoiler]

 

Alongside these there is Tangela and Hypno who can heal stall but cannot switch in. I've bolded those that I feel could be used either in the current meta or in a meta with Fearow effectively (ie. Aggron is stopped pretty well by montop, but with Fearow montop usage would drop).

Now here are the pokemon that outspeed the bird;

 

[spoiler]Ninjask

Electrode

Crobat

Sneasel

Persian

Jumpluff

Scyther

Rapidash

Electabuzz

----------------

Ninetales

Raichu[/spoiler]

 

Scyther and Crobat would need prior damage to secure the kill (d-edge recoil will do) and Jumpluff only has viabillty as a sub-seeder but otherwise it's fair game. That seems plenty to me, but ofc I see viability in some mons that others prob see as trash. If you have any concerns with any of the mons I listed as viable, feel free to let me know which ones and why

 

In any case I'd like to take the time now to compare Fearow with the current NU overlord, Sneasel. Sneasel is faster and stronger with two varying types that are only stopped by steel? The big difference between Sneasel and Fearow, other than the ever prevalent Hitmontop mach punch an easy ohko away, is the fact Fearow has access to a whopping 120bp STAB move (or 100 if you dont want recoil) But what about Earthquake? another base 100 move that also has the bonus to be SE, but nobody fast in the tier can use such a move... unless... Dugtrio. If arena trap were to be banned, I've heard from basically everyone that Dugtrio would see usage in NU only, yet he is faster and only 10 atk (both base stat and actual) lower than Fearow. Not only this but Dugtrio has quakeslide that has perfect coverage(nincada lol) compared to Fearow's mediocre moveset, yet everyone seems fine to just throw him in NU. "But there are plenty of ground imunities in NU" about as many hard counters to Fearow you might say, some the same (solrock, Lunatone). Double-edge is the only thing Fearow has over Dugtrio, but it gets very limited usage from it due to recoil, especially in a tier with priority out the ass.

 

Now I know you don't want me to, but since it's in the reason for banning I have to. Hidden Power, the magical move that turns Fearow's biggest counters into easy 2hko's even when Jolly. As I stated earlier, locking yourself into such a terrible move would be more beneficial to your opponent due to the free set up opportunities. "Secondly, after you HP Ground something, yea the other player gets a 'free turn,' but that's how CB works on everything, does it not?" Why yes it is, only instead of locking yourself into a decent move, you're locking yourself into a move that is 1.not boosted by the choice band 2.Is on the moveset for litterally 1 pokemon in the entire tier 3.coming from a base 61 sp.atk that is also lowered. A move that does nothing to the entire tier. besides 1 pokemon cannot be considered viable, The only moves a CB Fearow should run are D-edge, Return, Steel wing, Pursuit, Quick Atk. Now I specify on a CB Fearow because it's being locked into Hidden Power that makes it unviable, if you were to run a silk scarf instead, Hidden power would actually be an ok option, however this makes Fearow also no where near as threatening as before. Steel wing does nothing to the defensive monster Rockmons and more bulky mons like Sandslash, Lapras, Mantine, gligar ect. Now become counters as they are 3hko at best.

 

Closing statements; What's changed between now and when Fearow was banned? Armaldo Sky Rocketed in usage, Blastoise is gone making Sneasel much more viable, Crobat and Electrode see more usage and should be considered threats in the tier making them more than good enough revenge killers, Arena Trap will be banned (pls) making the easy way to take out the counters no longer an option, Teams generally carry at least one of Fearow's counters due to Zangoose's presence along with a fast mon and/or Priority.

 

I think I covered everything

[OrangeManiac]

Sneasel is amazing revenge killer for Fearow. Yeah, Fearow could also be re-discussed. Also Pokemon like Hypno make them at least cause massive damage to themselves with that Double-Edge spam. You no longer need to run that mandatory Aggron, Armaldo etc in every team just for this and other fast sweeper are fairly reliable. Definitely agree Fearow could also be re-discussed.

 

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Fearow: 58-70 (41.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

[Robofiend]

I just feel like fearow is going to make the matchup problems in nu even worse- if you're not carrying a rock/steel type then fearow can basically have its way with you. The same problem exists right now to a smaller degree with things like sd sandslash or electabuzz- both of whom require a very specific counter to keep at bay. Adding another Pokemon that needs a very specific counter to beat is just wrong imo.

 

Calcs:

[spoiler]

how does Fearow do against standard, slower offense? For instance, if Fearow comes in to RK a wallbreaker, what risk do they take by staying in?

 

Armaldo

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Armaldo: 79-94 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Armaldo: 79-94 (52.6 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Armaldo: 59-70 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Walrein

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walrein: 132-156 (71.3 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walrein: 88-105 (47.5 - 56.7%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Lapras

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 144-171 (70.2 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Poliwrath

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Poliwrath: 168-200 (85.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

 

Sandslash

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Drill Peck vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Sandslash: 75-88 (43.6 - 51.1%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Fearow Return vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Sandslash: 94-112 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

I could go on, but the tl;dr version is that Fearow 2HKO's most of the slower, bulkier pokemon in OU that aren't hard walls. None of these pokemon reliably switch in against it, though they can live its attacks with full HP.

 

Part of what I really don't like about Fearow is that it hits so hard that offensive teams have tons of trouble checking it. Fearow essentially forces you to run 1 wall, and with Electabuzz and Sneasel, you almost need 2 more walls to have certain defense against the best offensive powers in the metagame.

 

[/spoiler]

Edited December 26, 2015 by Robofiend

[DoubleJ]

 

 

Playing NU yesterday reminded me of how deadly Zangoose is. I used it every match and I witnessed it in a number of matches. The CB set is absolutely destructive and is almost has zero risk associated with it. The Swords Dance set is even scarier late-game when you've removed the one threat your 4MSS doesn't cover. 

 

252 Atk Choice Band Zangoose Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aggron: 228-272 (128.8 - 153.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zangoose Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Armaldo: 158-186 (86.8 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zangoose Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Misdreavus: 107-127 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Zangoose Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sneasel: 76-90 (58.4 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

There really are zero switch-ins (think CB Rhydon in UU). And then just to add, we all know how powerful STAB DE or Return are against anything that doesn't resist it. 

 

Let's make a decision on this bad boy. 

 

[Kizhaz]

So um, Kingler. Are we gonna wait until it wrecks house or insta ban?

[BurntZebra]

So um, Kingler. Are we gonna wait until it wrecks house or insta ban?

It'll be tested for at least 1 tournament. I don't really think it'll stay NU just because of how powerful its flail set is, along with the ability of running a swords dance+3 attack set, with huge physical defense. But we'll have to see tomorrow at the Roselia tournament. 

[Arimanius]

So how did it go? how the meta looked like with a few pokes gone and now with kingler?

[LionKIng]

So how did it go? how the meta looked like with a few pokes gone and now with kingler?

Pretty sure most of the people did not have a kingler for this tournament, seing that kingler was UU for so long and was not a good one either for this meta. Also, I think people will fear losing money into breeding a poke that is potentially going to be BL2 and have no use after its no longer NU. This is an other reason why tiering by usage is flawed, everything takes money and money isnt something everyone has, or has to throw away like that. Only time will tell if kingler is too strong, it won't be in 1 single tournament doe, specially not one 1 day after it droped down. Itll take several for people to have the courage to breed one and use it.

[Arimanius]

Pretty sure most of the people did not have a kingler for this tournament, seing that kingler was UU for so long and was not a good one either for this meta. Also, I think people will fear losing money into breeding a poke that is potentially going to be BL2 and have no use after its no longer NU. This is an other reason why tiering by usage is flawed, everything takes money and money isnt something everyone has, or has to throw away like that. Only time will tell if kingler is too strong, it won't be in 1 single tournament doe, specially not one 1 day after it droped down. Itll take several for people to have the courage to breed one and use it.

well yeah although u have a very good point I think in this special case Kingler is one of those pokes worth breeding no matter what since it shines in ou too but yeah I guess not many people had a kingler available to use last night, but what did it change in the case of armaldo, crobat and zangoose which were used a lot? I guess teams were different and some other pokes took the role of those, I ask cause I couldn't get here on time to watch the tourney and I wanted to know

[RysPicz]

I did see some Kinglers though. Not many, probably because of reasons Lion listed, but they were there.

Every team was also carrying a Tangela, Bellossom or Poliwrath to have a switch-in for it, as literally nothing else can tank a CB Crabhammer or CB Dedge. No other pokemon is able to switch into it without taking insane amount of damage or getting oneshoted.

I see it both as an offensive uber and as an unhealthy poke, insanely centralizing- forces to run Bellossom/ Tangela which still are shaky counters:

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 85-100 (46.7 - 54.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 74-88 (43 - 51.1%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

 

Poliwrath can only switch on Crabhammer but it cannot touch it and also gets shit on by Superpower or DEdge.

 

I see the CB/SD set as the most threatening, let's not also forget about the Flail set which also is an option and it is dangerous as well.

[Bestfriends]

BurntZebra VS giantpipe; (near the end) DestructX VS Mlhawk; DestructX VS giantpipe

 

Enjoy! :)

 

 

I do want to apologize for my abrupt commentary on the BurntZebra VS giantpipe match.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Bestfriends
Updated URL

[Robofiend]

I'm a little skeptical about the Flail set becoming big (you can just stall with Tangela until 1hp, sack something and send in Gligar or whatever) but the SD set is really scary, especially given how hard it nukes pretty much every popular physical wall, including grass types, though they win from over ~70%:

 

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 99-117 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 113-133 (62 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 141-166 (89.8 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 113-133 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Hitmontop isn't even a check, unless it's to punch the Flail set out of existence. Lapras/Walrein dies to Superpower, Gligar to Waterfall, and other grassers like Victreebell, Shiftry and Tropius are just too weak to switch in without running obvious counter-sets. While Scyther, Electabuzz, Raichu (the fast one) and other random pokemon (Kadabra? CB Pinsir? fast Grumpig maybe?) can revenge kill Kingler after some damage, only Scyther (and I guess Sneasel) can boast the ability to kill a +1 Salac set.

 

All of this is not to mention that the flail set executed perfectly is a pretty sure OHKO against Tangela or Bellossom, meaning that if your opponent sends out a Kingler late game and your Gligar/Scyther/Hitmontop is already dead, that's pretty much GG, as it outspeeds the tier after Salac and Flail does massive damage:

 

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 187-220 (102.7 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 164-194 (95.3 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

Given these facts, I'm having trouble seeing why Kingler isn't fit for a quick ban. I think that it's one of those things that once people do the calcs, breed it, use and then win tourneys with, we'll be worse off than if we just banned it now. Like FireLion pointed out, the tendency to wait too long makes for an awkward period of "well I'm not gonna breed that if it's getting banned" followed by the players who already have them abusing them and then an awkward decision of whether to let everyone waste their money or just let these players keep on winning because they have the current OP thing that people are scared to breed. To me, it's the same problem that came to be with Rhydon - really good but not that highly used because people thought it'd be banned.

[LionKIng]

I'm a little skeptical about the Flail set becoming big (you can just stall with Tangela until 1hp, sack something and send in Gligar or whatever) but the SD set is really scary, especially given how hard it nukes pretty much every popular physical wall, including grass types, though they win from over ~70%:

 

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 99-117 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 113-133 (62 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 141-166 (89.8 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 113-133 (57.3 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Hitmontop isn't even a check, unless it's to punch the Flail set out of existence. Lapras/Walrein dies to Superpower, Gligar to Waterfall, and other grassers like Victreebell, Shiftry and Tropius are just too weak to switch in without running obvious counter-sets. While Scyther, Electabuzz, Raichu (the fast one) and other random pokemon (Kadabra? CB Pinsir? fast Grumpig maybe?) can revenge kill Kingler after some damage, only Scyther (and I guess Sneasel) can boast the ability to kill a +1 Salac set.

 

All of this is not to mention that the flail set executed perfectly is a pretty sure OHKO against Tangela or Bellossom, meaning that if your opponent sends out a Kingler late game and your Gligar/Scyther/Hitmontop is already dead, that's pretty much GG, as it outspeeds the tier after Salac and Flail does massive damage:

 

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bellossom: 187-220 (102.7 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Kingler Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 164-194 (95.3 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

Given these facts, I'm having trouble seeing why Kingler isn't fit for a quick ban. I think that it's one of those things that once people do the calcs, breed it, use and then win tourneys with, we'll be worse off than if we just banned it now. Like FireLion pointed out, the tendency to wait too long makes for an awkward period of "well I'm not gonna breed that if it's getting banned" followed by the players who already have them abusing them and then an awkward decision of whether to let everyone waste their money or just let these players keep on winning because they have the current OP thing that people are scared to breed. To me, it's the same problem that came to be with Rhydon - really good but not that highly used because people thought it'd be banned.

For the same reason as for why it took so long to ban zangoose. Nu is fast paced and with 75 speed its easyly revenge killed. NU has the opportunity to allow all playstyles to be able to win equally. Sure, kingler may wreck a team thats just 5 walls with a fast poke, but it will have the hardest time setting up vs a offensive team since its pretty slow,or even vs a balanced team that has kingler in mind while building it. IMO if zangoose wasnt a problem with higher speed and a priority move, kingler will not be an issue like everyone thinks it will. Sure its strong, but its relatively slow compared to everything else in the tier wich is not a stall based tier like OU and UU. The walls in NU have a hard time covering for every threat they can meet, and thats why NU is the funnest tier to play, for the above reasons. 

[Robofiend]

But... Zangoose was a problem, we banned it. Without Pokemon like zangoose and Crobat I'm a little skeptical about offense continuing to be the dominant play style in NU.

[KaynineXL]

My reasons why Kingler will not be ban worthy:

 

Firstly, it wastes its time going +2 if someone brings in a grass poke, which will ohko and heal back for more than the damage taken from a DE.

 

CB set is tricky. It requires prediction and probably a little luck to use it to it's potential. The thing is, it needs to use DE to hit the grass Pokemon which is crippling to the Kingler and forces it not to be able to spam that move. To get a kill on the grass Pokemon, it needs to have them weakened or spikes otherwise it's pretty much just hurting itself barring a crit. Even if it does get the kill on your grass Pokemon, it should never be sweeping with the CB set just because it's not fast enough.

 

Kingler is pretty slow, it can be revenged and I feel it has a hard time coming in unless you can get a double switch which is another issue

 

Lastly, the Flail set is deadly, but I feel there is a little too much priority in NU for it to be ban worthy.

Edited March 22, 2016 by KaynineXL