NU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[Blue]

The NU Tier Discussion Request Thread

 

This thread is for the community to make suggestions to the tier council for [Discussion] threads to be opened. All posts will be heavily moderated by myself and there are strict guidelines that all posters must follow when posting in this thread. All general meta discussion is to take part in the NU viability thread.

 

Rules:

• All Off Topic and low content posts will be removed, anyone found to continually be violating this rule will receive a posting restriction. 
• All requests must come with clear and concise argumentation to justify why a discussion thread will be opened by a tier council member. Posts like "X Pokemon needs to have a thread" or "X Pokemon needs to have a thread because it is really strong" will not be counted as valid and will be removed.
• Joke posts for Pokemon suggestions will be removed and considered spam.
• Posts that disagree with another poster's requests are not allowed, if you do not believe that Pokemon is a top tier threat then you need to argue it's place in the viability ranking thread. You are however, welcome to post additional information/arguments that you feel a poster has missed, other than that you can like the post to show your support and agreement. 

Things to consider:

• You may want to provide damage calculations to strengthen your argument, this can be done here. Please remember to select the DPP tab. 
• It would be beneficial to provide a clear reason why you feel this Pokemon needs to be discussed. For example, do you believe it falls under the Uber characteristic? The defensive characteristic? Ect....
• Think carefully before you suggest a Pokemon, it is not a competition to be the one who suggests the most Pokemon. Senile's guide to tiering discussions is a good place to start for those unfamiliar with tier discussions: https://forums.pokem...tiquette-guide/

All Competition Alley rules still apply!

 

[TJXD]

Over centralization around Hitmontop ?

[OldKeith]

Over centralization around Hitmontop ?

 

 

Rules:

• All Off Topic and low content posts will be removed, anyone found to continually be violating this rule will receive a posting restriction. 
• All requests must come with clear and concise argumentation to justify why a discussion thread will be opened by a tier council member. Posts like "X Pokemon needs to have a thread" or "X Pokemon needs to have a thread because it is really strong" will not be counted as valid and will be removed.
• Joke posts for Pokemon suggestions will be removed and considered spam.
• Posts that disagree with another poster's requests are not allowed, if you do not believe that Pokemon is a top tier threat then you need to argue it's place in the viability ranking thread. You are however, welcome to post additional information/arguments that you feel a poster has missed, other than that you can like the post to show your support and agreement. 

Things to consider:

• You may want to provide damage calculations to strengthen your argument, this can be done here. Please remember to select the DPP tab. 
• It would be beneficial to provide a clear reason why you feel this Pokemon needs to be discussed. For example, do you believe it falls under the Uber characteristic? The defensive characteristic? Ect....
• Think carefully before you suggest a Pokemon, it is not a competition to be the one who suggests the most Pokemon. Senile's guide to tiering discussions is a good place to start for those unfamiliar with tier discussions: https://forums.pokem...tiquette-guide/

[DrCraig]

Over centralization around Hitmontop ?

" All general meta discussion is to take part in the NU viability thread."
You can talk about it in there

[spoiler]damn Keith have mercy[/spoiler]

[Kizhaz]

Can we throw open a Pikachu thread now? It was already arguably a great mon in the NU tier with the amazing coverage and +2 priority, but with access to a base 120 stab move it's already vast movepool has increased. With Volt Tackle comes alot more sets; mixed, special, reversal, physical. And most of all, the pokemon that counter one set don't necessarily counter the others, so Pikachu becomes a pokemon that can tare apart teams before you even know what moves it has

 

Just realised I wrote banded, ofc I meant fully physical

Edited August 26, 2015 by Kizhaz

[KaynineXL]

Can we throw open a Pikachu thread now? It was already arguably a great mon in the NU tier with the amazing coverage and +2 priority, but with access to a base 120 stab move it's already vast movepool has increased. With Volt Tackle comes alot more sets; mixed, special, reversal, banded. And most of all, the pokemon that counter one set don't necessarily counter the others, so Pikachu becomes a pokemon that can tare apart teams before you even know what moves it has

"It was already arguably a great mon in the NU tier" Was it though? Because I thought it was alright, but nothing special.

[Kizhaz]

"It was already arguably a great mon in the NU tier" Was it though? Because I thought it was alright, but nothing special.

 

It was a threat to most of the tier imo. Only thing hurting it was the vast amount of priority in the tier with it's lackluster def's

[Arimanius]

Can we throw open a Pikachu thread now? It was already arguably a great mon in the NU tier with the amazing coverage and +2 priority, but with access to a base 120 stab move it's already vast movepool has increased. With Volt Tackle comes alot more sets; mixed, special, reversal, physical. And most of all, the pokemon that counter one set don't necessarily counter the others, so Pikachu becomes a pokemon that can tare apart teams before you even know what moves it has
 
Just realised I wrote banded, ofc I meant fully physical

I agree and besides that with luxurys and easier bps it is easier to breed a really good one in a short time, although I would like to test it, it wouldn't hurt to open a discussion for it

[Kizhaz]

I'll be honest the fearow decision surprised me

[OrangeManiac]

This is by no means saying that Pikachu thread will not be opened (it's being discussed right now) but I find this update to be an excellent opportunity to see how much people really want to use Pikachu since Battle Points aren't so awful to grind anymore. I know farming is the main reason why Pikachu had only 5% usage in the old metagame. This being said, it's hard to discuss about a Pokemon that is really insane on the paper (having some major defensive downsides, of course) but has not been used pretty much at all.

Edited August 29, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[KaynineXL]

I want to propose we move Jynx back down to NU.

Since Jynx was banned to BL2-
Rock Blast was buffed which made it more viable than Rock Slide, it's a great move to hit through sub, especially on Jynx's very low hp/def.
Icicle Shard was buffed which makes it viable, same reason above.
Flareon dropped down to NU, which resists ice beam and has bite, also has wish.
Hypno dropped down which resists psychic, has wish, has insomnia to stop lovely kiss. Would probably need to change moveset to deal with it.

Sneasel came down, immune to psychic, resists ice, the 2 main stabs. A serious threat to Jynx.

 

Thoughts? 

[BurntZebra]

 

I want to propose we move Jynx back down to NU.

Since Jynx was banned to BL2-
Rock Blast was buffed which made it more viable than Rock Slide, it's a great move to hit through sub, especially on Jynx's very low hp/def.
Icicle Shard was buffed which makes it viable, same reason above.
Flareon dropped down to NU, which resists ice beam and has bite, also has wish.
Hypno dropped down which resists psychic, has wish, has insomnia to stop lovely kiss. Would probably need to change moveset to deal with it.

Sneasel came down, immune to psychic, resists ice, the 2 main stabs. A serious threat to Jynx.

 

Thoughts? 

 

I would still say no. Rock blast buff is pretty much irrelevant when you consider what learns rock blast.

+1 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Armaldo: 135-159 (90 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Icicle spear too

+1 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Piloswine: 157-186 (89.2 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Flareon works decently, although the bulky set can't even ohko flareon which is an issue, and the offensive flareons take a lot from neutral psychics from jynx.

Hypno lacks offense vs jynx overall, basically relying on seismic toss to handle jynx. I would say lovely kiss isn't worth running in an offense oriented tier, would much rather run hp fighting to bop sneasel/aggron.

Sneasel stops jynx pretty hard assuming jynx doesn't signal beam or hidden power fight on the switch, as signal beam does upward to 80% and hp fighting ohkos obviously. Sneasel cleanly kos jynx with pursuit regardless of switching out, but sneasel is a double edged sword for jynx too. Sneasel pursuit traps hypno+grumpig which can potentially handle jynx too. 

[KaynineXL]

I would still say no. Rock blast buff is pretty much irrelevant when you consider what learns rock blast.

+1 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Armaldo: 135-159 (90 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Icicle spear too

+1 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 4 SpD Piloswine: 157-186 (89.2 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Flareon works decently, although the bulky set can't even ohko flareon which is an issue, and the offensive flareons take a lot from neutral psychics from jynx.

Hypno lacks offense vs jynx overall, basically relying on seismic toss to handle jynx. I would say lovely kiss isn't worth running in an offense oriented tier, would much rather run hp fighting to bop sneasel/aggron.

Sneasel stops jynx pretty hard assuming jynx doesn't signal beam or hidden power fight on the switch, as signal beam does upward to 80% and hp fighting ohkos obviously. Sneasel cleanly kos jynx with pursuit regardless of switching out, but sneasel is a double edged sword for jynx too. Sneasel pursuit traps hypno+grumpig which can potentially handle jynx too. 

I feel most Armaldo are bulky. Rock blast is very relevant imo because if it doesn't use sub, stuff like Hypno+Grumpig could easily stop it with toxic. If it subs while you switch to armaldo, it's forced to switch.

252+ Atk Armaldo Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 306-360 (218.5 - 257.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Armaldo: 127-151 (69.7 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Icicle shard still does a load of damage, even thought its resisted. Not as useful as Rock blast. This probably isn't that relevant unless Jynx is damaged.

252+ Atk Choice Band Piloswine Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 99-117 (70.7 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

The fact Sneasel can come in and ohko Jynx with pursuit is pretty big. Jynx pretty much has to sub or hp fight or confuse with Signal beam to even have a chance.

252 SpA Jynx Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sneasel: 102-120 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 182-216 (130 - 154.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

 

edit:

0 Attack sassy Flareon

0 Atk Flareon Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 124-148 (88.5 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

 

or you could just invest some attack or wear black glasses to ohko if you feel the need.

0 Atk Black Glasses Flareon Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 148-176 (105.7 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Jynx at +1

+1 252 SpA Jynx Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 72-85 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Flareon counters it pretty hard imo.

Edited December 24, 2015 by KaynineXL

[OrangeManiac]

I think Jynx is definitely something that should further discussed whether it could be allowed in the NU tier. Pursuit Trap Sneasel gets it good and it has some notable checks and it's easily revenge killed. I think Lovely Kiss is really over-hyped move, the risk/reward factor of it is much worse as think it is. In addition, let's remember Grumpig walls it pretty nicely.

[Robofiend]

I'm actually open to discussing Jynx again, although I'm a little worried that adding Jynx would make the tier even more centralized around Sneasel and Psychic type walls. That said, if Sneasel gets locked into Pursuit it can mean a turn of setup for the opponent, which can be abused by Belly Magmar or others. If you don't have either of these, then Jynx could be pretty threatening.

 

However, there are a wealth of stops to it, so it's hard to say why it shouldn't be in the tier other than the fear of centralization:

 

Grumpig walls Psy/Ice and Sig beam bops Jynx, assuming the lovely kiss doesn't hit (if it does, Pig can swap to something to absorb that)

Lapras can take a Psychic and Perish Song to prevent a sweep

Flareon nukes Jynx

Hasty Electabuzz can give up a moveslot for Fire Punch to nuke Jynx without investment

Hypno lives Psy/Beam and can Seismic Toss through subs without fear of a sweep

Sneasel Pursuit OHKO's

 

But, like I said, I'm a little worried that more strong Ice/Psychic types will mess with the matchup component of NU even more than now: as it is, Sneasel, Hypno, Grumpig, Lapras and Walrein are all super highly used and viable and if Jynx turns out to be really good then that might worsen this.

 

--------------------

 

In other news, I have a weird proposition:

 

We should ban AT from all tiers and let SV Dugtrio come into NU since it would definitely not see use in either OU or UU.

 

Why? We'll leave out the AT discussion, but assuming people still feel the same way about it, I think that banning AT makes way more sense than just banning Dugtrio and letting Diglett or Trapinch take its role.

 

I think the tier would benefit from having a super fast CB user that can use Rock Slide/Quake and Dugtrio fills that niche perfectly without being too strong. Base 80 attack is pretty embarrassing. Right now the fastest Quake/Slider is Pinsir, who still can't do much against Buzz, Sneasel, or other speedy pokes. I feel like the tier is really centralized around taking out special walls and then letting Buzz sweep, and Dugtrio could lead to new and exciting team dynamics. Without its trademark ability, Dugtrio is just a Choice Bander or maybe a Sandstorm annoyer (pretty meh, imo) but neither of these sets seem broken in their own right. In either case, what I've noticed about NU lately is that Ice/Electric/Psychic are pretty stronk types and Dugtrio has options to break all of those types pretty well.

[KaynineXL]

I'm actually open to discussing Jynx again, although I'm a little worried that adding Jynx would make the tier even more centralized around Sneasel and Psychic type walls. That said, if Sneasel gets locked into Pursuit it can mean a turn of setup for the opponent, which can be abused by Belly Magmar or others. If you don't have either of these, then Jynx could be pretty threatening.

 

However, there are a wealth of stops to it, so it's hard to say why it shouldn't be in the tier other than the fear of centralization:

 

Grumpig walls Psy/Ice and Sig beam bops Jynx, assuming the lovely kiss doesn't hit (if it does, Pig can swap to something to absorb that)

Lapras can take a Psychic and Perish Song to prevent a sweep

Flareon nukes Jynx

Hasty Electabuzz can give up a moveslot for Fire Punch to nuke Jynx without investment

Hypno lives Psy/Beam and can Seismic Toss through subs without fear of a sweep

Sneasel Pursuit OHKO's

 

But, like I said, I'm a little worried that more strong Ice/Psychic types will mess with the matchup component of NU even more than now: as it is, Sneasel, Hypno, Grumpig, Lapras and Walrein are all super highly used and viable and if Jynx turns out to be really good then that might worsen this.

 

--------------------

 

In other news, I have a weird proposition:

 

We should ban AT from all tiers and let SV Dugtrio come into NU since it would definitely not see use in either OU or UU.

 

Why? We'll leave out the AT discussion, but assuming people still feel the same way about it, I think that banning AT makes way more sense than just banning Dugtrio and letting Diglett or Trapinch take its role.

 

I think the tier would benefit from having a super fast CB user that can use Rock Slide/Quake and Dugtrio fills that niche perfectly without being too strong. Base 80 attack is pretty embarrassing. Right now the fastest Quake/Slider is Pinsir, who still can't do much against Buzz, Sneasel, or other speedy pokes. I feel like the tier is really centralized around taking out special walls and then letting Buzz sweep, and Dugtrio could lead to new and exciting team dynamics. Without its trademark ability, Dugtrio is just a Choice Bander or maybe a Sandstorm annoyer (pretty meh, imo) but neither of these sets seem broken in their own right. In either case, what I've noticed about NU lately is that Ice/Electric/Psychic are pretty stronk types and Dugtrio has options to break all of those types pretty well.

 

I feel NU is already centralized around psychic types, and this is why I feel Jynx won't be as impressive as most would think. Adding Jynx in won't really make much different to over centralizing imo.

 

We need to remember Jynx is fast, but could still struggle to sweep since there is still a lot that can tie or is just faster.

140 - Electrode - 192, 211

130 - Crobat - 182, 200

115 - Persian, Sneasel - 167, 183

110 - Jumpluff - 162, 178

105 - Electabuzz, Kadabra, Rapidash, Scyther - 157, 172

100 - Ninetales, Raichu - 152, 167

97 - Raticate - 149, 163

95 - Xatu, Diglett, Sharpedo, Primeape, Yanma, Grovyle- 147, 161

 

Another mon to add is specially defensive Raichu, because it is actually quite good at stopping Jynx.

0 Atk Raichu Volt Tackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 135-160 (96.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

 

and Jynx

252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Raichu: 58-70 (34.7 - 41.9%) -- 84.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

or at +1

+1 252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Raichu: 88-105 (52.6 - 62.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

I do agree with AT ban, I don't really think Dugtrio would even be that useful in NU. I could be wrong though.

[DoubleJ]

 

I think the tier would benefit from having a super fast CB user that can use Rock Slide/Quake and Dugtrio fills that niche perfectly without being too strong. Base 80 attack is pretty embarrassing. Right now the fastest Quake/Slider is Pinsir, who still can't do much against Buzz, Sneasel, or other speedy pokes. I feel like the tier is really centralized around taking out special walls and then letting Buzz sweep, and Dugtrio could lead to new and exciting team dynamics. Without its trademark ability, Dugtrio is just a Choice Bander or maybe a Sandstorm annoyer (pretty meh, imo) but neither of these sets seem broken in their own right. In either case, what I've noticed about NU lately is that Ice/Electric/Psychic are pretty stronk types and Dugtrio has options to break all of those types pretty well.

 

Been waiting for this. +1 for support. 

 

 

EDIT: Dugtrio becomes a very nice CB user with EQ, Rock Slide, Aerial Ace, and Thief/Pursuit just to mess with the tier. It also outspeeds Sneasel which is a pretty big plus for revenge kills, and that CB EQ lock is still punishing enough in NU for it to not be too overpowered. 

Edited December 24, 2015 by DoubleJ

[BurntZebra]

I'm actually open to discussing Jynx again, although I'm a little worried that adding Jynx would make the tier even more centralized around Sneasel and Psychic type walls. That said, if Sneasel gets locked into Pursuit it can mean a turn of setup for the opponent, which can be abused by Belly Magmar or others. If you don't have either of these, then Jynx could be pretty threatening.

 

However, there are a wealth of stops to it, so it's hard to say why it shouldn't be in the tier other than the fear of centralization:

 

Grumpig walls Psy/Ice and Sig beam bops Jynx, assuming the lovely kiss doesn't hit (if it does, Pig can swap to something to absorb that)

Lapras can take a Psychic and Perish Song to prevent a sweep

Flareon nukes Jynx

Hasty Electabuzz can give up a moveslot for Fire Punch to nuke Jynx without investment

Hypno lives Psy/Beam and can Seismic Toss through subs without fear of a sweep

Sneasel Pursuit OHKO's

 

But, like I said, I'm a little worried that more strong Ice/Psychic types will mess with the matchup component of NU even more than now: as it is, Sneasel, Hypno, Grumpig, Lapras and Walrein are all super highly used and viable and if Jynx turns out to be really good then that might worsen this.

 

--------------------

 

In other news, I have a weird proposition:

 

We should ban AT from all tiers and let SV Dugtrio come into NU since it would definitely not see use in either OU or UU.

 

Why? We'll leave out the AT discussion, but assuming people still feel the same way about it, I think that banning AT makes way more sense than just banning Dugtrio and letting Diglett or Trapinch take its role.

 

I think the tier would benefit from having a super fast CB user that can use Rock Slide/Quake and Dugtrio fills that niche perfectly without being too strong. Base 80 attack is pretty embarrassing. Right now the fastest Quake/Slider is Pinsir, who still can't do much against Buzz, Sneasel, or other speedy pokes. I feel like the tier is really centralized around taking out special walls and then letting Buzz sweep, and Dugtrio could lead to new and exciting team dynamics. Without its trademark ability, Dugtrio is just a Choice Bander or maybe a Sandstorm annoyer (pretty meh, imo) but neither of these sets seem broken in their own right. In either case, what I've noticed about NU lately is that Ice/Electric/Psychic are pretty stronk types and Dugtrio has options to break all of those types pretty well.

I don't think jynx would be good for the meta at all. It would only make the sneasel special attack teams even more centralizing than they already are. Grumpig isn't really a stop to jynx considering jynx 2hko's at +1 and has respectable special defense to take on grumpig.

+1 252 SpA Jynx Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Grumpig: 92-110 (49.1 - 58.8%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Grumpig Signal Beam vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Jynx: 38-46 (27.1 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

Perish lapras isn't really an official counter to anything, otherwise baton pass wouldn't have been banned. Curse cradily wouldn't have been too powerful, etc. Special attacking lapras just can't do much to jynx in return. Dragon dance lapras can probably beat jynx as waterfall does a ton of damage. 

 

Specially defensive flareon with bite is probably the best answer to jynx as it has the offense to actually take out jynx and can take neutral/+1 hits from jynx. Any other variant of flareon doesn't fare as well vs jynx though. Fast offensive ones take too much from psychic and sp defensive flareons without bite can't ohko jynx.

 

No one runs hasty electabuzz really because there's no reason to. 

 

Hypno dies to two +1 ice beams and obviously doesn't ohko or 2hko jynx with seismic toss. 

 

I don't really think we need to make sneasel any more prominent within the NU meta. Its already used a lot to take on grumpig/misdreavus/hypno. Imo I don't want to see a meta that revolves around running sneasel to take out jynx and other psychic types to set up sweeps for your special attackers. 

 

--------------------------------------------

 

Dropping dugtrio to NU would have to come with time and usage stats. We can't just move it down because we don't think anyone will run it in UU. If the usage update comes along and its not used in UU, then it can drop to NU. Trapinch will probably still be an issue in OU with taking out chansey, but I guess its the debate of does taking out chansey and not really any other walls/attackers make trapinch banworthy? 

[KaynineXL]

I don't think jynx would be good for the meta at all. It would only make the sneasel special attack teams even more centralizing than they already are. Grumpig isn't really a stop to jynx considering jynx 2hko's at +1 and has respectable special defense to take on grumpig.

+1 252 SpA Jynx Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Grumpig: 92-110 (49.1 - 58.8%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Grumpig Signal Beam vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Jynx: 38-46 (27.1 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

Perish lapras isn't really an official counter to anything, otherwise baton pass wouldn't have been banned. Curse cradily wouldn't have been too powerful, etc. Special attacking lapras just can't do much to jynx in return. Dragon dance lapras can probably beat jynx as waterfall does a ton of damage. 

 

Specially defensive flareon with bite is probably the best answer to jynx as it has the offense to actually take out jynx and can take neutral/+1 hits from jynx. Any other variant of flareon doesn't fare as well vs jynx though. Fast offensive ones take too much from psychic and sp defensive flareons without bite can't ohko jynx.

 

No one runs hasty electabuzz really because there's no reason to. 

 

Hypno dies to two +1 ice beams and obviously doesn't ohko or 2hko jynx with seismic toss. 

 

I don't really think we need to make sneasel any more prominent within the NU meta. Its already used a lot to take on grumpig/misdreavus/hypno. Imo I don't want to see a meta that revolves around running sneasel to take out jynx and other psychic types to set up sweeps for your special attackers. 

 

--------------------------------------------

 

Dropping dugtrio to NU would have to come with time and usage stats. We can't just move it down because we don't think anyone will run it in UU. If the usage update comes along and its not used in UU, then it can drop to NU. Trapinch will probably still be an issue in OU with taking out chansey, but I guess its the debate of does taking out chansey and not really any other walls/attackers make trapinch banworthy? 

 

The one thing I don't understand though. There is clearly stuff that stops it quite easily, special wall Flareon counters it really well. Then you have Raichu which does a decent job. Grumpig+Hypno are a little sketchy, but both can do it.

 

Jynx can only use 4 moves. Seems it need quite a lot to deal with everything though.

Ice beam

Psychic

Cm

Hp Fighting(otherwise Sneasel traps easily)

Signal(otherwise Grumpig+Hypno beat it)

Sub(otherwise toxic+stall beats it)

 

It's 95 speed which makes it tie with a lot of threats, it's also out sped by a fair few threats. On top of all this.. It's hard to bring in which would be a problem for Jynx.

 

So why is it ban worthy? We have counters, we have checks, it can be trapped like no other, it's hard to bring in.

 

I don't think 'it makes Sneasel more centralizing' is a good enough reason for it to be banned.

[BurntZebra]

The one thing I don't understand though. There is clearly stuff that stops it quite easily, special wall Flareon counters it really well. Then you have Raichu which does a decent job. Grumpig+Hypno are a little sketchy, but both can do it.

 

Jynx can only use 4 moves. Seems it need quite a lot to deal with everything though.

Ice beam

Psychic

Cm

Hp Fighting(otherwise Sneasel traps easily)

Signal(otherwise Grumpig+Hypno beat it)

Sub(otherwise toxic+stall beats it)

 

It's 95 speed which makes it tie with a lot of threats, it's also out sped by a fair few threats. On top of all this.. It's hard to bring in which would be a problem for Jynx.

 

So why is it ban worthy? We have counters, we have checks, it can be trapped like no other, it's hard to bring in.

 

I don't think 'it makes Sneasel more centralizing' is a good enough reason for it to be banned.

Dual stabs cm signal beam covers pretty much everything. Nothing really can toxic stall jynx that well, other than pokemon that can already somewhat handle it. Signal beam does up to 92% to sneasel, so sneasel pretty much needs to be full hp to survive. one layer of spikes and gg. Modest jynx=gg sneasel. The 95 base speed tier isn't very large. Basically just occupied by xatu. Primeape is never run. No other relevant base 95 speed pokemon either. 

 

Why was fearow banworthy? It had around 10 counters and like 8 checks. It had few switch ins because cb eq is pretty much never seen in NU. Jynx counters barely exist, considering jynx can easily bypass flareon issues by running a few hp evs and running twisted spoon to guarantee 2hko on max hp/sp def flareon. Psychic types don't really counter jynx, at best they can check with a pretty specific moveset. 

 

Jynx will make the whole meta centralized around it and sneasel and psychic types, even moreso than it is now. It would be like trying to move blaziken down to UU because there's grumpig to counter it. Sure it has one counter but its not worth making the meta completely centralized around stopping a specific threat. If jynx becomes NU, I would honestly run sneasel+jynx+walrein every match and destroy everything because there are very few counter plays to it. 

[KaynineXL]

Dual stabs cm signal beam covers pretty much everything. Nothing really can toxic stall jynx that well, other than pokemon that can already somewhat handle it. Signal beam does up to 92% to sneasel, so sneasel pretty much needs to be full hp to survive. one layer of spikes and gg. Modest jynx=gg sneasel. The 95 base speed tier isn't very large. Basically just occupied by xatu. Primeape is never run. No other relevant base 95 speed pokemon either. 

 

Why was fearow banworthy? It had around 10 counters and like 8 checks. It had few switch ins because cb eq is pretty much never seen in NU. Jynx counters barely exist, considering jynx can easily bypass flareon issues by running a few hp evs and running twisted spoon to guarantee 2hko on max hp/sp def flareon. Psychic types don't really counter jynx, at best they can check with a pretty specific moveset. 

 

Jynx will make the whole meta centralized around it and sneasel and psychic types, even moreso than it is now. It would be like trying to move blaziken down to UU because there's grumpig to counter it. Sure it has one counter but its not worth making the meta completely centralized around stopping a specific threat. If jynx becomes NU, I would honestly run sneasel+jynx+walrein every match and destroy everything because there are very few counter plays to it. 

Sharpedo is a relevant 95 speed poke.

 

If Jynx runs modest, these pokes are faster with +speed nature. I honestly doubt it worth going modest because so many pokes are around that speed.

90 - Mr. Mime, Zangoose

85 - Gligar, Misdreavus, Nidoking, Pinsir, Golduck, Girafarig, Stantler - 

 

You should know why Fearow was banned, since you're in the council. I'm not sure what 'counters/checks' you're talking about, but you're probably listing unviable pokes which is pointless.

 

I'm still struggling to see "Jynx counters barely exist, considering jynx can easily bypass flareon issues by running a few hp evs and running twisted spoon to guarantee 2hko on max hp/sp def flareon."

I'l give you the benefit of the doubt. Here we have modest + 252 sp atk + twister spoon at +1. It's still not 2hko. 

+1 0+ SpA Twisted Spoon Jynx Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 76-91 (44.1 - 52.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

[BurntZebra]

 

Sharpedo is a relevant 95 speed poke.

 

If Jynx runs modest, these pokes are faster with +speed nature. I honestly doubt it worth going modest because so many pokes are around that speed.

90 - Mr. Mime, Zangoose

85 - Gligar, Misdreavus, Nidoking, Pinsir, Golduck, Girafarig, Stantler - 

 

You should know why Fearow was banned, since you're in the council. I'm not sure what 'counters/checks' you're talking about, but you're probably listing unviable pokes which is pointless.

 

I'm still struggling to see "Jynx counters barely exist, considering jynx can easily bypass flareon issues by running a few hp evs and running twisted spoon to guarantee 2hko on max hp/sp def flareon."

I'l give you the benefit of the doubt. Here we have modest + 252 sp atk + twister spoon at +1. It's still not 2hko. 

+1 0+ SpA Twisted Spoon Jynx Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 76-91 (44.1 - 52.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I had no say in the fearow decision. That occurred before tier council was condensed down into one group. I disagreed with the ban wholeheartedly because there were multiple hard counters to fearow and several checks, in addition to the fact fearow can't switch in vs much. I also forgot about sharpedo, but sharpedo doesn't really want to switch in vs ice beam or signal beam. 

 

+1 252+ SpA TwistedSpoon Jynx Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 94-112 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

you forgot the special attack evs

[KaynineXL]

I had no say in the fearow decision. That occurred before tier council was condensed down into one group. I disagreed with the ban wholeheartedly because there were multiple hard counters to fearow and several checks, in addition to the fact fearow can't switch in vs much. I also forgot about sharpedo, but sharpedo doesn't really want to switch in vs ice beam or signal beam. 

 

+1 252+ SpA TwistedSpoon Jynx Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 94-112 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

you forgot the special attack evs

Woops, I thought it was surprisingly low.

 

Eitherway, it needs to survive Bite which is 37% chance to ohko with no investment or black glasses.

0 Atk Flareon Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 124-148 (88.5 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

 

Sharpedo would just be revenge killer.

 

What were the hard counters to Fearow? All I remember is that thing applying a lot of pressure while dueling and while team building.

[OrangeManiac]

Pretty sure an exception could be made with Dugtrio. I mean, of course if some odd reason people would use Dugtrio in OU/UU then it remains in that tier w/o Arena Trap but if we were to ban AT I'd see it pointless to not start it from NU.

[BurntZebra]

Woops, I thought it was surprisingly low.

 

Eitherway, it needs to survive Bite which is 37% chance to ohko with no investment or black glasses.

0 Atk Flareon Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 124-148 (88.5 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

 

Sharpedo would just be revenge killer.

 

What were the hard counters to Fearow? All I remember is that thing applying a lot of pressure while dueling and while team building.

Flareon isn't that great, especially if running wish protect bite flamethrower. Its huge bait for walrein and lapras, two of the biggest threats in the meta game. Also has trouble with taking on pokemon like hypno, grumpig, poliwrath, kabutops, gorebyss (op), and others. Even the pokemon it can switch in on like electabuzz do a lot of damage, enough to the point that flareon is forced to wish+protect as soon as it comes in. 

 

Hard counters to fearow were rock and steel types. Ghost types and electric types were somewhat soft counters because they were able to come in on fearows locked into specific moves and sableye/misdreavus avoided 2hko from drill peck actually. Fearow is a lot less threatening than zangoose or stantler, as both have coverage moves to screw over any possible switch in. Both are more powerful than fearow and have more move options. Something like walrein is also a lot more centralizing teambuilding wise than fearow (even though fearow was only used for one tournament, way too soon to ban it on centralization reasoning)