Robofiend Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Edit: Furthermore, with pokemons like Aggron, Kabutops and Armaldo in the tier, Pinsir does not have that many switch ins options. Those pokemon have 1 or 2 moves a piece that hit Pinsir for neutral+ damage and are slower. All you have to do is bait the EQ/SP by sending in Hitmontop on a rock slide. Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 +2 252 Atk Pinsir Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 55-65 (31.9 - 37.7%) -- 91.6% chance to 3HKO 0 SpA Tangela Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir: 45-54 (32.1 - 38.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 3HKO 0 SpA Tangela Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir: 72-86 (51.4 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Against a Tangela without Hidden Power Fire, Pinsir could presumably win by going +4 with Swords Dance or getting a flinch. Although considering these calcs, I would happily consider 252/252+ Def Tangela a check to Pinsir. +2 252 Atk Pinsir Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 67-79 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery +2 252 Atk Pinsir Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 107-126 (60.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Atk Solrock Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir: 84-98 (60 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO A similar scenario plays out with 252/252+ Def Solrock against Pinsir, but unfortunately Pinsir really can't afford to go +4 with the risk of that STAB SE Rock Slide. An untimely Flinch makes Pinsir the likely winner and a Superpower against a damaged Solrock gets the knock out. To me, Solrock makes for a better check to Pinsir than Tangela. Link to comment
Gunthug Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 +2 252 Atk Pinsir Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangela: 55-65 (31.9 - 37.7%) -- 91.6% chance to 3HKO 0 SpA Tangela Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir: 45-54 (32.1 - 38.5%) -- 97.7% chance to 3HKO 0 SpA Tangela Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir: 72-86 (51.4 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Against a Tangela without Hidden Power Fire, Pinsir could presumably win by going +4 with Swords Dance or getting a flinch. Although considering these calcs, I would happily consider 252/252+ Def Tangela a check to Pinsir. +2 252 Atk Pinsir Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 67-79 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery +2 252 Atk Pinsir Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 107-126 (60.4 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 0 Atk Solrock Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pinsir: 84-98 (60 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO A similar scenario plays out with 252/252+ Def Solrock against Pinsir, but unfortunately Pinsir really can't afford to go +4 with the risk of that STAB SE Rock Slide. An untimely Flinch makes Pinsir the likely winner and a Superpower against a damaged Solrock gets the knock out. To me, Solrock makes for a better check to Pinsir than Tangela. just to bolster the solrock argument, i think reflect is a pretty viable option on it (though i dk if a 252 hp 252 def impish sol would run reflect) Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 (edited) Reflect's a bit overkill on the Rock, although it can be deadly in NU. I'd say screens are a hell of a lot more useful in NU than in any other tier. Also consider the fact that a pokemon doesn't need to be unchecked to be S-Rank, it just needs to be metagame defining and the best at doing its job (or multiple jobs), which when it comes to physical setup sweepers, Pinsir does/is in a very scary way. Sorry for douchebag boldface in advance. Edited July 22, 2015 by Robofiend DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Reflect's a bit overkill on the Rock, although it can be deadly in NU. I'd say screens are a hell of a lot more useful in NU than in any other tier. Also consider the fact that a pokemon doesn't need to be unchecked to be S-Rank, it just needs to be metagame defining and the best at doing its job (or multiple jobs), which when it comes to physical setup sweepers, Pinsir does/is in a very scary way. Sorry for douchebag boldface in advance. i completely agree with your characterization of S, but I will say that I don't think there's been enough time for any pokes to become metagame defining. Given what I've seen of NU I think pinsir is certainly headed that way, but maybe holding off like orange says is right. For example, I'm sure zangoose would have gone to S right after the PTS tourneys, but with each passing tourney it's fallen a little in utilitiy Robofiend and DoubleJ 2 Link to comment
OldKeith Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Pinsir is definitely a scary hard hitter, but the lack of STAB hurts a lot. Its not that fast either, and it is always prone to being revenge killed after killing something. Link to comment
gbwead Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 To me, Pinsir is pretty much a stronger and slower version of zangoose with no stab. He might have interresting resistances in fight/ground, but just like zangoose he doesn't have that many switch ins options. A set up Pinsir is extremely scary, but a decent player would probably make sure that never happens. Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 To me, Pinsir is pretty much a stronger and slower version of zangoose with no stab. He might have interresting resistances in fight/ground, but just like zangoose he doesn't have that many switch ins options. Except for the part where it has resistances to fighting/ground that let it switch in on those attacks: sure, it can't come in on Hitmontop or a Rock Slide, but if it comes in on an Absol Superpower or Armaldo EQ it can threaten both out (RS does over half to Armaldo, Absol dies to pretty much anything). It's a great teammate because it forms an offensive core with Hitmontop, who absorbs RockSlides, baits special attackers, and lets Pinsir deal with the stuff it can't handle as well. We should probably just drop Pinsir and move onto some other pokes: 1. Ampharos - likely A 2. Ninetales - likely A+ 3. Sharpedo - likely B+/A 4. Ninjask - likely S, lel DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 1. Ampharos - likely A 2. Ninetales - likely A+ Is there a reason why Ninetales should be considered more viable than Ampharos? They are really different pokemons. Ninetales is faster and has access to calm mind. Ampharos is bulkier, more powerful and one of the best clerics in the meta. He can also be a mixed attacker with Focus Punch. I would actually put Ampharos at A+ and Ninetales at A. Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Is there a reason why Ninetales should be considered more viable than Ampharos? Yes, first, Ninetales is fast and fast is good, especially when offense is usable. Ninetales can set up, can't be trapped by Diglett, can SunnyBeam, can Will-o-Wisp offensive switch ins. Basically, it has a lot of viable sets that do diffferent and scary things. Few pokes can readily come in on a Fire Blast without fear, and even fewer can do that without being afraid of getting blasted with a coverage move. Even Muk isn't a sure bet, since Extrasensory hurts it. Ampharos on the other hand is a little shallow. It struggles to effectively cover itself against checks because of its bad coverage. It relies heavily on Substitute, and since it's slow, good players can take advantage of its tendency to do this. Granted, Tbolt is terrifying, but Amphy finds itself needing to choose between HP Grass/Ice to break grass or ground types (i.e. Whishcash/Tangela/Roselia). Basically, I just see that Ninetales kills everything but Fire types (and it can kill those with SunnyBeam/HP Rock) and Ampharos has more checks, despite being more useful defensively. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
gbwead Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 I don't believe for a second that Ampharos coverage is worst than Ninetales. Just for the comparison: Ninetales Ampharos Wil-o-wisp thunder wave Fire Blast thunder Flamethrower thuderbolt Hidden power hidden power extrasensory signal beam solarbeam Focus punch calm mind agility fire punch / outrage (bad options) I might be forgetting some moves from both sides, but utimetly coverage is a problem for ninetales as much as it is a problem for ampharos. What is the difference between saying "ninetales needs hp rock for fire pokes" and "ampharos needs hp ice for grass/ground"? Flash fire is a great ability for ninetales and Static is a great ability for ampharos. Speed is great for offense and an electric bulky pokemon with heal bell is great for defense. Link to comment
Arimanius Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) Here I have to agree with Gbwead I see ampharos as A+, it's really bulky, it doesn't need hp ice to check grass types unless they're grass/poison since signal beam is supper effective the debate is between hp grass and water cause if u go for grass camerupt walls u completely but camerupt isn't that common so I would go for grass anyway. it can be a really nice wall and cleric cause of heal bell and screens and screens in nu are really good, it can be a mixed attacker, it has a great ability with static and great type since it only has one weakness. I see no reason to have ninetales above amphy in the worst case both should be A+ EDIT: Sharpedo I would go with B+, it's like too fragile, it hits hard ofc but even if it's banded you can check it really good with tangela, whiscash and even hitmontop, tangela only becomes garbage when mixed with ice beam but sharpedo can't even OHKO if adamant or jolly and it dies with only one giga drain so I wouldn't say Sharpedo is a A Edited July 23, 2015 by Arimanius Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 So why not both for A+? Ninetales most definitely meets the A+ criteria with it's above average speed, diverse movepool, and ability to hit hard from the go or set-up. Ampharos comes from a different perspective being that bulky monster that can take hits and deliver a significantly harder hit in return. gbwead, Robofiend and Arimanius 3 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Yeah, Ampharos could be A+, I think it's just way easier to wall than Tales since it gets stopped by Tangela/Whishcash, who are both solid pokes in their own rights. The Amphy agil set is scary for sure, kinda weird that no one's using it yet. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Thunderbolt, Signal Beam, HP Grass, Agility (Modest) RIP Tangela, Whiscash, and anything that cries to STAB Tbolt OldKeith, Arimanius and Robofiend 3 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Thunderbolt, Signal Beam, HP Grass, Agility (Modest) RIP Tangela, Whiscash, and anything that cries to STAB Tbolt Right, forgot about Sig Beam But that set can't bring down Aggron Link to comment
OldKeith Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Right, forgot about Sig Beam But that set can't bring down Aggron If only Thunderbolt 2-shot a 252 HP Aggron... oh wait. LionKIng and DoubleJ 2 Link to comment
Robofiend Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 If only Thunderbolt 2-shot a 252 HP Aggron... oh wait. Yeah but dat Quake Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 And honestly, what set can bring down Aggron 1v1 anyways? You'd need to rely on a Substitute to pull up that Focus Punch. Link to comment
OldKeith Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Yeah but dat Quake What about it? You underestimate the bulk of the Sheep. Let's take a standard Calm Ampharos with 252 HP, 128 Defenses vs a standard 252 HP 252 Atk Adamant Aggron. Thunderbolt does 51.4% - 61%. Earthquake does 61.9% - 73.1%. Since the sheep is faster, the sheep wins. Or, is your Aggron max speed? Well it will take 62.8% - 74.5% from a Thunderbolt. Link to comment
Gunthug Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 What about it? You underestimate the bulk of the Sheep. Let's take a standard Calm Ampharos with 252 HP, 128 Defenses vs a standard 252 HP 252 Atk Adamant Aggron. Thunderbolt does 51.4% - 61%. Earthquake does 61.9% - 73.1%. Since the sheep is faster, the sheep wins. Or, is your Aggron max speed? Well it will take 62.8% - 74.5% from a Thunderbolt. CB aggron is more likely, but it obviously can't come in on amph then (though given ur calc, neither can a max hp non CB one) 252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Ampharos: 180-214 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO Link to comment
DoubleJ Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Let's just leave this as... Aggron is bad and should be a B at best. Link to comment
gbwead Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 (edited) Let's just leave this as... Aggron is bad and should be a B at best. I wouldn't go that far. Aggron is an amazing special wall. He can come on cradily curse safely (very few pokemons can do that). He is also a good check to venomoth. Edit: He was one of the only counters to jynx in the pts and the meta without jynx doesn't make him less viable imo. Edited July 23, 2015 by lamerb Link to comment
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