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UU Tier Discussion Request Thread


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My question is, do we need, after the waiting period, to make porygon2 and umbreon OU because of the raise in usage even when they're not broken in UU? I mean, can't they be UU anyway? Cause I do like the fact than chansey moves to BL cause clearly it was not healthy but if they go we would only have clefable, quagsire and NU ones and that does make me worry

If porygon and umbreon stay UU with a significantly high usage in OU, I will request once again that cloyster gets move back down to "its rightful place" in UU XD

 

Ultimetaly, this will never happen unless we change tier policy which I don't think a lot of people are interrested in doing.

 

Hopefully, the potential ban of gengar will make umbreon and porygon usage drop.

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Unfortunately that's not how it works in our current tiering system. The decision was made just after the physical/special attack split that usage would dictate and determine what pokemon are in what tier. After a 2 month period, that is uninterrupted by a suspect test ban, usage will be evaluated and pokemon that are above or below the various "cut-offs" for each tier will be placed in said tiers accordingly. 

 

We really can't deter from this despite how much better we feel the meta would be by adding something like Cloyster to UU or something like Flareon to NU. Gotta stick to our guns here and maintain protocol that was set before us by the tier council. 

 

[spoiler] Usage based tiering is also a pretty damn good thing that keeps a lot of the "what ifs" out of decision making [/spoiler]

Edited by DoubleJ
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Unfortunately that's not how it works in our current tiering system. The decision was made just after the physical/special attack split that usage would dictate and determine what pokemon are in what tier. After a 2 month period, that is uninterrupted by a suspect test ban, usage will be evaluated and pokemon that are above or below the various "cut-offs" for each tier will be placed in said tiers accordingly. 

 

We really can't deter from this despite how much better we feel the meta would be by adding something like Cloyster to UU or something like Flareon to NU. Gotta stick to our guns here and maintain protocol that was set before us by the tier council. 

 

[spoiler] Usage based tiering is also a pretty damn good thing that keeps a lot of the "what ifs" out of decision making [/spoiler]

completely agree regarding the usage based tiering. We're in too deep at this point to turn back, and I think the results have been overwhelmingly positive using this system.

 

Re: the 2 month thing, I know it's "protocol" but it just seems like an extremely arbitrary number. Senile probably pulled it out of thin air, tbh

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And to note, I feel that the 2 month period is probably the shortest amount of time we should have between rearranging the tiers by usage. We don't want each of the metas to be in flux every two to three officials. If anything, I would suggest moving it to a 3 month period.

We're just experiencing a wierd period with the two back to back suspect tests in OU. Gotta have patience with this system.

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My question is, do we need, after the waiting period, to make porygon2 and umbreon OU because of the raise in usage even when they're not broken in UU? I mean, can't they be UU anyway? Cause I do like the fact than chansey moves to BL cause clearly it was not healthy but if they go we would only have clefable, quagsire and NU ones and that does make me worry

I mean, Forretress probably wouldn't be broken either, but these aren't strength-based tiers anymore, it's usage based.
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Yeah I actually was more on the side that we would lose options for sp def walls and support so people would have the same walls and the usage of those would obviously rise cause there wouldn't be too much of a option but I agree that we should be attached to the policy to avoid inconveniences and see things more in the right now and don't speculate about the future, thanks for clearing that out

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  • 3 weeks later...

Requesting a thread for Dusclops. 

Dusclops is something that I feel like fulfills the criteria of a Defensive Uber Characteristics. It's hard if not impossible to break from any given physical attacker in the tier barring Houndoom due to the move Will-O-Wisp and Pain Split to get all the HP back after Will-O-Wisped. Special offensive Pokemon will need usually set up to even a 3HKO a +252/252 Sp. Def Dusclops and since Dusclops has access to Haze this isn't a viable strategy either. Weather like Sunny Day Charizard or Rain Dance Omastar would be Dusclops, yes but that's a bit too situational to me.

I think this calc pretty much gives you an overall look of the bulk of Dusclops. Calm max Sp. Def imo is the best set mainly due to Will-O-Wisp being able to cover enough from the physical side and there aren't Guts users in UU tier despite Swellow but it really has a limited movepool against Dusclops anyways.

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dusclops: 42-51 (28.5 - 34.6%) -- 98.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Just.. look at this.

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Requesting a thread for Dusclops. 

Dusclops is something that I feel like fulfills the criteria of a Defensive Uber Characteristics. It's hard if not impossible to break from any given physical attacker in the tier barring Houndoom due to the move Will-O-Wisp and Pain Split to get all the HP back after Will-O-Wisped. Special offensive Pokemon will need usually set up to even a 3HKO a +252/252 Sp. Def Dusclops and since Dusclops has access to Haze this isn't a viable strategy either. Weather like Sunny Day Charizard or Rain Dance Omastar would be Dusclops, yes but that's a bit too situational to me.

I think this calc pretty much gives you an overall look of the bulk of Dusclops. Calm max Sp. Def imo is the best set mainly due to Will-O-Wisp being able to cover enough from the physical side and there aren't Guts users in UU tier despite Swellow but it really has a limited movepool against Dusclops anyways.

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dusclops: 42-51 (28.5 - 34.6%) -- 98.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Just.. look at this.

ban hypno?

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hypno: 46-55 (23.9 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I don't really think dusclops is that big of an issue, it either needs to go full sp def to take hits from sp atk'ers well or full def to take on some physical attackers, still losing to crawdaunt/houndoom regardless. Dusclops can't really immediately hurt special attackers either, even failing to ohko alakazam with shadow punch while being 2hko'ed by +1 psychic. It can't will o wisp charizard or alakazam because of the fire typing and synchronize respectively. 

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ban hypno?

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hypno: 46-55 (23.9 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

ecks dee. ok u really got me.

 

I don't really think dusclops is that big of an issue, it either needs to go full sp def to take hits from sp atk'ers well or full def to take on some physical attackers, still losing to crawdaunt/houndoom regardless. Dusclops can't really immediately hurt special attackers either, even failing to ohko alakazam with shadow punch while being 2hko'ed by +1 psychic. It can't will o wisp charizard or alakazam because of the fire typing and synchronize respectively. 

 

A defensive Uber doesn't need to wall alone everything, just a significant portion of the metagame and Dusclops just does that. The fixed 50 HP move shouldn't really underestimated at all, to be fair. Oh yeah, let's remember that Dusclops in fact can be a CM user itself so let's not completely negate its offensive presence but breaking Dusclops is just easily too meta centralizing. 

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Honestly, I think it immediately deserves a discussion thread, simply because ON PAPER it seems to be able to wall "a significant majority of the meta" - the calm 252 hp 252 sp def set with WoW covers an alarming amount of the meta. Questions like "will dusc's offensive prowess will be enough to force out the things it can handle," "will the weak recovery options allow for more answers than we can think of now," etc would be more easily answered if there was a focused thread for that discussion. It could go in the UU viability thread, I suppose

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  • 2 weeks later...

Request for a Chaizard discussion thread. A hard hitter on both ends with a blazing 100 speed and access to killer moves:

 

Special Set with sunny beam, boosted by blaze.

Physical belly drum, DD or SD set.

Mixed anti-meta set including: Crunch, Hidden Power, Focus Punch

 

Charizard hits hard, in theory each of his sets can be countered by very specific pokemon. In practice, by the time you figured out if you are facing a drummer or a special sweeper, it might be too late to do anything about it. I believe this one at least deserves a discussion.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Summerball is over, let's have that Zard discussion thread and let's put it to BL asap. Matches where I saw people sending Zard to counter another Zard aren't what we dream of in UU. All the other points were already made by Keith. I can elaborate of how powerful Zard is since I've been using it in literally every UU battle and it always took at least one (if not more- Gladiator stronk) poke from opposing team.

Would be cool if Sciz and Slowking would also gtfo cuz they're cancer.

Edited by RysPicz
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Summerball is over, let's have that Zard discussion thread and let's put it to BL asap. Matches where I saw people sending Zard to counter another Zard aren't what we dream of in UU. All the other points were already made by Keith. I can elaborate of how powerful Zard is since I've been using it in literally every UU battle and it always took at least one (if not more- Gladiator stronk) poke from opposing team.

Would be cool if Sciz and Slowking would also gtfo cuz they're cancer.

 

We have been discussing changes to UU for a bit now and you'll hopefully start to begin seeing those changes implemented. Unfortunately we are limited by tiering protocol that states we can only have one ban in the period of one month... soooo slow.

 

I personally would love to see Charizard, Rhydon, Scizor, and Swellow removed from UU, with Slowking being discussed heavily. Swellow being removed is just due to its ability to sweep damn near everything late-game and being able to outspeed the entire tier. Without Scizor to CB Pursuit trap it and Rhydon to wall its common attacks, I can see Swellow becoming a problem, but with the current tiering protocol, that's a discussion for another day. 

Edited by DoubleJ
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I'm up for it, glad you added Ride On, athough I'm unsure about Swellow- there is still Steelix in the tier that completly shits on Swellow, same for Aggron or Omastar. Omastar and Steelix are pretty common and Swellow was in the tier as undiscussed poke even before Ride On and Sciz arrived.

 

First things first, let us at least discuss Zard.

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I'm up for it, glad you added Ride On, athough I'm unsure about Swellow- there is still Steelix in the tier that completly shits on Swellow, same for Aggron or Omastar. Omastar and Steelix are pretty common and Swellow was in the tier as undiscussed poke even before Ride On and Sciz arrived.

 

First things first, let us at least discuss Zard.

 

Don't you worry bb, it's coming... if you know what I mean. 

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We have been discussing changes to UU for a bit now and you'll hopefully start to begin seeing those changes implemented. Unfortunately we are limited by tiering protocol that states we can only have one ban in the period of one month... soooo slow.

I personally would love to see Charizard, Rhydon, Scizor, and Swellow removed from UU, with Slowking being discussed heavily. Swellow being removed is just due to its ability to sweep damn near everything late-game and being able to outspeed the entire tier. Without Scizor to CB Pursuit trap it and Rhydon to wall its common attacks, I can see Swellow becoming a problem, but with the current tiering protocol, that's a discussion for another day.


The way I'm reading the tiering policies, multiple bans can occur within a month if the overseeing council signs off on it
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The way I'm reading the tiering policies, multiple bans can occur within a month if the overseeing council signs off on it

 

 

Although it hasn't been officially decided, we're still more inclined to not follow that policy as an absolute rule like it seemed to be. However, I shall add to this that I personally don't like the idea of banning multiple Pokemon at once at all but just mentioning this for clearance. I do think the overall idea of the policy needs to be followed which is not going nuts too early.

Edited by OrangeManiac
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We have been discussing changes to UU for a bit now and you'll hopefully start to begin seeing those changes implemented. Unfortunately we are limited by tiering protocol that states we can only have one ban in the period of one month... soooo slow.

 

I personally would love to see Charizard, Rhydon, Scizor, and Swellow removed from UU, with Slowking being discussed heavily. Swellow being removed is just due to its ability to sweep damn near everything late-game and being able to outspeed the entire tier. Without Scizor to CB Pursuit trap it and Rhydon to wall its common attacks, I can see Swellow becoming a problem, but with the current tiering protocol, that's a discussion for another day. 

I think Swellow should be able to stay, once Slowking/Scizor gets removed, Omastar and Steelix gets a lot less pressure off of them making their walling capabilities better. (also pls if you ban swellow manectric will go even more ham, it seems worse enough)

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Although it hasn't been officially decided, we're still more inclined to not follow that policy as an absolute rule like it seemed to be. However, I shall add to this that I personally don't like the idea of banning multiple Pokemon at once at all but just mentioning this for clearance. I do think the overall idea of the policy needs to be followed which is not going nuts too early.

Yeah i definitely see the downfall of a multi pokemon ban, but if one OP poke goes, and we know within 1-2 weeks (often 1-2 tournaments) that another clearly needs to go, I see no reason to wait one long month just to push that decision through. Tiering in general is a pretty fluid process - I think absolute rules should be few and far between.

 

 

We've been discussing it, and in this instance they seem to be fairly against it. 

that is unfortunate, but keep the pressure up. UU could really use some good old fashioned tiering

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  • 3 weeks later...

I was actually struggling with myself on what I should hop on first, friends think that Sciz is the real problem, I've seen people been spitting on Vileplume as it's literally in half of UU teams, and personally I want to jump on Slowking... I guess I'll stick to what I had in my mind. Everything will come in it's time I guess.

 

I would like to request for a discussion thread for Slowking.

Usually before I request a thread or ban, I build a broken poke myself and use it to prove how broken it is (see: Zam, Zard, Rhydon). Unfortunately in this example I do not run Slowking (although, I REALLY DID) but I've been observing a lot of tournaments and I hope that my experience from observations is enough to prove that it's place is in BL and not in UU.

 

1. Typing

 

Slowking's typing allows it to wall the most common and usually also most powerful threats in the metagame, giving it switches for practically 70% of the metagame. It's typing at first was used only to wall the omnipotent (and omnipresent) Hitmonlee who's STAB CB Superpower, as well as other coverage moves, was plowing through tier without any mercy. Now it grew to a top tier wall, able to wall majority of the viable pokes in UU.

It's typing grants it resistance to 6 attack types but most importantly, Water, Fighting and Fire. STAB Waterfalls, STAB Superpowers are nothing to it, and if/ when it gets hit by DEdge or Return, it can simply use Slack Off to recover the moves while you wear your own sweeper down with DEdge since Return rarely 2shots it (even with stab!).

 

2. Base stats

 

The base stats are making it an incredibly potent physical wall for UU standards. 95/80 is nothing to laugh at, as it's easily comparable to Blastoise's bulk, while Stoise does not have reliable recovery and resistance to fighting. Even most powerful physical strikers have huge trouble breaking through this defensive behemoth, wearing themselves down from both PP and HP (because Return does not 2shot in most cases) while it slacks off in your face. Good thing it doesn't have Regenerator here yet...

Another mentionable thing is it's really great natural 110 base special defense, that makes even the strongest of our special attackers in tier being unable to oneshot it. While it calm minds or slacks off or statuses them. But for that, another point has to be made. Anyway, continuing with base stats, it has a very good 100 base special attack stat, making it's both STABs being fired off a respectable 120 special attack stat that might (and usually is) get boosted further with Calm Mind. It's only downside is the 30 base speed, making it being outspeeded by practically entire metagame bar Shuckle but that's actually it.

 

3. Movepool

 

Slowking's movepool is absolutely insane, making it unpredictable to such a degree that it can counter literally every of it's checks.

Crawdaunt? It can Signal Beam or Thunder Wave.

Another Slowking? Toxic to slowly wear it down, or Signal Beam/ Shadow Ball to deal some damage to it.

Scizor? Have a tasty flamethrower in yo face.

Rarely, when Altaria comes to try setting up DD or with a weird restbell tox set, it can even icebeam it's ass.

Exeggutor would look reliable, but I doubt it'd like Signal Beam or Flamethrower. Especially the first one.

Obviously with such a large movepool, it's practically impossible to cover all the necessary threats thus Slowking suffers a strong 4MSS, which does not really stop it from doing it's job- walling the meta like a... king.

Slowking's most important move is Slack Off, which made both Slowking and Slowbro top threats in their respectable tiers. Pairing it with Calm Mind, very often changes Slowking into undefeatable walking battle tank with both sides of it's defense powerful enough to swallow any strike and retaliate with a boosted special attack.

 

Problem is that you cannot really predict what Slowking will throw on you until it already does, and the most reliable switch-in for it without Umbreon and Porygon2, became Clefable or Kanga, and you can see that in usage statistics. The biggest reason of spike in their usage is their ability to stop Slowking from statusing your whole team or scare it off with Tox while shrugging off the status of it's own with Aroma/ Rest. No offensive pokemon (unless you know Slowking has Twave and you are brave enough to switch in your Manectric, or you know it has toxic and your Swellow just waits to get the Guts Facade boost) will risk getting statused.

And obviously the Slowking v Slowking matchups where we got the delightful CM war and "who gets the first crit" which I've seen happening few times although the status version of Slowking is taking over.

 

Only solution to defeat Slowking is to wear it down with Toxic. Or crit it with a powerful STAB Thunderbolt or Crunch if you are overToasted.

 

Reassuming:

 

Slowking:

+Spreads status
+Bulky enough on both sides to wall absolute majority of metagame, especially after a CM boost
+Delightful CM wars
+Reliable recovery
+Strong dual STAB
+Great SATK stat for a wall
+Insane movepool


-Slow

 

I'd really like to at least see a discussion thread for it as in almost every tournament it's in top 3 most used pokemon along with Plume.

Edited by RysPicz
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  • 4 weeks later...

So I'd like to ask the community for help on this one: 

 

As many of you have witnessed, UU is extremely stall-heavy at the moment. Almost all of the top-used are walls and all of the top-used sweepers have trouble breaking through cores like Plume/King which are very common in the current metagame. The Tier Council believes UU deserves some more offense but we're not sure of how to do it. Among the current suggestions are:

 

1. Ban Slowking - this is popular but maybe undesirable - Slowking checks sweepers like CB Crawdaunt stuck in Waterfall, CB Scizor and CB Hitmonlee. Banning Slowking might rob the tier of even more offensive pokemon, which means we might end up with just as much stall afterward as we have now. Current annoying sets like Twave or Calm Mind fall to Toxic, while most sets struggle against popular special walls like Clefable and Kangaskhan, who can simply Toxic Stall or heal status before it becomes a problem.

 

2. Ban Vileplume - more common than even Slowking, Vileplume also has great typing to prevent Crawdaunt, Hitmonlee and Breloom from tearing through the tier with their STAB attacks. There is some concern that banning Vileplume would make other top tier sweepers a problem as well, as well as the fact that its limited Synthesis PP doesn't allow it to outstall other common walls that can force it out of play, like Clefable.

 

In either of these cases, it doesn't seem abundantly obvious that either are truly "broken" or even considerably unhealthy. Both are weak against special walls and fail against faster offense like Grumpig, who is not often used, but in theory could set up against either.

 

Other suggestions include:

 

1. Banning Dusclops - the god of spinblockers, this pokemon alone makes Omastar and Tentacruel fail at their jobs as spinners. When used as part of a stall team, Dusclops proves incredibly hard to break. Nonetheless, Dusclops stall teams aren't super common, and it struggles with things like Houndoom, who's not entierly uncommon.

 

2. Bringing down offensive threats from BL - since it's not clear that anything is particularly OP (unhealthy, maybe, but we don't have a lot of true S Ranks), maybe it'd be better if we brought down offensive pokemon that limit these common walls viability. In the past, bans have happened in metas that are different from the one we have now, and the lack of available wall-breakers and mixed attackers in UU is very apparent. Some ideas include:

- Alakazam

- Tauros

- Medicham

- Sceptile

- Marowak

 

While Tauros and Medicham are both theatening as hell without Dusclops to dodge their STAB attacks, others here are less scary. Sceptile can provide good damage output against both Vileplume and Slowking, as well as support its team with SubSeed (which is in turn checked by Plume). Zam has checks like Swellow, Scizor, Houndoom, Dusclops and Kangaskhan/Clefable and its poor defenses can be unforgiving if it needs to switch in multiple times. Marowak, a former top-tier wallbreaker in OU lacks the typing and speed that makes other physical sweepers threatening in UU, but it can easily abuse grounded stall teams by Swords Dancing and breaking through popular cores without getting too afraid of Toxic Damage or Twave. Similar to Rhydon, Marowak struggles to deal with Offense, but it also cannot OHKO Vileplume or Slowking without a boost, thus giving it incentive to set up and switch ins and opportunity to enter battle without taking a lot of damage. It might have trouble entering battle - especially given the lack of Electric and Rock type moves used in the tier today and unlike Rhydon it lacks useful resistances to Normal, Fire and Flying.

 

By no means are these the only options, but I do think it's important that people discuss these various options because there are a lot of different ways the tier can go and having lots of input is usually the best way to make decisions. By all accounts, it seems UU is not a super healthy or enjoyable tier at the moment (almost all of the top 10 pokemon in the tier are walls and we only have 1 option for special sweeper, Manectric) and that we need a way for offense to gain a little bit of viability for the tier to be enjoyable. 

 

I hope this is the right thread to put this in, yolo.

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