UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[RysPicz]

Just now, Flavawhat said:

isnt claydol kinda the perfect answer vs golems? rhydon would shit on it though

Not really, lack of reliable recovery makes it continously take damage until it breaks, not to mention it's prone to Pursuit which severely limits it's utility as a Golem counter

[OrangeManiac]

@RysPicz 

 

Pretty sure Rhydon was initially banned in the initial UU tier alongside with like 10 other Pokemon. When ThinkNice questioned (vetoed) the huge banlist, Rhydon was one of the Pokemon to be brought back to UU and community just felt so uneasy having Rhydon in the mesh so Rhydon got banned to create some sort of a stability in the metagame. Pretty sure it has not been brought back more than once and the circumstances were really different. If you feel Rhydon is too strong, then fair enough but I don't feel as the past discussions should be really applicable now. In addition, I think you overestimate Rhydon's ability to get a kill and this bases on my experience of running a Golem in current UU tier. Sure, you need to predict against to switch in smoothly after Rhydon comes in to revenge kill but running Golem I feel as at most you have 2/4 moves you can use to predict correctly a switch in.

 

When Golem became UU by usage after Sturdy and its buff, I was honestly waiting for a UU Tier Discussion to torch up how this thing is cancer and needs to be immediately banned. I didn't want to start the discussion about Golem myself because I wanted to see how the community reacts to it. When Golem became UU by usage and had been there for 2 months and when no one had yet said a thing I thought "oh damn, maybe the community just figured out Rhydon's stance in our current meta as well", hence why I initiated this discussion here. But looks I was wrong. If what I'm arguing here has at least sparked a some kind of a consideration of bringing it into discussion whether Golem should be banned then I consider my work here done, and finally someone (Forfi) in this thread finally points out that "Hey, Golem is possibly cancer too".

[Suneet]

11 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

Golem is cancer

this

[Suneet]

LF Golem discussion thread

 

@TierCouncil

[LuisPocho]

you kidding? UU is looking quite good now that everbody use NU pokes

[RysPicz]

Golem actually IS cancer as fuck. I might try to elaborate after I will get 1st rounded in the NU official

[Gunthug]

Golem will definitely be a topic of discussion at this coming months tier council meeting, I've been having thoughts about it ever since orange's Rhydon post 

[gbwead]

I agree that Golem is a problem, but I don't think it would fit the Offensive Uber Characteristic. It might be unhealthy tho.

[Suneet]

3 hours ago, RysPicz said:

after I will get 1st rounded in the NU official

lol

[RysPicz]

6 minutes ago, Suneet said:

lol

Yeah it went a bit different than expected

 

Well top kek I didn't get first rounded so I apologize for the delay. This might turn into one long ass post

 

I would want to request a discussion thread for Golem.

For a pretty long time I was looking at Golem from perspective of being similar, but worse- due to moveset and base stats- than Rhydon. But then, Golem has all the tools it needs to be really, really fucking scary. Fire Punch disposes of Scizor, EQ + Rock Blast kill practically anything else. As fourth move it has some good options too (Superpower, Thunderpunch, Allahuakbar) but all it needs is EQ + Rock Blast usually to make your life a 50/50 gamble. Golem literally has no answers in UU- Meganium can get 2shoted by 4 +4 hits rock blast and this is the most solid Golem answer available in the tier. And most importantly, Golem has sturdy, which means that it will always be able to hit something hard at least once before it does.

15 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I agree that Golem is a problem, but I don't think it would fit the Offensive Uber Characteristic. It might be unhealthy tho.

I belive, it actually is an offensive uber. It does not have a single switch in the entire tier, everything will get either one or 2shoted. Once Golem is out, you have to gamble with the life of your pokemons.

 

I had some experience with using Golem in OU actually. I know it's kinda off topic but I would just want to share my thoughts. We all know how Rhydon gets countered by Milotic when it just invests few EVs into speed. With Golem, the story is different. I will describe a situation from my game:

 

I lead with Golem, my opponet leads with Metagross. He switches into Milotic, I rock blast. 4 hits. I outspeed next turn, 3 hits, Milotic is down. My opponet goes into Starmie, surfs me. I stay in, I rock blast again. 4 Hits, star is down.

And this was just my lead. Golem is really, really good even by OU standards right now. Current UU meta reminds me of how it looked like when we had Granbulls everywhere. You either lead with Granbull or an anti-granbull lead. Now you either lead with Golem or an anti-golem lead... It's not only an offensive uber but also incredibly centralizing and it's the main reason for a huge spike in Meganium's usage.

 

 

Apart from Golem, I think it's high time to give the Aligator a chance to shine in UU. We have a lot of checks for it, some really powerful counters as well. There's Meganium, Vapo, Slowking, Cloyster, Lapras, Lanturn, Quag, Stoise, maybe even Plume. I think UU has enough of wallpower to test Gator, especially now when we have an established meta with Vapo which is pretty much a hard counter for it.

Edited February 19, 2017 by RysPicz

[LifeStyle]

iirc SD Fera can break pretty much any of UU's walls

[RysPicz]

4 minutes ago, LifeStyle said:

iirc SD Fera can break pretty much any of UU's walls

Can't break Meganium, Vapo, Quag, Lapras- at least these 4, depending on it's moveset (bold lapras might struggle vs superpower but lol who would run that). Blastoise can wall it as well. Omastar might do it too, same for Slowking if it lacks Crunch. Plus, it needs SD to actually wallbreak which takes a turn to setup. It would also need 2 swords dances if it chooses not to carry life orb. It's not the fastest poke in the tier either.

Edited February 19, 2017 by RysPicz

[NikhilR]

Ya pls ban Golem, it's the main reason I lost my PSL match.

 

 

In all serious, Golem is really unhealthy. Firstly because the only way for the non Golem user to have the better lead matchup, is by running another sturdy pokemon like donphan, meganium or a bullet seed user even. The second way of how Golem is unhealthy is pretty obvious, to run something that can handle it. It's not like there aren't options available like Claydol, but that pokemon's viability in UU is really bad because of how passive it is. While Meganium is an amazing pokemon all on its own, it isn't irreplaceable and one of the high reasons for its usage is Golem indeed.

 

[LifeStyle]

30 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

Can't break Meganium, Vapo, Quag, Lapras- at least these 4, depending on it's moveset (bold lapras might struggle vs superpower but lol who would run that). Blastoise can wall it as well. Omastar might do it too, same for Slowking if it lacks Crunch. Plus, it needs SD to actually wallbreak which takes a turn to setup. It would also need 2 swords dances if it chooses not to carry life orb. It's not the fastest poke in the tier either.

You could just use a set of Waterfall/Ice Punch/Superpower/SD paired with CB Absol for Slowking, +2 orb Ice Punch basically kills Meganium with some prior damage, Vapo/Quag/Toise can't do much really and just let you go +4 and then die to Superpower, not even gonna mention Lapras. And if your argument is going to be that it's not a fast poke and gets revenge killed by faster stuff (not even a lot of the faster stuff can kill Fera tho), you pretty much get the same thing with Golem, so why ask to ban a potentially broken mon just to bring another potentially broken mon

[Gunthug]

To be honest, it doesn't sit too well with me that we never even gave feraligatr a chance, even though recently we've been leaning towards giving stuff a test before jumping to conclusions. That being said, we wouldn't want to toss it into a metagame in flux, so we'll have to see what usage drops/rises we have this next usage period before having a discussion about gatr

[epicdavenport]

10 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

To be honest, it doesn't sit too well with me that we never even gave feraligatr a chance, even though recently we've been leaning towards giving stuff a test before jumping to conclusions. That being said, we wouldn't want to toss it into a metagame in flux, so we'll have to see what usage drops/rises we have this next usage period before having a discussion about gatr

Can't imagine the usage being very high I hardly ever see it anymore.

[Gunthug]

3 minutes ago, epicdavenport said:

Can't imagine the usage being very high I hardly ever see it anymore.

I'm saying other stuff might be coming down from OU to UU and we wouldn't wanna test two things at a time, since a negative effect on the meta is harder to pinpoint/measure

[DoubleJ]

Are we even testing anything in uu right now? Vap came down, but it seems to be stable.

 

I'd recommend looking at the borderline list and figuring if we can drop anything. Hari, machamp, fera, etc etc. Could be worth it.

[Artemiseta]

Testing vap now can test gator depending on drops we didn't want to reintroduce vap and gator at same time

[DoubleJ]

5 hours ago, Artemiseta said:

Testing vap now can test gator depending on drops we didn't want to reintroduce vap and gator at same time

If Vap stays, Feraligatr should certainly be able to find a place since Vaporeon checks it quite well. Even +2 Flail has difficulty trying to kill Bold Vap. 

 

+2 252+ Atk Feraligatr Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 210-248 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

[BurntZebra]

5 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

If Vap stays, Feraligatr should certainly be able to find a place since Vaporeon checks it quite well. Even +2 Flail has difficulty trying to kill Bold Vap. 

 

+2 252+ Atk Feraligatr Flail (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 210-248 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Feraligatr could easily set up to +6 vs vaporeon realistically. Sub sd can just set up freely on vaporeons that don't run hidden power, and endure can set up on any that don't run toxic. 

 

I'm against feraligatr moving down for the most part. If people are complaining about golem forcing people to run meganium/quagsire to deal with it, then feraligatr just makes that a whole new level. The dragon dance set can only be stopped by meganium/thunder wave slowking somewhat reliably, as dragon dance boosts feraligatr above sneasel levels of speed and very few defensive things actually are capable of doing any significant damage to it. And then the SD set deals with meganium/slowking/quagsire a lot better than the DD set, requiring you to run something that is faster than feraligatr and something that can actually threaten it, so something like sneasel doesn't work since it only 3hko's feraligatr. 

 

I think introducing feraligatr will definitely cause more problems than any problems it would fix (if any problems). I would say the main problems with UU right now are just centralizing offensive threats and centralizing defensive cores. Feraligatr would only add to both of those, being an offensive threat, and forcing people to run several countermeasures for it. If we felt that UU was in a state of needing change, I would say banning some centralizing thing is the better cure, rather than throwing something else into the mix that will cause more centralization. 

[DoubleJ]

14 minutes ago, BurntZebra said:

Feraligatr could easily set up to +6 vs vaporeon realistically. Sub sd can just set up freely on vaporeons that don't run hidden power, and endure can set up on any that don't run toxic. 

 

I'm against feraligatr moving down for the most part. If people are complaining about golem forcing people to run meganium/quagsire to deal with it, then feraligatr just makes that a whole new level. The dragon dance set can only be stopped by meganium/thunder wave slowking somewhat reliably, as dragon dance boosts feraligatr above sneasel levels of speed and very few defensive things actually are capable of doing any significant damage to it. And then the SD set deals with meganium/slowking/quagsire a lot better than the DD set, requiring you to run something that is faster than feraligatr and something that can actually threaten it, so something like sneasel doesn't work since it only 3hko's feraligatr. 

 

I think introducing feraligatr will definitely cause more problems than any problems it would fix (if any problems). I would say the main problems with UU right now are just centralizing offensive threats and centralizing defensive cores. Feraligatr would only add to both of those, being an offensive threat, and forcing people to run several countermeasures for it. If we felt that UU was in a state of needing change, I would say banning some centralizing thing is the better cure, rather than throwing something else into the mix that will cause more centralization. 

Haze / Roar Vap, that or just run HP Grass or Electric. Quag slows it down too and also can also carry Haze.

 

Just a thought. 

[BurntZebra]

2 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Haze / Roar Vap, that or just run HP Grass or Electric. Quag slows it down too and also can also carry Haze.

 

Just a thought. 

Vaporeon is already pressed pretty hard for moves. Definitely wants wish+protect+surf, left with being walled by grass types/altaria or water types or special walls, depending on what your 4th move is. Also hidden power only 3hkos feraligatr so feraligatr still gets to +4 vs vaporeon 1v1, which is plenty for what feraligatr needs. 

 

Haze doesn't really fit on quagsire that well. It really needs toxic for set up stuff, and that's like relying on haze quagsire to deal with SD scizor. I wouldn't count on it. Haze quagsire might have more of a niche if it had more offense to go along with it, but haze is pretty useless if its like sd crawdaunt vs quagsire, and you tank the crunch, live with like 20%, then haze, and now crawdaunt is still full hp and quagsire is one hit from dying. Haze would have more of a niche in UU if there were haze users that could deal with curse miltank+cradily, but the only one that somewhat fits the bill is altaria, otherwise swords dance scizor is the more reliable way to deal with curse users, and any other form of boosting is generally countered more by something other than haze. 

[Suneet]

Will we have a verdict on Golem before the tour on Friday?

[gbwead]

17 minutes ago, Suneet said:

Will we have a verdict on Golem before the tour on Friday?

No. The tier council meetings are usually scheduled on the first Sunday of the month which mean after Friday's tournament. I would not except any tier change or bans before that.