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UU Tier Discussion Request Thread


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The UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

 

This thread is for the community to make suggestions to the tier council for [Discussion] threads to be opened. All posts will be heavily moderated by myself and there are strict guidelines that all posters must follow when posting in this thread. All general meta discussion is to take part in the UU viability thread.

 

Rules:

  • All Off Topic and low content posts will be removed, anyone found to continually be violating this rule will receive a posting restriction. 
  • All requests must come with clear and concise argumentation to justify why a discussion thread will be opened by a tier council member. Posts like "X Pokemon needs to have a thread" or "X Pokemon needs to have a thread because it is really strong" will not be counted as valid and will be removed.
  • Joke posts for Pokemon suggestions will be removed and considered spam.
  • Posts that disagree with another poster's requests are not allowed, if you do not believe that Pokemon is a top tier threat then you need to argue it's place in the viability ranking thread. You are however, welcome to post additional information/arguments that you feel a poster has missed, other than that you can like the post to show your support and agreement. 

Things to consider:

  • You may want to provide damage calculations to strengthen your argument, this can be done here. Please remember to select the DPP tab. 
  • It would be beneficial to provide a clear reason why you feel this Pokemon needs to be discussed. For example, do you believe it falls under the Uber characteristic? The defensive characteristic? Ect....
  • Think carefully before you suggest a Pokemon, it is not a competition to be the one who suggests the most Pokemon. Senile's guide to tiering discussions is a good place to start for those unfamiliar with tier discussions: https://forums.pokem...tiquette-guide/

All Competition Alley rules still apply!

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Sigh, this thread.

Is this permission for a the requester to make, or a request for a UU tier council member to make the thread? Is that what opening a [Discussion] thread means? Just need clarification :P

 

Alright anyway, I want to make a request for a Chansey thread, despite the previous one just being scoffed at, to arise in order to discuss moving it up to BL from UU. The talk on the UU Viability thread about the tier in general leads me to believe the pokemon should be discussed. I believe Chansey is unhealthy for the UU meta, in a similar but not equal way as Umbreon was. I believe Chanseys defensive and support characteristics are both big enough to have a negative effect on the tier. Chansey limits team building and dissuades players from running threats which would otherwise be strong, such as Manectric and what not. Its ability to spam Wish/Protect and shrug off status with Natural Cure gives some solid longevity in battles. Seismic Toss and Toxic give it enough pressure to cripple pokemon which would otherwise counter it such as Granbull, Crawdaunt, or Hitmonlee. those examples are slowly crippled by toxic and toss in combination and CB sets are easily scouted through Protect. There are not many safe counters to Chansey to the point where it influences species specific counter such as Trapinch. I acknowledge Trapinch's use on Steelix, but I also acknowledge that Steelix has nowhere near the influence that Chansey does on team building. I all in all believe that Chansey is dissuading players from playing certain styles and using certain pokemon through its defensive and support characteristics. Leaving Chansey in UU will lead to a stagnant and, might I say, boring meta. I don't think that is the direction we should be heading with the tier.

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Sigh, this thread.

Is this permission for a the requester to make, or a request for a UU tier council member to make the thread? Is that what opening a [Discussion] thread means? Just need clarification :P

 

Alright anyway, I want to make a request for a Chansey thread, despite the previous one just being scoffed at, to arise in order to discuss moving it up to BL from UU. The talk on the UU Viability thread about the tier in general leads me to believe the pokemon should be discussed. I believe Chansey is unhealthy for the UU meta, in a similar but not equal way as Umbreon was. I believe Chanseys defensive and support characteristics are both big enough to have a negative effect on the tier. Chansey limits team building and dissuades players from running threats which would otherwise be strong, such as Manectric and what not. Its ability to spam Wish/Protect and shrug off status with Natural Cure gives some solid longevity in battles. Seismic Toss and Toxic give it enough pressure to cripple pokemon which would otherwise counter it such as Granbull, Crawdaunt, or Hitmonlee. those examples are slowly crippled by toxic and toss in combination and CB sets are easily scouted through Protect. There are not many safe counters to Chansey to the point where it influences species specific counter such as Trapinch. I acknowledge Trapinch's use on Steelix, but I also acknowledge that Steelix has nowhere near the influence that Chansey does on team building. I all in all believe that Chansey is dissuading players from playing certain styles and using certain pokemon through its defensive and support characteristics. Leaving Chansey in UU will lead to a stagnant and, might I say, boring meta. I don't think that is the direction we should be heading with the tier.

Thanks for your request: I have forwarded the Chansey case to the UU Council and we'll decide whether to make a Discussion thread soon.

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I would like to make a request for a thread about Cloyster potentially moving back to UU.

Without being a powerful offensive threat, Cloyster does threaten – with spikes – a metagame that is mostly based on endless stalling (chansey, vileplume, steelix, …) and constant switching with little to no punishment. Spikes are threatening but the UU meta can handle them very well too.

It is a shame that the very good spinners of UU (Blastoise, Tentacruel, Hitmonlee, Donphan, Claydol and maybe Cloyster that brings the solution to the problem he might create) are unable to support their team like they could.

[hr]
Unlike Omastar – who seems to be the only viable spiker of the UU – Cloyster can switch in decently on most of the physical water type pokemons that seems to do very well, arguable maybe too well. With their perfect coverage, Kingler and Azumarill (Crawdaunt to some extant) have been able to dismantle a lot of UU teams with little to no skill required. Spamming Double-Edge and Waterfall is disconcerting when there is no wall to counter this brainless play style.

Adamant Azumarill/ Bold Cloyster:
[spoiler]252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cloyster: 30-36 (19.1 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cloyster: 60-71 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO[/spoiler]
No one beside Shedinja (…) can come in on those moves and survive the next turn.
Cloyster in UU will not mean the end of Azumarill:
[spoiler]252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cloyster: 120-142 (76.4 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cloyster: 100-118 (63.6 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO[/spoiler]
[hr]
The very popular Exeggutor, Vileplume and Houndoom would have to think twice before switching in on Cloyster Ice Beam / Surf.
Bold Cloyster / Calm Vileplume:
[spoiler]0 SpA Cloyster Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vileplume: 74-90 (40.6 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 156-186 (99.3 - 118.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO[/spoiler]
Bold Closter/ Bold Exeggutor:
[spoiler]0 SpA Cloyster Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Exeggutor: 134-158 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Exeggutor Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 188-224 (119.7 - 142.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO[/spoiler]
Cloyster being faster than both Vileplume and Exeggutor, this pressure could lead to an interesting dynamic.
Houndoom, faster than Cloyster, threaten Cloyster while still being scared of Surf.
Bold Cloyster / Hasty Houndoom
[spoiler]0 SpA Cloyster Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 114-134 (76 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
184 SpA Houndoom Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 126-150 (80.2 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO[/spoiler]
[hr]
Cloyster, even though can be scary with stab ice beam and surf + explosion, still have several counters.
Nearly all water type can handle him. He might be able to switch in on Azumarill and Kingler, but he won’t stop them entirely.

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I wish this to be true, but I haven't seen any indication (on the forum) to support that.
If possible, please tell me how you know this.

Whether a pokemon is moved down from OU to UU is based on their usage in OU. I'm guessing he's saying that due to lower Cloyster usage in OU.

 

Other than that, if your request is to just move down Cloyster just because it won't break the tier, the answer is no. Pokemon aren't moved down from a higher tier to a lower tier just because they'd be okay in the lower tier; The point of lower tiers is that they're places for pokemon who can't succeed in higher tiers to be playable in. What's the point of having a tier for pokemon who don't work in OU if one of the most popular pokemon in it are used in OU anyway?

 

You can argue that it might be more balanced, but not only do we not know that for sure, but that doesn't really change anything. I've seen a lot of people want Forretress and Cloyster back, and the depth of the reasoning that I can see is "they were in UU before and they were balanced and now they aren't, they should be in UU again"; Nobody's saying they'd be broken or bad for UU, but that's just not how we do things anymore.

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what if a poke at a moment had low usage in ou and got moved down and seemed to fit very well in the uu tier and, then people began to use it in ou so it got higher usage. Would it when get moved up again even through it wasn't too good for uu?

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what if a poke at a moment had low usage in ou and got moved down and seemed to fit very well in the uu tier and, then people began to use it in ou so it got higher usage. Would it when get moved up again even through it wasn't too good for uu?

 

That's how usage works

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Requesting a discussion thread for Machamp. What was happening on today's UU is the best proof that this needs to go away asap. It's sheer power of destroying walls is way too much for what we got in UU right now. Usually carries CB or Bulk Up Set, both are equally dangerous, carries a powerful Fighting STAB backed up by it's insane 130 base atk stat, fantastic ability in guts, and choice band or bulkup boost and 120 BP Superpower, even though slower, it simply outclasses WEELEE which already is an "S" ranked pokemon. Let's not also forget that it's quite bulky. It sweeps the majority if not the whole tier and is very hard to stop- falls under uber offensive characteristics.

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Requesting move-down for Hariyama. It's a weaker version of Machamp, and since Machamp is allowed in, so should Hariyama.

See below

Requesting a discussion thread for Machamp. What was happening on today's UU is the best proof that this needs to go away asap. It's sheer power of destroying walls is way too much for what we got in UU right now. Usually carries CB or Bulk Up Set, both are equally dangerous, carries a powerful Fighting STAB backed up by it's insane 130 base atk stat, fantastic ability in guts, and choice band or bulkup boost and 120 BP Superpower, even though slower, it simply outclasses WEELEE which already is an "S" ranked pokemon. Let's not also forget that it's quite bulky. It sweeps the majority if not the whole tier and is very hard to stop- falls under uber offensive characteristics.

Your request is being processed atm.

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Requesting (again) a discussion thread for Chansey.

 

Sigh, this thread.

Is this permission for a the requester to make, or a request for a UU tier council member to make the thread? Is that what opening a [Discussion] thread means? Just need clarification :P

 

Alright anyway, I want to make a request for a Chansey thread, despite the previous one just being scoffed at, to arise in order to discuss moving it up to BL from UU. The talk on the UU Viability thread about the tier in general leads me to believe the pokemon should be discussed. I believe Chansey is unhealthy for the UU meta, in a similar but not equal way as Umbreon was. I believe Chanseys defensive and support characteristics are both big enough to have a negative effect on the tier. Chansey limits team building and dissuades players from running threats which would otherwise be strong, such as Manectric and what not. Its ability to spam Wish/Protect and shrug off status with Natural Cure gives some solid longevity in battles. Seismic Toss and Toxic give it enough pressure to cripple pokemon which would otherwise counter it such as Granbull, Crawdaunt, or Hitmonlee. those examples are slowly crippled by toxic and toss in combination and CB sets are easily scouted through Protect. There are not many safe counters to Chansey to the point where it influences species specific counter such as Trapinch. I acknowledge Trapinch's use on Steelix, but I also acknowledge that Steelix has nowhere near the influence that Chansey does on team building. I all in all believe that Chansey is dissuading players from playing certain styles and using certain pokemon through its defensive and support characteristics. Leaving Chansey in UU will lead to a stagnant and, might I say, boring meta. I don't think that is the direction we should be heading with the tier.

Fucking, do it.

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I would agree on this. Wish support is wayyyy too fricken easy with this girl. Toss in protect and CB users that frighten her are literally rendered useless outside of crawdaunt with stab crunch that can hit most of the common pokes. She is probably the lone reason for 80+ minute matches.

I love her, but she is certainly uber support with wish + protect scouting. Even twave/toxic spam provides insane support. Oh it can be a cleric too? Rip.


Edit: we gave her a shot which was warranted, but she proved to be a problem.

Edited by DoubleJ
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  • 2 weeks later...

UU is in a bit of a conundrum. We have 12 bans to Borderline and multiple requests to ban Chansey, which many believe to be the biggest problem today. Our meta is currently in a bit of tight pickle considering it can't add or subtract any pokemon based on usage, due to the suspect testing in OU. Despite all of this though, we even made a couple drastic additions by bringing back down Umbreon, Alakazam, Charizard, Slowking, Scizor, and Machamp (moved back to BL). 

 

Nevertheless, I decided to outline a few changes that I feel would be beneficial for the tier to take a step forward.

 

Proposed Changes to the PokeMMO Underused Tier:

 

1. Ban Chansey to Borderline

 

Chansey is clearly Uber under the defensive characteristic. It walls all special attackers, mostly because we lack a reliable Fighting special-attack, and it can stall out many UU Walls with Wish + Protect + Seismic Toss + Toxic. It can also hurt many Choice Band users by simply using Protect to scout the incoming move. While this isn't necessarily a reason to ban it, it is another reason supporting its ability to stall out your opponent.

 

Pros: Special Attackers will become more viable without Chansey, the meta will no longer revolve around Chansey, other play-styles can flourish without the dominance of Chansey and stall

Cons: Special Attackers like Alakazam may become too powerful and a reliance on Umbreon might develop

 

2. Suspect Test Alakazam when Chansey is Banned

 

Without Chansey, I feel that Alakazam would prove to be a problem in UU. While this is simply an assumption, I would hope that an immediate suspect test would be made to figure out if this thing is a problem. While Umbreon is a good counter, I would hate to see an Umbreon on 70% of teams just to stop a possible Alakazam threat. There are multiple things that can check Alakazam outright, but the threat of an unknown Hidden Power could foil those plans.

 

Pros: Alakazam has the speed and power to plow through a team without a reliable special wall, making it potentially Uber by the Offensive Characteristic there aren't many options to switch in on Zam, Alakazam will become one hell of a revenge killer

Cons: We have answers in UU for Alakazam, namely Priority attacks, steel-types (if no HP Fire), and dark-types (if no Signal Beam), it's also pretty frail and can't switch in on an attack itself

 

 

3. Players should begin to embrace the offensive approach

 

Underused has an amazing array of offensive threats, from Swellow to Manectric to CM Slowking to SD Zangoose to Flail Kingler, but unfortunately players are just using the same old stall team. Whether this is because of how good Chansey is or whether it's just a comfortable tactic, a very effective play-style is being passed up for another. In my assessment, once players begin to shake up the meta for themselves there could be some real diversity developing. 

 

Players should use their own creativity rather than copying the team that won the previous UU Official.

 

 

Addendum: We're all special snowflakes. Even that cute li'l brown boy Senile. 

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UU is in a bit of a conundrum. We have 12 bans to Borderline and multiple requests to ban Chansey, which many believe to be the biggest problem today. Our meta is currently in a bit of tight pickle considering it can't add or subtract any pokemon based on usage, due to the suspect testing in OU. Despite all of this though, we even made a couple drastic additions by bringing back down Umbreon, Alakazam, Charizard, Slowking, Scizor, and Machamp (moved back to BL). 

 

Nevertheless, I decided to outline a few changes that I feel would be beneficial for the tier to take a step forward.

 

Proposed Changes to the PokeMMO Underused Tier:

 

1. Ban Chansey to Borderline

 

Chansey is clearly Uber under the defensive characteristic. It walls all special attackers, mostly because we lack a reliable Fighting special-attack, and it can stall out many UU Walls with Wish + Protect + Seismic Toss + Toxic. It can also hurt many Choice Band users by simply using Protect to scout the incoming move. While this isn't necessarily a reason to ban it, it is another reason supporting its ability to stall out your opponent.

 

Pros: Special Attackers will become more viable without Chansey, the meta will no longer revolve around Chansey, other play-styles can flourish without the dominance of Chansey and stall

Cons: Special Attackers like Alakazam may become too powerful and a reliance on Umbreon might develop

 

2. Suspect Test Alakazam when Chansey is Banned

 

Without Chansey, I feel that Alakazam would prove to be a problem in UU. While this is simply an assumption, I would hope that an immediate suspect test would be made to figure out if this thing is a problem. While Umbreon is a good counter, I would hate to see an Umbreon on 70% of teams just to stop a possible Alakazam threat. There are multiple things that can check Alakazam outright, but the threat of an unknown Hidden Power could foil those plans.

 

Pros: Alakazam has the speed and power to plow through a team without a reliable special wall, making it potentially Uber by the Offensive Characteristic there aren't many options to switch in on Zam, Alakazam will become one hell of a revenge killer

Cons: We have answers in UU for Alakazam, namely Priority attacks, steel-types (if no HP Fire), and dark-types (if no Signal Beam), it's also pretty frail and can't switch in on an attack itself

 

 

3. Players should begin to embrace the offensive approach

 

Underused has an amazing array of offensive threats, from Swellow to Manectric to CM Slowking to SD Zangoose to Flail Kingler, but unfortunately players are just using the same old stall team. Whether this is because of how good Chansey is or whether it's just a comfortable tactic, a very effective play-style is being passed up for another. In my assessment, once players begin to shake up the meta for themselves there could be some real diversity developing. 

 

Players should use their own creativity rather than copying the team that won the previous UU Official.

 

 

Addendum: We're all special snowflakes. Even that cute li'l brown boy Senile. 

 

Chansey is being discussed as we speak. (Please use the Chansey Discussion thread to do so, not this one)

 

You can expect a verdict fairly soon(tm).

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  • 3 weeks later...

There's still a month and a half before we're making any changes to UU as a result of usage in OU.

That is insane. We're leaving two OU pokes in UU for a month and a half just to rigidly adhere to protocol? We haven't had a UU usage update in a loooong time, I think there needs to be more flexibility on your guys end to step in and make common sense tiering decisions like this.
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That is insane. We're leaving two OU pokes in UU for a month and a half just to rigidly adhere to protocol? We haven't had a UU usage update in a loooong time, I think there needs to be more flexibility on your guys end to step in and make common sense tiering decisions like this.

Neither Umbreon nor Porygon2 is problematic in the UU tier at the moment. The increase in usage of those two pokemon is due to the Snorlax and Blissey ban. Instead of saying 2 months (as is policy) I could try and see if we can base it around the amount of tournaments instead. But please don't exaggerate the effect of having two OU pokemon in UU, as they aren't breaking anything in UU. We knew this was going to happen eventually, hence there is a policy for situations like this.

edit: My previous statement of one and a half month is wrong, it's closer to one month.

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Neither Umbreon nor Porygon2 is problematic in the UU tier at the moment. The increase in usage of those two pokemon is due to the Snorlax and Blissey ban. Instead of saying 2 months (as is policy) I could try and see if we can base use an amount of tournaments instead. But please don't exaggerate the effect of having two OU pokemon in UU, as they aren't breaking anything in UU. We knew this was going to happen eventually, hence there is a policy for situations like this.

edit: My previous statement of one and a half month is wrong, it's closer to one month.

It's not about them being broken in the UU metagame, ty. It's the fact that their presence is stunting the growth of the tier - we KNOW they're not staying, since pory and umbreon have taken on very important roles in OU. UU will change quite a bit without two of the stronger sp defensive options, and putting off those inevitable changes for a month and a half is preventing UU from taking its new shape...for what reason? Because the UU council hates making decisions? With the chansey "test," it sure seems that way.

 

A shift to an "amount of tournaments" waiting period rather than a rigid 2 months (which, once again, despite the lax bliss test it's been far more than 2 months) seems like a good start.

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It's not about them being broken in the UU metagame, ty. It's the fact that their presence is stunting the growth of the tier - we KNOW they're not staying, since pory and umbreon have taken on very important roles in OU. UU will change quite a bit without two of the stronger sp defensive options, and putting off those inevitable changes for a month and a half is preventing UU from taking its new shape...for what reason? Because the UU council hates making decisions? With the chansey "test," it sure seems that way.

 

A shift to an "amount of tournaments" waiting period rather than a rigid 2 months (which, once again, despite the lax bliss test it's been far more than 2 months) seems like a good start.

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/54045-tiering-etiquette-guide/

This might be useful to read, it explains how we handle the drop downs from usage and it states a 2 month period.

 

Basically the Tier Council is doing their job, I don't appreciate the implications that we aren't because it is not true. We don't continuously have to tweak with the tier, because that would also be stunting the growth of the tier as well.

The Chansey suspect test ban, is working great. The tier is looking better than before. The way it currently is looking, Chansey will remain banned from UU after the 6 tournament test.

 

So what happens next month, will depend on the usage, sure Porygon2 and Umbreon (and Quagsire) might be moved up to OU, but so be it. Perhaps there will be some pokemon who drop down to UU. The UU meta will adapt to that change when it is time for it to change. I feel like the slow approach is working better than the rushed approach, so I see no reason to change it.

 

With this post I'll be finishing this discussion, your points will be adressed in a Tier Council meeting. From now on I'd like it if this thread was used for it's purpose, to Request a UU Discussion.

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My question is, do we need, after the waiting period, to make porygon2 and umbreon OU because of the raise in usage even when they're not broken in UU? I mean, can't they be UU anyway? Cause I do like the fact than chansey moves to BL cause clearly it was not healthy but if they go we would only have clefable, quagsire and NU ones and that does make me worry

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