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UU Tier Discussion Request Thread


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5 hours ago, gbwead said:

Courtesy of @Senile. Not up to date and not a list, but informational nonetheless.

http://pastebin.com/ei2fCgUi

 

Edit: My bad, I forgot there was nothing about UU there :/

So I guess for those who are curious, I made that pastebin through mostly memory, and combed through the old council PMs for the general dates/times of when events took place. With Amanu + Thinknice dead, that's probably the most accurate list of bans (especially early ones) you're gonna get. I didn't bother with the lower tiers for several reasons:

 

1: I honestly barely remember them.

2: The PMs are like, really long. Scouring them for information is kind of a pain, and for the lower tiers, I basically have to to even remember what the bans were. The old discussion threads are also long gone, so there isn't any other way to gather the information.

3: Due to the NU/UU/OU council separation of whenever that happened, the records for the lower tiers I have don't trace that far back anyway. Of course, on top of the gap in information from when I left ~1 year ago and now as well.

 

with that being said, here's some history on lower tiers anyway. Not really sure if this is actually applicable/relevant in this thread at this moment, since most of the bans are so dated they won't be of much benefit, but if people want to create a masterlist of old bans, then this + the pastebin from up there is a good start.

 

 

 


Pre-Tier Council (in no particular order, since this is going purely off of memory):

- I don't remember who created UU. I know Plague was in charge of it for a while, but I'm like 90% sure he was not the one who created it. Whoever created it, it was pretty much just made by compiling a list of what people thought were "OU" pokemon, and... that was it. There was no usage or anything like that, and I don't know how the discussion for this (if there was much of one?) occurred. Technically, it was considered unofficial, but there were still official tournaments and it was recognized by staff, which eventually resulted in the dispute that caused the formation of the official tier council. 

- There was a vote for if Ludicolo should stay in UU, and I believe there was also one for Espeon. Espeon was controversial because people believed HP Fire Espeon was unstoppable, but nobody but like uMadBrah actually had one due to rarity. I don't remember the results of the votes, but I think Ludicolo got moved up. This was in the "before times", when Playguu ran UU. I don't even remember what the deal with Ludicolo was.

- NU was created when Archinix made an "NU Tournament", where you could only use this ridiculous and unbalanced list of pokemon that "weren't UU". Unsurprisingly, the list wasn't very good, and people were upset. Archinix claimed that he wasn't actually trying to create NU, that was just the tournament name. Didn't really matter, people were still upset, DopestDope + Plague + A ton of others joined in a private discussion and made their own UU list hours afterwards (and by extension, NU), and thus NU was born.

- It was not very good. Archinix's tournament proceeded without much fanfare.

- After this, NU was kind of not good for a long time. 

March 2014: Formation of Tier Council.
UU:
- There was some public discussion on testing Lapras in UU, since it wasn't viable in OU at all and was never really tested. Was not tested.

NU:
- There was a discussion of if Shuckle should be moved up. We were kind of uncertain because lolNU, so we actually had a community vote on this. Ultimately, we decided to suspect it. I'm not 100% sure, but honestly, I'm pretty sure we said "suspect" but completely forgot about it because lolShuckle and it stayed UU for a long time. So, uh, my b.

April 2014: Massive NU Quickbans.
NU:
- So for those who weren't around for OG NU, it was super cancer. Calm Mind wars were stupidly common, with things like CM Girafarig and CM Lunatone. Baton Passing after reaching +6 and dueling for "who crits/freezes/some other RNG" first was, as you can imagine, not entirely competitive.

- Beyond the 2 CM war kings, the tier was pretty centralized. Stantler was stupid hard to deal with, Dewgong was too bulky. At the time, we had a much smaller pokemon pool, and we were starting out with the original, not especially great UU list, which made NU kind of a mess. It was dominated by the few remaining powerhouses left in the tier, that were either skimmed over in the original UU list, or would have been fine if less threats were put on the original list. Unsurprisingly, the meta was pretty centralized.

- People were discussing large, sweeping quickbans for NU to elevate it from "honestly not very fun" to "pretty playable". People seemed down with it, and we quickbanned Lunatone + Girafarig + Stantler + Dewgong.

- Bellossom + Rapidash were quickbanned shortly after. RIP.

June 2014: Bellossom Is Actually Okay Guys
NU:
- Bellossom got moved back down to NU, since the consensus was "Yeah, this probably didn't need to be banned".

Also, as a general thing, this is when Baton Pass was test banned for 1 month. The next month, we test banned only 1 BP user per team, and ultimately decided to keep BP banned forever. RIP in pieces.

July 2014: A Whole Lot Of Nothing

August 2014: A Whole Lot
UU:
- This was the update that added Choice Band, which caused Rhydon to get the boot really fast. He was already pretty suspect beforehand, but CB made in addition to the problems people already had with him earned him the boot.

- Victreebel and Nidoking were quickbanned from UU.

September 2014: Lmao NU Tho
UU:
- Granbull was banned. CB Stronk.

- Nidoking got his ban rescinded, because it was honestly wasn't really needed in the first place.

- Claydol also got moved down to UU.

NU:
- "NU is unfixable and trash." - Senile, circa around this time.

- The trio council system of NU/UU/OU was created around this time, and I kind of stopped paying attention to NU.

- I'm pretty sure it still sucked.
 

 



This is pretty much everything I could get. I could probably get some more information from post September 2014 if I really tried, but it's pretty liable to being full of holes and it's significantly more work. If anyone wants to use this as a base to add to it for a more complete list, go ahead, because I probably won't.

Edited by Senile
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Most honestly, I hope- for now- that Kanga won't return. I really did want to see it's comeback for several reasons which include it's predictability and ability to actually abuse it, but after seeing the usage I think we have a pretty good UU meta currently.

 

6 months ago I voiced my concern about Exeggutor potentially becoming really, really powerful. At that time I was more absorbed by a sunnybeam set, while the real problem- I think- are 2 different sets: Orbed HP fire/ Tox/ Psychic/ Giga drain and Specs with similar moveset and I think Sludge as last move in place of Tox. Exegg always was an offensive juggernaut but it's drastic spike in usage (currently 27%) shows it grew in popularity a lot over a short period of time. It surely is a side effect of Houndoom being moved to OU (and staying there due to usage, sorry Coolio it's not coming back ^^ ) plus it's so good mainly because UU is generally very bulky and quite slow paced, with fastest poke being usually Tenta on most of teams. Each time I teambuild I literally can't find a single poke that can reliably switch into Exegg or do anything against it to stop it. Orb recoil is neglected by Giga Drain, Psychic nukes everything that does not resist it (and even some resisted hits), HP fire gives it great coverage over stuff like Scizor. Only disadvantage for using Exegg right now is Absol's presence which makes Exegg's life a coinflip (is it gonna pursuit me or megahorn?).

Plus, it can run a physical set as well- 95 base atk is nothing to laugh at. @pachima knows :p

 

I'm defo not asking for a discussion thread or anything but I feel like it's a topic we should move unless it's problematic only for me, then disregard my post.

Edited by RysPicz
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4 hours ago, RysPicz said:

Most honestly, I hope- for now- that Kanga won't return. I really did want to see it's comeback for several reasons which include it's predictability and ability to actually abuse it, but after seeing the usage I think we have a pretty good UU meta currently.

 

6 months ago I voiced my concern about Exeggutor potentially becoming really, really powerful. At that time I was more absorbed by a sunnybeam set, while the real problem- I think- are 2 different sets: Orbed HP fire/ Tox/ Psychic/ Giga drain and Specs with similar moveset and I think Sludge as last move in place of Tox. Exegg always was an offensive juggernaut but it's drastic spike in usage (currently 27%) shows it grew in popularity a lot over a short period of time. It surely is a side effect of Houndoom being moved to OU (and staying there due to usage, sorry Coolio it's not coming back ^^ ) plus it's so good mainly because UU is generally very bulky and quite slow paced, with fastest poke being usually Tenta on most of teams. Each time I teambuild I literally can't find a single poke that can reliably switch into Exegg or do anything against it to stop it. Orb recoil is neglected by Giga Drain, Psychic nukes everything that does not resist it (and even some resisted hits), HP fire gives it great coverage over stuff like Scizor. Only disadvantage for using Exegg right now is Absol's presence which makes Exegg's life a coinflip (is it gonna pursuit me or megahorn?).

Plus, it can run a physical set as well- 95 base atk is nothing to laugh at. @pachima knows :p

 

I'm defo not asking for a discussion thread or anything but I feel like it's a topic we should move unless it's problematic only for me, then disregard my post.

Even though the rise of usage of Exeggutor would not have been possible wiht Houndoom around, I think it is more linked with the recent Kangaskhan ban. The very common Orbed HP fire/Toxic/Psychic/Giga Drain set would have never been viable with Kangaskhan around to absorb Toxic and theathen slow Exeggutor directly with Fire Punch. For this reason, I see Exeggutor as a fairly new threath which is why I think it makes more sense to give it some time and see how UU adapts to that threat. Playing stall against Exeggutor means risking Clefable, Cradily, Hypno and Kecleon getting Toxiced, which is never good but it won't be the end of a stall player if it got a reliable heal beller. Offensive options against Exeggutor are quite rare since faster pokemon than Exeggutor get OHKO and slower one 2HKO. Xatu is most likely the best option to deal with Exeggutor offensively, Ninetales isn't bad either and a full HP Jynx can also switch on Exeggutor and chase it as a last resort. Exeggutor should have very few switch opportunities against offense,so the lack of switch ins opportunities against Exeggutor is somewhat fair. Imo, the best way to deal with Exeggutor is Clefable since it can Twave to gain momentum, cure the toxic with Aromatherapy/Heal Bel, recover with Softboiled and threathen it with Ice Beam.

 

3 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

Was the most poor excuse of a reset ever. More like, test snorlax rather than full reset. 

If you didn't realise the repercussions of a reset, perhaps it would have been best to not push as hard as you did for that reset. A full reset would have been a complete waste of time, especially since some people are willing to protect broken pokemons despite how harmful these pokemons can be for the competitive environment of a meta game. 

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Adding to gbweak comment the fact that it's pursuit trapped by swellow, fearrow, sneasel (scarf scizor?) and rk'd by nearly every mon on the tiers.

Finally, non sunny day exeg has a really poor match up against offense cause barely everything can outspeed and has a coverage move that kills it. On the other hand, SD exeg would be better against an offensive team then against a stallish one

 

And it hurtq me so much to say that but I think UU is at its best now without kanga. Maybe it's not thx to it tho but thx to the bans of scept and typhlo

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12 hours ago, Guerinf said:

 it's not thx to it tho but thx to the 

1

You did it man! 10 "t"s in ten words.

Now, back to exeggutor. Even though I highly prefer offensive play, I have to lean towards exeggutor´s brokeness in such tier. After sunny day you cant literally pursuit it(all those get ohkoed)

With kanga and houndoom gone, I think exeggutor exerts too much pressure when teambuilding a slower team. 

While this may promote offense on such wallish tier, I´m afraid it´s been dominant in such a way that this promoted offensive style is pretty much the only one in the tier (In other words, a lack of diversity on offense)

On kanga, it was pretty much a smaller version of snorlax in UU. Despite its not so great specially defensives, one turn rests made up entirely on most of the cases.

Plus, in such wallish tier, no1 wants to watch 400 turn stallerfests with kanga... r-right?

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What do you guys think of Chimecho in UU? Its movepool (Wish, Recover, Disable, Heal Bell, Trick, etc.) has always been amazing, but now with better defensive stats I feel Chimecho would be able to use these moves with more ease and control.

 

It seems to be a decent physical wall, especially considering how threathening Lee and Donphan can be:

Spoiler

 

252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 80-95 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Donphan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 75-89 (41.2 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Bite vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chimecho: 104-126 (57.1 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Chimecho Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sneasel: 128-152 (98.4 - 116.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

 

As a special wall, Chimecho could also have a nice niche imo. On top of being a decent switch against Exeggutor, Vileplume, Tentacruel and others, Chimecho still doesn't get OHKO by a banded Sneasel:

Spoiler

 

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 109-130 (59.8 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Tentacruel Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 46-55 (25.2 - 30.2%) -- 0.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 72-85 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Lapras Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chimecho: 67-81 (36.8 - 44.5%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Sneasel Bite vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chimecho: 152-180 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I would also not be surprised if it manages to pull off some nice cm sweeps/wallbreaks.

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