UU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[Gunthug]

2 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

 

Isn't me bringing up the usage a discussion of tiering? How is that directed attack towards council on its own?

 

Since the beginning I became a council member ThinkNice criticised the old NU Council for doing the decisions we felt right, instead of working as "tier leaders" and that would be looking every decision from the outside - looking the most objective we can without having any bias. Part of this was not banning things we felt strong if others didn't by usage statistics or forum discussion. Later I realized how right he was about everything.

 

Lately my critique was particularly about these two things: lack of taking usage into consideration (Zangoose) and lack of discussion (Kangaskhan, not even a thread). It's just what I believe in about the tiering in this game and it was the standard that was set on and which I considered to be the only thing working.

 

Also are you the sole arbitrer who can be taken seriously and who can't? Do you have any idea how arrogant that sounds?

 

Edit: Like, I always wanted this system to work well and all and now it's apparently allowed to call out someone for "personal bias" just because they have a different opinion about certain way of running things. Also no need to note those multiple times where I voiced out agreeing with you about the reasons for Kanga ban even though it was out of nowhere for no reason or agreeing that not quickbanning Nidoking was the right thing to do from you...

 

No, it's just me being mad and emotional trying to call out everything you do as wrong, you haven't ever done a single questionable action.

Again, go back and reread your first post in this thread about the zangoose decision. You didn't bring up usage until a couple posts later, which you're also wrong about in my opinion but that's just a difference in tiering philosophy. Regardless though, I shouldn't have brought up the personal attack. Can't fight fire with fire. We can take this to Pm's as soon as I get off work 

[OrangeManiac]

1 hour ago, Gunthug said:

Again, go back and reread your first post in this thread about the zangoose decision. You didn't bring up usage until a couple posts later, which you're also wrong about in my opinion but that's just a difference in tiering philosophy. Regardless though, I shouldn't have brought up the personal attack. Can't fight fire with fire. We can take this to Pm's as soon as I get off work 

 

Go read that ban post. I pointed out that the ban post made Zangoose sound like an absolute monster. Even with the cases where everyone and their mother would agree something is banworthy in the final ban post it would be at least mentioned that the counter-arguments have been taken into consideration but you still ended up in the decision you did. There was nothing. You made Zangoose sound like this super saiyan while there has been only 2 weeks of current Haunterless UU. That's what I had a problem with. Could have I said it a bit more mildly? Probably yeah.

 

I have nothing to PM with you. You think it's right to personal attack someone openly and publically just because you thought what I wrote was because of personal dislike/bias? The fact I've nothing but defended you as individuals but disliked some decisions doesn't make this something I enjoy being called out as. I have nothing to add, I will leave this as the last thing I'm going to say about this, I don't want to derail a public thread any further.

Edited November 8, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[Gunthug]

18 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

 

Go read that ban post. I pointed out that the ban post made Zangoose sound like an absolute monster. Even with the cases where everyone on their mother would agree something is banworthy in the final ban post it would be at least mentioned that the counter-arguments have been taken into consideration but you still ended up in the decision you did. There was nothing. You made Zangoose sound like this super saiyan while there has been only 2 weeks of current Haunterless UU. That's what I had a problem with. Could have I said it a bit more mildly? Probably yeah.

 

I have nothing to PM with you. You think it's right to personal attack someone openly and publically just because you thought what I wrote was because of personal dislike/bias? The fact I've nothing but defended you as individuals but disliked some decisions doesn't make this something I enjoy being called out as. I have nothing to add, I will leave this as the last thing I'm going to say about this, I don't want to derail a public thread any further.

No I don't think it's right, which is why I said I shouldn't have done it. You've clearly become very upset over this decision to ban a Pokémon from an online Pokémon game though so when you cool down, we can chat. Or not, I don't really care 

[Thunderprime]

It kinda sucks because now that zangoose is banned it kinda becomes a useless pokemon. Luckily I didnt breed it yet

[Gunthug]

14 minutes ago, Thunderprime said:

It kinda sucks because now that zangoose is banned it kinda becomes a useless pokemon. Luckily I didnt breed it yet

I've seen zangoose put in plenty of work in OU before. that being said, it doesn't matter if it will be used or not in the tier above. If it's banworthy, it's banworthy 

[LifeStyle]

Actually, now that it's OU, people might try it and realize how great of a wall breaker it is.

[Gunthug]

6 minutes ago, LifeStyle said:

Actually, now that it's OU, people might try it and realize how great of a wall breaker it is.

It's BL not OU but you're probably right haha

[Laz]

Typh uu - Kanga ou

ok.

Typh ou - haunter ou - zangoose ou ( either typh stays or we ban everything)

ok.

Nidoking nu ( jk )

ok.

is nido too op? Lets make it even more op

Blastoise uu - absol uu

 

#WearetheTC #Umadyet?

#Gimmicks #Righteousness

#Wisdom #Democracy #Wow

 

 

 

[Gunthug]

35 minutes ago, Lazaro23 said:

Typh uu - Kanga ou

ok.

Typh ou - haunter ou - zangoose ou ( either typh stays or we ban everything)

ok.

Nidoking nu ( jk )

ok.

is nido too op? Lets make it even more op

Blastoise uu - absol uu

 

#WearetheTC #Umadyet?

#Gimmicks #Righteousness

#Wisdom #Democracy #Wow

 

 

 

Most of that stuff was out of our control lol. It's not like we can do anything about blastoise or absol moving up to UU, or haunter and typhlosion moving up to OU (even though we went ahead and banned typh anyways). But hey all the cool kids are bashing TC nowadays so might as well jump on the bandwagon rite 

[Laz]

All aboard the bandwagon!

[OrangeManiac]

Well, now that derailment is behind us I'll guess I'm gonna make this politely and professionally so we're all going to be happy.

 

I am going to ask to get another look at Zangoose's ban decision. (even though we all know this kind of Offensive Ubers decisions are always sorta final unless something actually happens, but hey I'm trying to be constructive here). Yes, my biggest concern was that there not enough evidence to prove this Pokemon to be overpowered in such a short amount of time and the only post community post after Haunter going to OU was Bluebreath arguing to be careful with the ban and his post got nothing but support. If you waited and gave community time to post in Zangoose thread saying that this thing is clear offensive ubers I wouldn't have said a word. But I disgress again...

 

I will argue why Zangoose why in fact is not an offensive Ubers. The most important point: It sweeps part of the metagame but not significant portion of the metagame.

 

I'll use Marowak as an example for this. If everyone used wally teams in OU Marowak would enjoy massive usage due to its ability to break the walls like no other. Marowak was 33 % usage late 2013, I'm not kidding. Literally 3rd most used OU Mon. Shred OU walls into pieces. Now Marowak's usage is non existant. What has this to do with Zangoose? It's notably powerful at doing one thing and that being breaking walls. In a sweepery enviroment Zangoose is just another mon, there's not many sweepers that cannot OHKO it. In addition its speed it's just good, but just another sweeper. It's a Pokemon that you can use to reliably bring a wall down in a defensive oriented team because of it's sufficient coverage and amazing attack. My emphasis, however is on bringing a wall down after a Swords Dance because that 90 speed isn't amazing (unless you run literally 0 Pokemon that reach Zangoose's speed). In addition Zangoose cannot even start wallbreaking switched in, it needs a free turn. It is 2HKOd by most defensive Pokemon in the UU tier because of the solid attack stats UU walls have, and non Choice-Banded Zangoose can OHKO a very limited amount of walls. Normal+Fire+Steel has a very decent coverage but Iron Tail is such a horrible move. 1/4th of the time Zangoose is possibly even useless against the likes of Cradily and Armaldo. 

 

Haunter was the most common revenge killer against Zangoose but there are lots and lots of Pokemon in the UU tier with able to even OHKO Zangoose with Life Orb hit. These Pokemon aren't just used to the same extent. Why? Because the rest of the fast sweepers are hard walled by numerous viable UU walls. So instead of wondering why are so little amount of sweepers viable (psst. because of the high viability of UU walls) you take away the main thing that actually discourages defensive teambuilds. Zangoose doesn't sweep a massive portion of the metagame, just the one it should.

 

Again, if everyone agreed Zangoose sweeps their team too easily regardless of their team I wouldn't have said a word.

Edited November 9, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[Arimanius]

3 hours ago, OrangeManiac said:

I'll use Marowak as an example for this. If everyone used wally teams in OU Marowak would enjoy massive usage due to its ability to break the walls like no other. Marowak was 33 % usage late 2013, I'm not kidding. Literally 3rd most used OU Mon. Shred OU walls into pieces. Now Marowak's usage is non existant. What has this to do with Zangoose? It's notably powerful at doing one thing and that being breaking walls. In a sweepery enviroment Zangoose is just another mon, there's not many sweepers that cannot OHKO it. In addition its speed it's just good, but just another sweeper. It's a Pokemon that you can use to reliably bring a wall down in a defensive oriented team because of it's sufficient coverage and amazing attack. My emphasis, however is on bringing a wall down after a Swords Dance because that 90 speed isn't amazing (unless you run literally 0 Pokemon that reach Zangoose's speed). In addition Zangoose cannot even start wallbreaking switched in, it needs a free turn. It is 2HKOd by most defensive Pokemon in the UU tier because of the solid attack stats UU walls have, and non Choice-Banded Zangoose can OHKO a very limited amount of walls. Normal+Fire+Steel has a very decent coverage but Iron Tail is such a horrible move. 1/4th of the time Zangoose is possibly even useless against the likes of Cradily and Armaldo. 

Do you realize this part is not true? I can build a zangoose ev spread that let him be 3koed by any wall in the tier, outspeeding any important mom and killing the faster ones with qa after a sd? So like guarantee a sd and sweep? People realize this that's why you have to run a ghost (not a reliable answer since you still have things like absol and scizor that can pursuit trap, unless you use sableye all the fucking time) or have scizor or amaldo FULL HEALTH to be able to stop the sweep. You can't compare marowak to zangoose not in this universe or any parallel universe you might think of. Choice Band set is a lot inferior than the SD set but the SD set is the one that makes it broken, it has always been broken for me since the implementation of life orb and the boost to items like silk scarf, even with haunter in the tier but now that it's not in the tier the thing is even worse

[OrangeManiac]

38 minutes ago, Arimanius said:

Do you realize this part is not true? I can build a zangoose ev spread that let him be 3koed by any wall in the tier, outspeeding any important mom and killing the faster ones with qa after a sd? So like guarantee a sd and sweep? People realize this that's why you have to run a ghost (not a reliable answer since you still have things like absol and scizor that can pursuit trap, unless you use sableye all the fucking time) or have scizor or amaldo FULL HEALTH to be able to stop the sweep. You can't compare marowak to zangoose not in this universe or any parallel universe you might think of. Choice Band set is a lot inferior than the SD set but the SD set is the one that makes it broken, it has always been broken for me since the implementation of life orb and the boost to items like silk scarf, even with haunter in the tier but now that it's not in the tier the thing is even worse

SD + double Normal set allows for only one coverage move which at worst can let Zangoose get countered, however you can't know this until you've seen enough moves so for that I'll say fair enough. Talking about running Goose 252 HP 252 Attack sure sounds interesting and I could see why someone would do it now, however that brings me back to my argument that why is speed so unviable in UU now because speedless Zangoose reaches only 110 speed stat and if doesn't bring it any problems it doesn't seem very speed supporting metagame.

 

Like Blue brought up that MisD can increase in usage and would be really likely that would as people like running Ghosts due to their ability to spinblock. If MisD isn't as nice against Zangoose as Haunter was, it's not far. Bulk is better but it can't outspeed.

 

I didn't compare Marowak with Zangoose in any other way but the fact Marowak felt like a powerful Pokemon at a time where you knew what defensive threats you were gonna face and Wak was the only one able to slice through them all, just like Zangoose in current UU. Now that OU tier is sweepery enough Wak doesn't get any love, while before it felt like a monster. If Zangoose had to face fast teams instead of the slow it might face a whole new sets of problems.

[Arimanius]

14 minutes ago, OrangeManiac said:

SD + double Normal set allows for only one coverage move which at worst can let Zangoose get countered, however you can't know this until you've seen enough moves so for that I'll say fair enough. Talking about running Goose 252 HP 252 Attack sure sounds interesting and I could see why someone would do it now, however that brings me back to my argument that why is speed so unviable in UU now because speedless Zangoose reaches only 110 speed stat and if doesn't bring it any problems it doesn't seem very speed supporting metagame.

 

Like Blue brought up that MisD can increase in usage and would be really likely that would as people like running Ghosts due to their ability to spinblock. If MisD isn't as nice against Zangoose as Haunter was, it's not far. Bulk is better but it can't outspeed.

 

I didn't compare Marowak with Zangoose in any other way but the fact Marowak felt like a powerful Pokemon at a time where you knew what defensive threats you were gonna face and Wak was the only one able to slice through them all, just like Zangoose in current UU. Now that OU tier is sweepery enough Wak doesn't get any love, while before it felt like a monster. If Zangoose had to face fast teams instead of the slow it might face a whole new sets of problems.

I agree with you but like how can we give uu faster offensive mons that could deal with zangoose without dying to a +2 quick attack? Dodrio we tried and it was broken asf it could 2ko any wall bar shuckle so u had to depend on prediction all the time, sceptile was banned under offensive characteristics for his coverage and speed, you had to have altaria + scizor in the team to be able to stop it predicting the hidden power it had and typhlosion, well typhlosion was just insanely powerful. I mean if we could bring more pokemons to the uu tier without affecting it too much to be able to make zangoose and other moms not broken we would have done it but it's difficult so the only choice we had till now to deal with it was to run an hyper offensive team that could never let zangoose set up but that makes stall unviable then since stall facing a zangoose + a good trapper could always win

[OrangeManiac]

19 minutes ago, Arimanius said:

I agree with you but like how can we give uu faster offensive mons that could deal with zangoose without dying to a +2 quick attack? Dodrio we tried and it was broken asf it could 2ko any wall bar shuckle so u had to depend on prediction all the time, sceptile was banned under offensive characteristics for his coverage and speed, you had to have altaria + scizor in the team to be able to stop it predicting the hidden power it had and typhlosion, well typhlosion was just insanely powerful. I mean if we could bring more pokemons to the uu tier without affecting it too much to be able to make zangoose and other moms not broken we would have done it but it's difficult so the only choice we had till now to deal with it was to run an hyper offensive team that could never let zangoose set up but that makes stall unviable then since stall facing a zangoose + a good trapper could always win

Yeah, that's where I agree with that fast mons might get too surprised by that +2 QA and late game and with Silk Scarf that does sound powerful table cleaner because it can sweep damaged sweepers off (but then, lacks coverage). For that I'll admit it's like I argued about NU Victreebel, that it sucks from the player's perspective getting swept by such a Pokemon while doing inherently nothing wrong decisionwise, so after such incident Zangoose would feel broken. It just happens sometimes though with lots of powerful sweepers, if you think it happens too often with Zangoose then fair enough.

Edited November 9, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[Guerinf]

1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said:

Yeah, that's where I agree with that fast mons might get too surprised by that +2 QA and late game and with Silk Scarf that does sound powerful table cleaner because it can sweep damaged sweepers off (but then, lacks coverage). For that I'll admit it's like I argued about NU Victreebel, that it sucks from the player's perspective getting swept by such a Pokemon while doing inherently nothing wrong decisionwise, so after such incident Zangoose would feel broken. It just happens sometimes though with lots of powerful sweepers, if you think it happens too often with Zangoose then fair enough.

 

1 hour ago, Arimanius said:

I agree with you but like how can we give uu faster offensive mons that could deal with zangoose without dying to a +2 quick attack? Dodrio we tried and it was broken asf it could 2ko any wall bar shuckle so u had to depend on prediction all the time, sceptile was banned under offensive characteristics for his coverage and speed, you had to have altaria + scizor in the team to be able to stop it predicting the hidden power it had and typhlosion, well typhlosion was just insanely powerful. I mean if we could bring more pokemons to the uu tier without affecting it too much to be able to make zangoose and other moms not broken we would have done it but it's difficult so the only choice we had till now to deal with it was to run an hyper offensive team that could never let zangoose set up but that makes stall unviable then since stall facing a zangoose + a good trapper could always win

I also think that this ability to come on the field to rk, set up a SD and sweep is clearly OP and banworthy. 

 

Mostly, your possibilities to rk a +2 QA zangoose are : scarf mach punch lee, scarf scizor, cb QA scizor, QA Swellow, and not many more viable things. Which is a very low amount of solution.

 

Without teampreview, you can just get swept by this kind of set up sweeper late game because you failed betting the correct sack 5 turns ago. Which can't really be considered as a competitive quality. Maybe if we had this preview tool zang wouldn't be banworthy but atm, it can clearly change the outcome of a game without specific support and low skills involved.

Edited November 9, 2016 by Guerinf

[Frag]

I really like TC decisions so far, all the bans are at point, uu still shit tho.

[Erayne]

Lol they just ban anything that can be a problem for stall teams

[RysPicz]

15 minutes ago, Erayne said:

Lol they just ban anything that can be a problem for stall teams

I faced a stall team in semis of today's UU. Guess what happened with that team?

[Viking]

5 minutes ago, RysPicz said:

I faced a stall team in semis of today's UU. Guess what happened with that team?

got fucked by AERIIIIIIIIIIIIIS

[Gunthug]

Seriously, can we dispel the notion that offense is no longer viable without sceptile/typh/goose? Doesn't look like forfi is having much trouble succeeding with offensive teambuilds

[BlackJovi]

1 minute ago, Gunthug said:

Seriously, can we dispel the notion that offense is no longer viable without sceptile/typh/goose? Doesn't look like forfi is having much trouble succeeding with offensive teambuilds

No idea why people do that 

[pachima]

TC is like: You get a ban, you get a ban. Everyone gets a ban!

[Erayne]

4 hours ago, RysPicz said:

I faced a stall team in semis of today's UU. Guess what happened with that team?

Was a bad stall team 

[NikhilR]

Personally I find offense to be a lot more viable without having typhlo+goose to revenge kill almost any offensive mon. Stall's viability is always going to dependent on the playerbase's mentality because it's built on walling standard sets on certain pokemon, so players are gonna have to come up with new sets or even new pokes to cause problems to stall.