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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread


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considering a lax ban to ubers 

 

(immunity curselax switch)  252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 188 HP / 216+ SpD Snorlax: 118-141 (45.5 - 54.4%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chansey: 162-192 (45.3 - 53.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Milotic: 69-82 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

 

Ik eruption didnt has always max power, need rapid spin suport, etc, but just think we didnt had anything with good stats both in spatk/speed and with acess to eruption/water spout so is something to consider, typlhosion is also a good late game cleaner with choice scarf so i think it would be a good revenge killer/ late game sweeper at least BL1 IMO

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To forfi, because new page and don't wanna go back:

 

Gyara still isn't a viable switch in to it, because if you're running bulky gyara, you end up not being strong enough to hit it back for it to matter, and you're just setup bait asking for more sword dances(I'm talking about sdance set only fyi). And if you do by some chance have a regular DD gyara, you still are only near 2-3ko on a uninvested Fera

Too many calcs seeing how sdance can run both LO and lefties, and then there's gyara with the bulk and attack and etc, so just this;

+1 220 Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 221-260 (66.7 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 220 Atk Feraligatr Return vs. 100 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 170-200 (47.7 - 56.1%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 107-126 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- 48.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

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1 minute ago, Spaintakula said:

To forfi, because new page and don't wanna go back:

 

Gyara still isn't a viable switch in to it, because if you're running bulky gyara, you end up not being strong enough to hit it back for it to matter, and you're just setup bait asking for more sword dances(I'm talking about sdance set only fyi). And if you do by some chance have a regular DD gyara, you still are only near 2-3ko on a uninvested Fera

Too many calcs seeing how sdance can run both LO and lefties, and then there's gyara with the bulk and attack and etc, so just this;

+1 220 Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 221-260 (66.7 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 220 Atk Feraligatr Return vs. 100 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 170-200 (47.7 - 56.1%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 107-126 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- 48.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I don't know what kind of bulky gyara are you talking about, but the ones I've seen (Twave/ DEdge) would surely take care of it without any problem

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tHhZQ63.png

 

They said it was impossible to breed competitive Metagross.

Now look at these few examples:

 


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They said they had various Pokemon that easily defeated

Pokemon Effective:

 

Ground Type:


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Ghost Type:


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Fire Type:


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Dark Type:


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Now tell me, after these images, the Metagross still deserves to be Overused?

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Nah probably not. Metagross isn't really individually banworthy, but Ou suffers from a group of very strong attackers that all require pretty specific Pokemon to take on. In addition to metagross, blaziken has very limited answers. Heracross has even less switch ins (band or sd sets can beat weezing/arcanine). There are other Pokemon like snorlax and gyarados which also obviously contribute to the centralization in OU (kek at people who run cloyster+skarmory on the same team). 

 

This problem "plagues" a lot of meta games as a few Pokemon just limit the meta severely, but those Pokemon aren't necessarily banworthy on their own. ORAS UU has this issue but they're attempting to solve it as they banned salamence which limited offense+balance a ton. I'm still curious to see if they ban something else like hydreigon since that was discussed a lot as well.

 

This post isn't really directed at the guy who thinks metagross is banworthy since it can Ohko murkrow, but moreso my general thoughts about the OU meta as a whole.

 

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20 minutes ago, LordStifler said:

That's not fair, other Pseudo-Legendary (Dragonite and Tyranitar) are Ubers, why Metagross is not it?

 

Because metagross isn't nearly as good in our game as the other two. Mence ttar and drago can all sweep fairly easily with a single dragon dance. They can run mixed sets much more effectively and are all around more diverse than metagross. 

 

So basically the term pseudo legend in itself isn't bannable, sorry 

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9 minutes ago, LordStifler said:

 

 # New Post

 

tHhZQ63.png

 

They said it was impossible to breed competitive Metagross.

 

Now look at these few examples:

 

 

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+/- 50 forms to fail versus a F*****' Uber Metagross

 

Uber:

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Over Used:

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Now tell me, after these images, the Metagross still deserves to be Overused?

Quick question - what is mega camerupt's BST in gen 6? And regigigas?

 

What tier(s) are they in?

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yeah metagross is pretty OP, it even beats pokes that aren't usable in the OU tier. it also happens to use all 4 attacks all at once so it doesn't get locked into anything, even at +1. amazing right? i can't believe i can't use my murkrow or mightyena in ou because of this monster. it needs a ban asap, the overpriced 8m metagross is too much to handle.

 

sorry @Goldeneyes, but mightyena won't work.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/11/2016 at 6:16 AM, BlackJovi said:

Can we ban swagger

Complex ban Swagger from all tiers. It is an uncompetitive move that simply relies on RNG to gain momentum. There is almost no risk associated with using it when you're hidden behind a Substitute and can swap freely to very powerful physical walls if you find yourself caught in front of an attack-boosted "no longer confused" pokemon. Most players have been pairing SwagJolt with Haze Milotic or Weezing, which can remove any boosts and Recover or Pain Split away the damage, respectively. 

 

This strategy doesn't promote competition, what it does promote is RNG based win strategies which aren't healthy. It's akin to spamming Ice Beam late-game in order to catch a lucky freeze. 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Complex ban Swagger from all tiers. It is an uncompetitive move that simply relies on RNG to gain momentum. There is almost no risk associated with using it when you're hidden behind a Substitute and can swap freely to very powerful physical walls if you find yourself caught in front of an attack-boosted "no longer confused" pokemon. Most players have been pairing SwagJolt with Haze Milotic or Weezing, which can remove any boosts and Recover or Pain Split away the damage, respectively. 

 

This strategy doesn't promote competition, what it does promote is RNG based win strategies which aren't healthy. It's akin to spamming Ice Beam late-game in order to catch a lucky freeze. 

 

 

i dont necessarily disagree with your point, however body slam, thunder wave, spore/sub/seed breloom, protect + perish, and many many other strategy's exist in pokemmo that are rng dependent. i once won a uu tournament with a twave + cute charm clefable by rng'ing my opponents. how is this different? how is it more uncompetitive? why should this and only this be banned?

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19 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

i dont necessarily disagree with your point, however body slam, thunder wave, spore/sub/seed breloom, protect + perish, and many many other strategy's exist in pokemmo that are rng dependent. i once won a uu tournament with a twave + cute charm clefable by rng'ing my opponents. how is this different? how is it more uncompetitive? why should this and only this be banned?

So you think spamming Body Slam, a damage inflicting STAB move on most users, is an RNG strategy similar to Swagger? You also think that SubSeed is an RNG strat? Or what about Protect + Perish Song which really doesn't rely on RNG at all?

 

Thunder Wave + Cute Charm aside, your comparisons were absolutely terrible. 

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30 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

So you think spamming Body Slam, a damage inflicting STAB move on most users, is an RNG strategy similar to Swagger? You also think that SubSeed is an RNG strat? Or what about Protect + Perish Song which really doesn't rely on RNG at all?

 

Thunder Wave + Cute Charm aside, your comparisons were absolutely terrible. 

protect + perish using protect more then once. rest is hard to argue. my point before you attacked it instead of answering the question is pokemmo has lots of rng. why is this rng special. what makes this so special that it goes above and beyond all other rng and make it ban worthy? this question needs a answer. 

 

also side note, i dont disagree with you at all. it's rng and it's annoying and maybe even uncompetitive. but the question must be answered.

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48 minutes ago, fredrichnietze said:

protect + perish using protect more then once. rest is hard to argue. my point before you attacked it instead of answering the question is pokemmo has lots of rng. why is this rng special. what makes this so special that it goes above and beyond all other rng and make it ban worthy? this question needs a answer. 

 

also side note, i dont disagree with you at all. it's rng and it's annoying and maybe even uncompetitive. but the question must be answered.

To tackle the first argument, Perish Song is typically used on slower threats such as walls in order to cripple the opponent's defenses. Considering this, the combination of a trapping move, Perish Song, Protect, and Substitute should be viable enough to successfully perform this tactic. No RNG unless you place your Perish Song user in a bad scenario where it could be one shot and outsped by the pokemon it's attempting to trap. 

 

Second, Swagger, like Confuse Ray, relies entirely on RNG. It is made to abuse a simple mechanic which states that when confused, a pokemon will inflict damage upon itself 50% of the time with 40 base power. Other status moves serve a far greater purpose that Confusion. Paralysis lowers your opponent's speed which is beneficial throughout the match. The fact that you become fully paralyzed 25% of the time while paralyzed is simply an added benefit and not the primary reason you paralyze your opponent (the speed drop is). Toxic/Poison inflicting moves hardly involve RNG unless you happen to get Toxic/Poison with less than 6% health remaining. Sleep would be the most controversial considering you are out for 1-3 moves, but even then it's been nerfed so heavily that you really can outplay a team with a sleep inflicting moves. Cute Charm Clefable relies on the hope that you have the appropriate gender to even utilize this effect and even then there is only a 30% chance that it will activate. After that you have a 50% chance of attacking the pokemon you are infatuated with. This tactic though is heavily limited considering it is only found on three pokemon, one of which "might be" viable (Clefable). 

 

Now the difference between Swagger and Confuse Ray is the fact that Swagger boosts your opponent's Attack stat, increasing the damage output by the 50% roll on being confused and attacking yourself. Combining Swagger with Substitute can severely limit slower physical threats, especially on a pokemon that has a huge offensive presence... in comes Jolteon. Jolteon is a glass cannon in the OU metagame that relies on a very powerful STAB attack and a coverage move in HP that can one shot most counters (Swampert, Flygon, Rhydon). It is also faster than nearly every OU pokemon and thus can freely substitute on a forced switch thus leaving the opportunity to Swagger whatever helpless counter you might have. These counters include Snorlax, Chansey, Gardevoir, and Porygon2. Once Swaggered, the Jolteon can continue to Substitute gambling on that 50% chance you'll hit yourself. Once you strike yourself once, the Jolteon is able to keep its Substitute and Swagger you again once the confusion wears off. This rinsed and repeated throughout a match. 

 

There is little risk in use outside of a 10% chance of missing and if you are balsy enough to spam Swagger when you aren't behind a Substitute. If you combine Swagger + Substitute + Protect, a player can actually keep a Substitute if it can Protect on the turn confusion wears off. 

 

There is no counter to Swagger either, so it's nearly fault free. All pokemon are susceptible to Confusion, aside from those with Own Tempo. Considering this though, the only viable Own Tempo user in the OU metagame is Slowbro, unfortunately Slowbro is extremely weak to Thunderbolt...

 

tl;dr Swagger is a strategy unlike any other method in that it relies completely on RNG to defeat the opponent. Given that it has 90% accuracy (high), strikes all pokemon (aside from Own Tempo), and boosts attack power along with confusing the foe, I would propose a ban on the move Swagger from all tiers. 

 

 

The most important fact to note though is that late game it becomes even more toxic when a player can use this RNG strategy to win a match through repetitive coin flips. Is this healthy for the tier? Is this even a competitive strategy that offers benefit to the tier, or is it completely broken and removes the skill we have been working so hard to uphold in this RNG heavy game?

 

EDIT: @gbwead @BurntZebra @Gunthug @Arimanius @Artemiseta @Tyrone

 

EDIT2: The reason for banning it in all tiers is because it can be used in a similar method by other fast pokes. For example, Crobat and Swellow can use this move in UU and Persian and Ninjask can use this move in NU, with the same negative affect as Jolteon in OU. 

Edited by DoubleJ
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2 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

It's not a complex ban, you can flat ban a move. It would only be a complex ban if, say, swagger was banned on Jolteon alone.

 

Semantics aside, I think we're looking into it

Yea, I got a little ahead of myself thinking between banning it from the entire game vs Jolteon alone. I didn't realize until later that Swagger is accessible by damn near everything, including Aerodactyl, so basically any fast pokemon has access to it and can abuse it throughout the game. The only thing that sets it apart on Jolteon is that STAB Thunderbolt with the appropriate Hidden Power is effective against almost everything except Chansey, Porygon2, and Gardevoir so long as Trace is active. 

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In NU, Swagger looks pretty bad because Grumpig and Likitung are in the tier.

In UU, Swagger isn't that great because of the prominence of multistirke moves (Rock Blast/Bullet Seed/Icicle Spears). The pokemons that could actually use swagger are rarely willing to drop a coverage move for Swagger. Manectric is an excelllent example of that. 

In OU, beside Jolteon, what truly benefits from the Swagger strategy? It seems like the lack of coverage moves of Jolteon is the big reason why Swagger is worth running on that pokemon. Pin Missile Heracross when?

 

When comparing Confuse Ray to Swagger, something extremely important that haven't been mentionned yet is that Swagger has 90% accuracy unlike Confuse Ray. This implies that when a pokemon uses swagger the opposing pokemon has 45% chance of hitting himself instead of 50%. 45% is still an extremly uncompetitive ratio imo. Howver, using Swagger is not as easy as it may seem since only a pokemon behind a Substitute can truly benefit from using Swagger. Belly Drum is also quite broken if the pokemon hides behind a Substitute, but that doesn't make Belly Drum or Substitute banworthy imo. What sets Swagger apart is nothing more than the niche of necessity (lack of moves) of Jolteon in OU. Swagger might be banworthy but only on Jolteon imo.

 

When I was pushing for the Body Slam complex ban on Snorlax, a lot of people told me that Snorlax makes Body Slam op. Does Jolteon make Swagger op? Does Substitute make Swagger op?  Is Swagger truly the problem here?

I think (correct me if I am wrong), on Smogon, Baton Pass is allowed only if the pokemon that boosts itself can only boosts itself in one stat. If Swagger was deemed banworthy, would it make sense to allow Swagger only if it is not used in conjonction with Substitute?

 

Edit: Now that I think about it more, I remember Schuchty losing in UU against MasterRochi. MasterRochi led with swagger + explosion electrode followed by a substitute + swagger Primeape. I was laughing histerically, but to be fair there was nothing more uncompetitive. Btw you bad Schuchty.

Edited by gbwead
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