OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[DoctorPBC]

Cant believe im about to respond to these RNG plebs

1. PokeMMO metagame is not the same as other metagames; making blind assumptions based on other metagames is not really relevant when it comes to PokeMMO.

 

2. Specs P2 or Choice Clops are quite unviable right now imo. I do hope they become more viable in the future though.

 

3. What is Jolteon gaining by switching on a Trick user exactly? Jolteon either loses his leftovers or takes severe damage without the ability to punish the opponent. P2/Chansey really don’t care about the dmg of a spec Jolteon.

 

4. Protect/Substitute/Taunt. Being forced to introduce these moves in certain movesets can be quite centralising. Wobbuffet wouldn’t be banned if everyone was playing Taunt/Substitute.

 

5. The problem with Pursuit Trap is that pursuit trappers are quite vulnerable to Trick users. Houndoom/Aerodactyl/Slaking/Tauros/Metagross/Heracross all get OHKO or 2HKO by Starmie. Switching Pursuit trappers on a Trick user doesn’t accomplish much anyways. Even if the Pursuit Trapper predicts the Trick, Starmie remains a serious threat that hasn’t been managed yet :

• If Aerodactyl switches on Trick, he loses CB which means he no longer has the power to OHKO Starmie. On the other hand, Starmie can OHKO aerodactyl with Surf.
• If Heracross switches on Trick, he ends up in a 50/50 decision. If Starmie stays and Heracross uses Pursuit, Heracross dies the next turn. If Heracross does Megamisshorn, Starmie could simply switch. In all cases, Heracross Pursuit doesn’t kill Starmie even if Starmie switches.             252+ Atk Heracross Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 56-68 (41.4 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
• Tauros, without CB, loses to Starmie.
• Houndoom just dies to surf whatever the scenario.
• Metagross doesn’t OHKO Starmie with Thunderpunch. With significant bulk investment, Metagross could potentially secure a kill against Starmie with a Tpunch/Pursuit combination since Starmie would not be able to 2HKO.
• Slaking is in a 50/50 situation where the wrong choice means its death.

 

6. All playstyles should be viable in a respectable tier, not only hyper offense. 

 

7. Spikes can help scout, but scouting without a proper way to counter trick is useless. Even if I suspect/know that I am facing a trick user, I won’t be able to do anything since there are hardly any switch ins. Some Trick users (mostly in UU/NU) are also immune to Spikes.

 

8. Trapinch only counters some walls. There are plenty of other viable walls that people can use if they fear Trapinch. 

 

Edit: Btw describing XPLOZ as if he was a heavy stall player is utterly ridiculous. 

Edit2: I'm not saying Trick should be banned, but I think a discussion about Trick is needed.

 

1: its a metagame nonetheless that draws similarities to several other metas, at no point has trick been unbeatable or OP and its not now

2: pls go start watching tournaments and competiting, I have seen both several times used effectively... I wouldnt bring them up if I hadnt

3: what is Jolteon gaining... r u kidding me... it gains a 1.5x boost to its special attack kek

4: Protect is used on chansey 9 times out of 10 already, protect is used on swampert, ive seen protect skarmory's and ludicolos... and wobb would still be banned

5: so your telling me that you dont know how to predict... incase you havent noticed succesful pokemon players know how to predict, unsuccesful ones lose alot

6: all playstyles are viable, its just certain playstyles counter other styles, for once everyones beloved stall actually has some viable counter play outside of trapinch

7: I listed 2, heres some more. Specs gardevoir, any sticky hold pokemon, anything that benefits from a choice item

 

I didnt describe xplo as a heavy wall player at all, I described the one battle we have had on ladder... please dont take this is a personal attack on him, I dont like any of you and that wont change.. but im above trading petty blows because of a battling style

Maybe the most subjective/irrelevant stuff I have read for a while...

 

 

I'm happy to learn that you don't like stall and that it's not a leggit playstyle for you.

 

 

So it isn't banworthy because it is allowed in other metas... So what ? Should we unban Bliss/Snorlax/Dugtrio/Ttar/Nite right now ???

 

 

Telling me that but I almost popularized Venusaur Growth which is actually a great wallbreaker that everyone plays at the moment.

 

 

If only you brought me a list of relevant counters, but wtf is that ?

• Offensiv spec P2 : 2HKO by Surf/Psychic of a timid Choice Spec Starmie
• Choice clops : lel. So you give a Choice to Clops and it gives back you another one. > Clops isn't viable anymore and you can manage to give the 2nd Choice to another pokemon. Not to mention that Duclops specially defensive takes a big 45.5 - 55.1% from Starmie Modest ChoiceSpec Surf.
• Any jolt ever : Can you explain me how exactly please ? Offensive jolts : 252+ SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jolteon: 117-138 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Defensive jolts : 2HKO too + can't even support the team with a Choice Spec.
• Protect + sub > refer to gbwead
• Taunt. Tell me with what you're gonna use taunt against a Choice Spec Starmie ? Something faster and that isn't 2HKO'd/1HKO'd.
• Pursuit traps : As it was easy as fuck to trap a Starmie Choice Spec.... 1 - If Starmie doesn't trick and just attacks, you're dead. 2 - If he uses trick you'll have difficulties to trap it and as gbwead said, it will be either a 50/50 decision or an advantage for Starmie.
• Hyper offense team : Am I forced to play hyper offense ? Centralization ?
• Spikes : You mean Cacturne ? Cause spikes, wtf ? Ololol my Skarm is gonna use Spikes against a Starmie and either he will Trick/Rapid spin and my Skarm will become shit or he will just attack me and I will lose. I am happy & strong :D (PS : Cacturne is actually a counter of all Starmies (except Icebeam which is pretty rare), but not of Trick : Alakazam will just Trick + Signal beam his face)

This is like you are forgetting that Starmie has a huge offensive presence after all, especially with a Choice Specs in his hands. (yh Starmie has hands). Basically every counter you mentionned is wrekd if Starmie decides to attack. Offense is weak to Offense, and Starmie is fast/powerful so you can't just bring offense against it (Yolooooooooo).

 

 

That is not true. I do not support a ban of Trapinch and I already talked about it on other threads : Even if it might be the best solution against something like Chansey, you actually take a risk by using Trapinch. It's slow, can trap only very specific things, will trap mainly 1 thing and then die...

 

An other exemple : Ursaring breaks walls like a king but shouldn't be banned of course. So my logic isn't that one.

 

 

Edit : Your battle was won against Frags with this huge amount of RNG you got, but for some reasons you decided to lose it. (just for the record as you're mentionning it)

 

1: never said I dont like stall, I dont play it but I didnt criticise it either

2: never said it wasnt banworthy either (its not, but thats besides the point). And yes a few of that list should be unbanned (good thing its being discussed hey!)

3: not everyone plays growth venu, I was one of the first to use adamant CB gyara, whats your point

4: as I said above, ive seen choice clops and and choice specs porygon... wouldnt bring them up if I hadnt... wont respond to this again but read above.

5: #prediction, same could be said for ursaring. If I predict wrong something dies or it sets up a swords dance... just because it does that doesnt make it OP

6: your logic for both is the same, you are QQing about starmie being able to break walls... well ursaring breaks walls too and can ohko stuff if you predict wrong... ban both because same logic or nah

7: pls go watch the replay, because I fail to recall any monumental hax from either side... it was a well played battle that went down to 1v1 and ended with a 10% chansey for him

Edited April 27, 2016 by DoctorPBC

[NikhilR]

4: as I said above, ive seen choice clops and and choice specs porygon... wouldnt bring them up if I hadnt... wont respond to this again but read above.

 

 

 

Do you know who used choice clops and specs p2, or do you know a match where it happened? Cuz then we can all watch it and determine its viability.

Edited April 27, 2016 by NikhilR

[gbwead]

2: pls go start watching tournaments and competiting, I have seen both several times used effectively... I wouldnt bring them up if I hadnt

I am genuinely curious. Please let me know what replays I need watching.

 

3: what is Jolteon gaining... r u kidding me... it gains a 1.5x boost to its special attack kek

1.5 boost is usually meaningless with Chansey and Porygon2 high usage. Losing leftovers or losing 80% health on Jolteon is rarely worth the possibility of getting locked on a boosted move.

 

4: Protect is used on chansey 9 times out of 10 already, protect is used on swampert, ive seen protect skarmory's and ludicolos... and wobb would still be banned

Fair enough I guess, but it doesn't change the fact that it limits the moveset of a lot of pokemons.

 

5: so your telling me that you dont know how to predict... incase you havent noticed succesful pokemon players know how to predict, unsuccesful ones lose alot

You are missing the point entirely. If you need to predict to switch on Starmie Trick, that implies that Pursuit Trappers are checks and not counters. If after a good predict these checks manage to switch on Starmie, they still have to predict again. This implies that they are unreliable checks.

 

7: I listed 2, heres some more. Specs gardevoir, any sticky hold pokemon, anything that benefits from a choice item

The only Sticky Hold pokemon in PokeMMO is Muk. If you see Muk as a viable and reliable OU pokemon, I pity you. 

[DoctorPBC]

I am genuinely curious. Please let me know what replays I need watching.

 

1.5 boost is usually meaningless with Chansey and Porygon2 high usage. Losing leftovers or losing 80% health on Jolteon is rarely worth the possibility of getting locked on a boosted move.

 

Fair enough I guess, but it doesn't change the fact that it limits the moveset of a lot of pokemons.

 

You are missing the point entirely. If you need to predict to switch on Starmie Trick, that implies that Pursuit Trappers are checks and not counters. If after a good predict these checks manage to switch on Starmie, they still have to predict again. This implies that they are unreliable checks.

 

The only Sticky Hold pokemon in PokeMMO is Muk. If you see Muk as a viable and reliable OU pokemon, I pity you. 

 

thats besides the point, Jolteon isnt 100% bait after being tricked specs tho, it still has a use.. being less useful is the whole point of trick, if it did nothing it wouldnt be used.

 

you dont need to, its an option if you failed to pack a proper check. ive already listed a few checks with dusclops, gardevoir and porygon2, more could include mons like ludicolo, venusaur, (snorlax if the common consensus of it not being OP is actually followed through on) etc

 

 

Ill concede on sticky hold, Muk isnt viable... but Swalot (even though it is immensely less viable) also gets sticky hold

 

 

Do you know who used choice clops and specs p2, or do you know a match where it happened? Cuz then we can all watch it and determine its viability.

 

Im at work but ill try and find the replay later, it was from one of the OUs on the weekend. The clops tricked as soon as it came in and nabbed a Chansey

[XPLOZ]

Cant believe im about to respond to these complete and utter RNG plebs

 

1: its a metagame nonetheless that draws similarities to several other metas, at no point has trick been unbeatable or OP and its not now

2: pls go start watching tournaments and competiting, I have seen both several times used effectively... I wouldnt bring them up if I hadnt

3: what is Jolteon gaining... r u kidding me... it gains a 1.5x boost to its special attack kek

4: Protect is used on chansey 9 times out of 10 already, protect is used on swampert, ive seen protect skarmory's and ludicolos... and wobb would still be banned

5: so your telling me that you dont know how to predict... incase you havent noticed succesful pokemon players know how to predict, unsuccesful ones lose alot

6: all playstyles are viable, its just certain playstyles counter other styles, for once everyones beloved stall actually has some viable counter play outside of trapinch

7: I listed 2, heres some more. Specs gardevoir, any sticky hold pokemon, anything that benefits from a choice item

 

I didnt describe xplo as a heavy wall player at all, I described the one battle we have had on ladder... please dont take this is a personal attack on him, I dont like any of you and that wont change.. but im above trading petty blows because of a battling style

 

1: never said I dont like stall, I dont play it but I didnt criticise it either

2: never said it wasnt banworthy either (its not, but thats besides the point). And yes a few of that list should be unbanned (good thing its being discussed hey!)

3: not everyone plays growth venu, I was one of the first to use adamant CB gyara, whats your point

4: as I said above, ive seen choice clops and and choice specs porygon... wouldnt bring them up if I hadnt... wont respond to this again but read above.

5: #prediction, same could be said for ursaring. If I predict wrong something dies or it sets up a swords dance... just because it does that doesnt make it OP

6: your logic for both is the same, you are QQing about starmie being able to break walls... well ursaring breaks walls too and can ohko stuff if you predict wrong... ban both because same logic or nah

7: pls go watch the replay, because I fail to recall any monumental hax from either side... it was a well played battle that went down to 1v1 and ended with a 10% chansey for him

 

Not sure about the purpose of calling us plebs or saying to gbwead to start to watch tourneys/to compete. What a funny comment. Do I have to remind you that in this OU leaderboard tournament we were 4 members of our team while you were alone ? Do I have to remind you that gbwead already won tournaments (without speaking about Doubles & other RNG based shit ofc) and is maybe one of the most creative players of this game ? Your comments are subjective, and using personal attacks for no reasons shows it...

 

That was my first point but this is off topic so let's come back to the interesting points :

 

First part :

1 : Since we have Ubers that are not Ubers in any other official meta, what you're saying has no sense. This is like saying : we shouldn't open a discussion about Snorlax here because it's not banned in any X Smogon/Showdown meta.

3 : Holy shit Jolteon is an amazing switch in on trick users : so let's sum up. Either he takes 80% on a stab move and doesn't win anything, either he has a Choice while in this meta 9/10 Jolts are played Support or Growth+Wish, so it basically destroys it. But yeah i bet Jolt will sweep the world with Tbolt, especially in a meta where P2 and Gardevoirs are a lot played.

4 : The reality is that protect isn't that used. It's used on the Wish set of Chansey (less than 9/10, obviously) because it pairs well with it but for the others Pokemons you listed, it's almost not used or at least very rare (quite used on Swamp stall tho, but Swamp CB is more used).

5 : Incase you didn't notice, gbwead is above you on the leaderboard with a ratio highly superior than yours, so i guess he knows it, but thx for worrying, it's appreciable.

7 : "any sticky hold pokemon" ahah there are like 2 : 1 UU and 1 NU (this one not even viable in OU) so there is only one. Be forced to play it to counter trick is a kind of centralization imo.

 

Second part :

1 : You have been clearly disdainful against Stall. You're implying that it's easier to play stall than anything else. I believe that it is not true, and very few players actually know how to play stall very well.

2 : Maybe those things should be unbanned in your opinion, but they are actually banned. This means that a TC decided, with arguments, to ban them. So the logic considering that we can't call something banworthy on PokeMMO because it is not banned on Smogon or anywhere seems wrong.

3 : Once again, have a look at the reality : Venusaur is a looot played atm and it's almost always a Venusaur Growth. Anyway, this is off topic but I was just anwsering you when you were implying that I can't be creative.

4 : pls start watching tournaments / start competiting (olol I can also say some ridiculous stuff) because I don't know where you're finding SpecP2 & Choice Dusclops everwhere but I personally don't. Even if you saw this one time, how does it prove that it counters well Trcik users ? As I said with calcs, they actually take really bad hits on stab moves.

5 : Same for everything, a bad predict could cost you the game, but what I am trying to say is that Starmie Trick (for exemple) will rarely be in a situation where he loses the advantage. Trick will cripple almost anything and the risk of bringing another sweeper to sponge it is very high. In others words it is a Low risk High reward situation.

7 : calling the opinion of Frags himself or other ppl who were watching cause i'm very skeptical on this point...

[RysPicz]

Not sure about the purpose of calling us plebs or saying to gbwead to start to watch tourneys/to compete. What a funny comment. Do I have to remind you that in this OU leaderboard tournament we were 4 members of our team while you were alone ?

Only to make you aware of what you're doing XPLOZ, do not make this you/ RNG vs Aura. I am not responsible for Doc's actions cuz I'm not in position to chose anyone's friends or enemies and my respect/ sympathy towards RNG members is not affected by any of his actions or words.

At the top of that, most of our OU players (such as sfSkump or myself) cannot even play ranked due to horribly distributed hours of them happening.

 

As for the discussion of Trick itself (let's get back on topic instead of exchanging childish shots) I thought I'd bring something I reminded myself about when I saw it being a recommended item for one of the pokes somewhere- Mail cannot be tricked. Surely leftovers recovery will be missed but it's a surefire counter for any potential trick user.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Tyrone

[DoubleJ]

I don't think gb read my page king above. Against stall, muk is very much viable. Mixed muk is even better.

[DoctorPBC]

That wasn't the point at all, really. I agree that I should have stayed at "we were 4". AURA is obviously one of the most important teams of this game, but RÑG is too, so i'm a bit pissed of when a guy is shit talking at us for no reason.

 

Didnt shit talk at all.... I called you a pleb....

 

If I was to be like, "yo fam RNG blows chunks and sucks hard at every tier in this game" then your response would be justified

 

I called you a pleb, chill out.

 

 

 

Not sure about the purpose of calling us plebs or saying to gbwead to start to watch tourneys/to compete. What a funny comment. Do I have to remind you that in this OU leaderboard tournament we were 4 members of our team while you were alone ? Do I have to remind you that gbwead already won tournaments (without speaking about Doubles & other RNG based shit ofc) and is maybe one of the most creative players of this game ? Your comments are subjective, and using personal attacks for no reasons shows it...

 

That was my first point but this is off topic so let's come back to the interesting points :

 

First part :

1 : Since we have Ubers that are not Ubers in any other official meta, what you're saying has no sense. This is like saying : we shouldn't open a discussion about Snorlax here because it's not banned in any X Smogon/Showdown meta.

3 : Holy shit Jolteon is an amazing switch in on trick users : so let's sum up. Either he takes 80% on a stab move and doesn't win anything, either he has a Choice while in this meta 9/10 Jolts are played Support or Growth+Wish, so it basically destroys it. But yeah i bet Jolt will sweep the world with Tbolt, especially in a meta where P2 and Gardevoirs are a lot played.

4 : The reality is that protect isn't that used. It's used on the Wish set of Chansey (less than 9/10, obviously) because it pairs well with it but for the others Pokemons you listed, it's almost not used or at least very rare (quite used on Swamp stall tho, but Swamp CB is more used).

5 : Incase you didn't notice, gbwead is above you on the leaderboard with a ratio highly superior than yours, so i guess he knows it, but thx for worrying, it's appreciable.

7 : "any sticky hold pokemon" ahah there are like 2 : 1 UU and 1 NU (this one not even viable in OU) so there is only one. Be forced to play it to counter trick is a kind of centralization imo.

 

Second part :

1 : You have been clearly disdainful against Stall. You're implying that it's easier to play stall than anything else. I believe that it is not true, and very few players actually know how to play stall very well.

2 : Maybe those things should be unbanned in your opinion, but they are actually banned. This means that a TC decided, with arguments, to ban them. So the logic considering that we can't call something banworthy on PokeMMO because it is not banned on Smogon or anywhere seems wrong.

3 : Once again, have a look at the reality : Venusaur is a looot played atm and it's almost always a Venusaur Growth. Anyway, this is off topic but I was just anwsering you when you were implying that I can't be creative.

4 : pls start watching tournaments / start competiting (olol I can also say some ridiculous stuff) because I don't know where you're finding SpecP2 & Choice Dusclops everwhere but I personally don't. Even if you saw this one time, how does it prove that it counters well Trcik users ? As I said with calcs, they actually take really bad hits on stab moves.

5 : Same for everything, a bad predict could cost you the game, but what I am trying to say is that Starmie Trick (for exemple) will rarely be in a situation where he loses the advantage. Trick will cripple almost anything and the risk of bringing another sweeper to sponge it is very high. In others words it is a Low risk High reward situation.

7 : calling the opinion of Frags himself or other ppl who were watching cause i'm very skeptical on this point...

 

@xpl

 

I am just reading a ton of QQ here for no real reason. Chill the fuck out, there is nothing really to respond to here... just you restating points that you have already made other than pointing out that GBwead is higher than me on the ladder... well im higher than 95% of LYLE on the ladder, doesnt make me a better player or their opinions less valid.

 

Ive responded to these comments/questions already and I wont be restating or responding to some of the untrue jabs or what you think I implied for the sake of an argument, please go re-read what I said and try to not sound so butthurt in any future comments regarding myself.

 

As for the frags battle you are welcome to watch the replay, me and him have had very close battles recently so im not sure why you would be skeptical

 

@everyone else

 

I have made my points against why I feel it shouldnt be banned and clearly im not alone in thinking this, I wont be commenting on trick again. I feel its not banworthy and you have all seen my reasons why

 

Man, first tier discussion thing I have commented on in a while and im getting all this hate... and people wonder why so many good players are turned off from joining the TC... Remember just because its not the same view as your opinion doesnt make it an invalid one.

[gbwead]

I don't think gb read my page king above. Against stall, muk is very much viable. Mixed muk is even better.

My bad, I actually had not read that page king when I responded :/ 

That set looks nice and could probably work in specific situations thanks to the element of surprise. However, Muk still looks underwhelming facing casuals physical walls (Arcanine/Slowbro/Skarmory/Forretress). If it drops Focus Punch/Tpunch/Ice Punch in order to play toxic, Chansey will just stall Muk endlessly. Anyhow, I am looking forward to some Muk action in OU if that ever happens XD

 

Edit: If ploz and doc start playing Marowak to counter my future Muk, I will be mad af.

Edited April 27, 2016 by lamerb

[Robofiend]

Some thoughts- we want stall to be viable. If you're couching your arguments in "fuckin wall fgts!!!!" reasoning (pbc, for instance), you're basically arguing against yourself because healthy metas allow for stall to have a chance alongside offense and balance.

What we don't want is for stall to be universal or unchecked, same as how we don't just want everyone running pure offense.

Next, suggestions that I use Muk to counter starmie and trick Zam are just plain dumb. Similar to the "just use Hitmontop!" case for OU Tyranitar but neglecting to mention that Specs Psychic blows Muk out of the water. Doom, on the other hand, is a beast and could find an OU niche, I think.

Also, @pbc, if you want a CA thread you have to make it nice yourself, which means no shit talking people or their teams.

[Kurodashi]

He is not the one that wants trick banned tho.

Besides whats that BS "make it nice yourself", if something is broken it should be discussed doesn't matter who backs it up or who doesn't, do your job as TC.

 

I think what robo meant was the shit talking part.

 

Edit: "which means no shit talking people or their teams"

[DoubleJ]

.
Next, suggestions that I use Muk to counter starmie and trick Zam are just plain dumb. Similar to the "just use Hitmontop!" case for OU Tyranitar but neglecting to mention that Specs Psychic blows Muk out of the water. Doom, on the other hand, is a beast and could find an OU niche, I think.

 

Hey it's called creativity, and I didn't say it counters Alakazam. That monster is going to be spamming Psychic like nobody's business. Starmie on the other hand is more likely to spam Surf which isn't a 2HKO. Also, as evidenced in PokeMMO the surprise aspect in the game almost always wins (think KingBowser, ThinkNice, uMadBrah, and myself)... that frags tho ugh. I'm just trying to help players understand there are ways to break a playstyle without relying on what is 'mainstream'. 

[FNTCZ]

Making it easier; Does anyone really think that trick should be banned?

[DoubleJ]

Making it easier; Does anyone really think that trick should be banned?

 

Not I. 

[OrangeManiac]

Can we just get threads out of things so we can save all this stuff there. If/when the threads are up those threads would probably lack a lot of discussion which belongs there because people hate repeating what they said there.

 

Something I want to point out, though: This necessarily shouldn't be "OU" discussion. If Trick is a broken move as it is, then it should feel broken in all tiers. If Trick breaks OU for some reason then I'd argue the problem necessarily isn't Trick but the staleness of the OU tier. By tiering policies I'm aware a move ban in higher tier would affect to lower tiers as well but all I'm trying to say that you probably should try to seek metagame problems from further than just "Trick is bad, mkay." if Trick only causes dislike there. I don't think Trick is broken but I'd rather voice up there than here. In general, I think move bans should have heavy reasoning to begin with to get banned. I don't think even Baton Pass should necessarily be banned now but that's time for another discussion.

[Robofiend]

Yes, some people have asked for a discussion of Trick, though I think we will want to give the meta some time to adapt before we haul off and ban specific moves. It seems
Like the first order of business will be deciding what to move down from Ubers, if anything, and see if that changes the equation.

I'm all for people voicing their opinions on trick - I for one find it a little questionable since OU lacks the 4th gen staples for shitting on Trick Starmie (Tyranitar, Scizor, Spirtomb).

Also prior post was meant broadly mostly talking about how Muk is bad and stall is ok - only the shit talk point was meant for pbc really.

Carry on.

[Robofiend]

No because uncompetitive shit is always uncompetitive, and these two items really do very little to stop the inevitable shitstorm of bp chain teams.

The logical fallacy you're leaning on is called false analogy goml bitch

[BurntZebra]

No because uncompetitive shit is always uncompetitive, and these two items really do very little to stop the inevitable shitstorm of bp chain teams.

The logical fallacy you're leaning on is called false analogy goml uguu

On a serious note, the choice items actually do limit baton pass to some extent. First, there are more trick users which kind of ruin the baton pass chain if it isn't predicted correctly. Second, it's a lot harder to start a baton pass chain when you can get outsped even after you agility and general damage output from band/specs users can be often too great to actually set up successfully. Something like baton pass jolteon is a lot more risky when it can get outsped by metagross or medicham or flygon, and even if a jolteon does baton pass out from a chansey or something, it's not really that big of a deal as diglett is pretty bad and trapinch can only trap chansey and doesn't need baton pass jolteon to help. 

 

You can't really prove that it is uncompetitive without a test, just like I can't really prove snorlax is going to be centralizing/unhealthy. Baton pass was and is a different kind of uncompetitive than wobb's shadow tag, and it's not really clear that it is uncompetitive in a supposedly different meta. 

 

With that being said, I don't really think baton pass will actually improve the meta, so I don't really think it should be tested, but the same goes for snorlax. 

Edited April 28, 2016 by BurntZebra

[Robofiend]

On a serious note, the choice items actually do limit baton pass to some extent. First, there are more trick users which kind of ruin the baton pass chain if it isn't predicted correctly. Second, it's a lot harder to start a baton pass chain when you can get outsped even after you agility and general damage output from band/specs users can be often too great to actually set up successfully. Something like baton pass jolteon is a lot more risky when it can get outsped by metagross or medicham or flygon, and even if a jolteon does baton pass out from a chansey or something, it's not really that big of a deal as diglett is pretty bad and trapinch can only trap chansey and doesn't need baton pass jolteon to help. 

 

You can't really prove that it is uncompetitive without a test, just like I can't really prove snorlax is going to be centralizing/unhealthy. Baton pass was and is a different kind of uncompetitive than wobb's shadow tag, and it's not really clear that it is uncompetitive in a supposedly different meta. 

 

With that being said, I don't really think baton pass will actually improve the meta, so I don't really think it should be tested, but the same goes for snorlax. 

 

Maybe scarf Cross will make things like Espeon think twice, but other than that, the whole point of Baton Pass is still the same and it's still pretty broken. I guess you could say trick shuts BP down, but again that gets into the gray area because you in particular have expressed concerns about the competitiveness of Trick. 

 

The thing about moves like BP (same goes for Volt Switch, U-Turn, etc.) and pokemon like Dugtrio/Wobbufett is that they're always going to be inherently uncompetitive but that doesn't necessarily make them banworthy. Spikes, Rocks, Priority and Life Orb present pretty big barriers for the BP abuser in Gen IV onwards (also Shaymin - remember that time I Seed Flared you to death in PSL? Lions OP). Honestly, U turn teams were also pretty scary in that meta too, since scarf Flygon and Scizor can almost guarantee chip damage on everything in the tier. But in 6th gen that's not so much the case.. I digress.

 

All I'm saying is that these moves are uncompetitive on a spectrum relative to the tools we have to check them. I don't think we currently have the tools to check them, outside of rampant Trick and maybe Skarmory, so I don't think it's worth our time to test, similar to how it's not worth our time to test Gengar or Tyranitar because they both just got amazing buffs with these new items. Anyway, Baton Pass adds nothing worth keeping to the game, unless we were to get some 4th Pokes I don't see a good reason to even test it simply because of how centralizing it'd be. 

[fredrichnietze]

But it was banned for being centralizing and stupid. We have a different meta now. We NEED TO TEST IT NOW JUST LIKE WE NEED TO TEST SNORLAX, RIGHT?! 

i somewhat agree that the reset should include baton pass. choice items = trick and also choice items + all breakers. lots of special attacks can very quickly hit very hard these days and their is no cm baton pass user that can switch in and set up these days. vaporeon can still acid up and stop most physical attackers, but the special walls cant cm and bp away vs the best special specs. meaning all you have to do to completely shut down a bp chain is siwtch in a specs special attacker before they can cm up and you'll stop the chain. you need 2 special walls for bp chains and 1-2 phsyical ones leaving a weak bp team or a big whole in the strategy.

 

252+ SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Signal Beam vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mr. Mime: 84-100 (57.1 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Signal Beam vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mr. Mime: 62-74 (42.1 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Umbreon: 116-138 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 88-104 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Signal Beam vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 58-70 (28.7 - 34.6%) -- 4.6% chance to 3HKO

 

[fredrichnietze]

this new item that allows switching regardless of moves/ability's changes things. wobbu and dugtrio no longer fit into the description of uber support.

[DoubleJ]

So it's pretty apparent that the devs ran into a major roadblock with copyright issues for Generation 4 implementation. I think it's safe to say that we likely won't be getting any Gen 4 maps (which includes like the whole shabang) anytime sooon. With that said, what the hell we going to do with the meta?

 

We waited for Life Orb, and now we have Life Orb. Do we reset or nah?

[DoctorPBC]

So it's pretty apparent that the devs ran into a major roadblock with copyright issues for Generation 4 implementation. I think it's safe to say that we likely won't be getting any Gen 4 maps (which includes like the whole shabang) anytime sooon. With that said, what the hell we going to do with the meta?

 

We waited for Life Orb, and now we have Life Orb. Do we reset or nah?

 

you have to reset imo.

 

I would say keep salamence away just because it is too powerful regardless... but then it wouldnt be a proper reset. I think a good course of action is to use the 128 man OU on the weekend as a testing ground for our current meta + the two items, if it looks relatively stable a reset might not be needed... but I doubt it

[Gilan]

unban baton pass please. With these hyper aggressive items, setting up with bp users is much more difficult...

[DrCraig]

The usage will sort it out anyway, especially if there is matchmaking usage soon
I think resetting would be a waste of time and a lot of effort. The meta will do its thing on its own.

Reaccessing some uber/BL/BL2 bans does seem reasonable however.