OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[Gunthug]

Gard can potentially burn Metagross which could cripple it and Metagross still wouldn't like taking shadowballs from Misd because it still needs a lot of health if it wants to survive espeed or not sure if it even survives flail. 

 

Do people even use Pikachu in OU? I know you do Joey brah, but does anyone else find it useable?

I've seen a LOT more pikachu in OU in the last month or so than I ever have - and I think it has to do with BP becoming easier to farm, since a good pikachu set is usually pretty reliant on BP

[OrangeManiac]

stuff

 

You kinda need to realize competitive discussions aren't "personal arguments". I used your points to describe my opinion about the archetype, not to break down anything from your argument I possibly can. I just fixed one terminological mistake in your post and that was that uncompetitive implies it beats everything always.

 

To correct a misinterpretation, I meant that how Linoone beats Weezing and Slowbro is that even when it has Belly Drummed instead of Extremespeeding it subs down to 1 hp to Flail those things away. That +6 Flail also kills things like Metagross and stuff and it's the most common way to beat the bulky things that would seemingly counter it.

[DoubleJ]

Gard can potentially burn Metagross which could cripple it and Metagross still wouldn't like taking shadowballs from Misd because it still needs a lot of health if it wants to survive espeed or not sure if it even survives flail. 

 

Do people even use Pikachu in OU? I know you do Joey brah, but does anyone else find it useable?

 

If you bring in a Metagross against a Gardevoir, regardless of being burned or not, you still prevent the Linoone sweep:

 

252+ Atk Choice Band burned Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 132 HP / 4 Def Linoone: 106-126 (62.3 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

And in addition to this, players can start thinking outside of the box and run Facade to really frighten their opponent, or as many do, just have a Cleric since there are a plethora of these that are viable right now. 

 

In regards to Pikachu, I honestly don't know, but players should begin to understand that this is a really good poke in the tier with only one real flaw and that is being Pursuit killed by Aerodactyl. 

 

 

EDIT: And at orange, the guy above wasn't turning this into a 'personal argument', he was simply explaining further that dedicating three pokes to one winning strategy isn't 'uncompetitive' at all. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by DoubleJ

[OrangeManiac]

EDIT: And at orange, the guy above wasn't turning this into a 'personal argument', he was simply explaining further that dedicating three pokes to one winning strategy isn't 'uncompetitive' at all. 

 

 

He didn't turn it to one but the way he responded made me feel like he thought I was trying to make it one.

[DoubleJ]

He didn't turn it to one but the way he responded made me feel like he thought I was trying to make it one.

 

Can't be so sensitive, these things happen. I read it as being pretty emotionally neutral, but that isn't here nor there. Go reset the meta brah. 

[OrangeManiac]

Can't be so sensitive, these things happen. I read it as being pretty emotionally neutral, but that isn't here nor there. Go reset the meta brah.

No sensitiveness included, the whole "I already said this" multiple times in his post and turning my arguments against me where I partly agreed with him made me just think he thought my whole point was 100% directed to what he said, even though it wasn't. Just letting out my opinions in general.

Should have probably just quoted the one/two sentences I really wanted to fix about his post instead of constructing the post like that by starting all over, my bad I guess.

Edit: All I wanted to say really is that when writing in comp discussions I consider the writing should be directed to every reader, and when I read the post it seemed a bit "directed to me" instead of the whole audience (the forum readers) and I thought that makes it look like we're back and forth arguing. Everyone with their own opinions of course, no offense taken. I acknowledge my first post did use a bit the same perspective as I didn't want the discussion to go, so apologies for that.

(I'll stop derailing now)

and can't reset the meta no longer in council. Edited April 21, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[DoubleJ]

 

and can't reset the meta no longer in council.

 

The wrong tier council members are leaving/getting kicked. Such a disappointment, not in you, just in the system. Glad to see you still involved though from a community aspect. 

[FNTCZ]

Can't be so sensitive, these things happen. I read it as being pretty emotionally neutral, but that isn't here nor there. Go reset the meta brah. 

 

This. no bad intentions orange. also yes, pikachu is really strong in our current meta, and yes go reset the thing i don't want to make pages long argument about it ^/jk(?)

[RysPicz]

Its not Magneton that is broken.
it is not Linoone or belly drum either.
Nor Memento. Its the whole combination which POSSIBLY might be too strong in our meta due to lack of viable ghost types.I think my voice might matter a little in here since I've been using that kind of team for a long timr, very frequently.
First of all, Magneton is not an issue. Check damage calcs for +6 Silk Scarf 200bp Flail on Forret or Skarm and you will realise why. Even I have lately thrown Magnet away from this team because pursuit trapping the ghost is much more important.
Belly drum is an incredibly risky move as well. Cutting your hp in half just to have a chance to potentially sweep is risky af and not always works, especially when someone brings a multi-hit move to break your Linoones sub and KO it.
Memento is not really a problem either. You are literally killing one of your pokes to get a safe switch on a crippled poke, which might still be able to break the sub.

This team archetype is incredibly risky and difficult to pull even with proper preparations. I am at work and I have limited time but I will try to extend the post when I will come back home.

Edited April 22, 2016 by RysPicz

[OrangeManiac]

Yeah it's a really difficult discussion when a combo is "possibly broken" but nothing individually is. There hasn't been many "combo/archetype discussions" before but those discussion threads aren't and shouldn't be against 'tiering policies'.

 

It's kinda like Smogon's SwaggerPlay which lead Swagger of getting banned even though Swagger itself wasn't "broken". I'm not comparing the effectiveness of this archetype to notorious SwagPlay, I'm just using this as an example.

[fredrichnietze]

remember the vilplume/steelix/somethign else? core discussion? sadly it has been deleted or hidden but we had a good conversation about the whole banning a thing vs banning combination of things.

[XPLOZ]

I request a discussion about the move trick.

 

It's pretty brainless, deadly and you can't do much against it.

Edited April 24, 2016 by XPLOZ

[Erayne]

I request a discussion about the move trick.

It's pretty brainless, deadly and you can't do much against it.

But works well almost only on walls. So you can just switch to something that isn't a wall. And is one of the few countermeasures to chansey

[DrCraig]

I request a discussion about the move trick.

 

It's pretty brainless, deadly and you can't do much against it.

Haha I suggested this to Zebra last week

Trick is uncompetitive

Yea boy

[XPLOZ]

But works well almost only on walls. So you can just switch to something that isn't a wall. And is one of the few countermeasures to chansey

 

So you have to take a huuuuuuuge risk to try to counter it, you're just proving what i'm saying.

 

You can counter chansey with other things, which I pointed out on an other thread. https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/55218-ou-viability-thread/?p=1257331. Trick is the very last thing that I mentionned, so your argument isn't very relevant.

 

 

What i'm seeing more and more : stuff like Starmies with Trick and also utility moves (Recover,  Rapid spin...). They just manage to give their ChoiceSpec/Scarf to cripple hard something and then they are used as utility Pokemons. That shows that they are very confident about using Trick. You'll tell me that it's not that good because it limits the moveset but come on, a Starmie with 3moves is a lot better than a wall blocked on a move... It gives a big advantage and it's too hard/risky to counter it.

Edited April 27, 2016 by XPLOZ

[BlackJovi]

#BanTrick #BanChansey 

[DoctorPBC]

Ya know what counters trick starmie....

Not being a complete and utter dummy who can't win without spamming 4+ walls

Xploz, I beat you the other day in ladder with a trick starmie... It worked well because you brought a inconsequential amount of offense and instead chose to bring I think it was 4 walls and a spinner in the hopes of stalling me out.

News flash: trick counters heavy stall, I brought the same strategy vs Frags In the top 16 tour and it turned into a liability.


But no lets go QQ on the forums, because woe me anything that might actually be better than my heavy stall teams must be OP and should be banned.


Incase you all miss the point I'm trying to get across. Trick is not OP, it's been a presence in every meta since its 3rd gen implementation amd not once has it been viewed as OP or ban worthy. Learn to form counter strategies and move out of your comfort zone before calling something OP because it is a hard counter to your favourite playstyle.


A mere few suggestions for counter play

Specs P2
Choice Clops
Any Jolteon ever
Protect
Substitute
Taunt
Pursuit traps
Hyper offense teams
Spikes (to scout out a choice Pokemon)


Edit: id also like to point out that by this logic trapinch should also be banned because it fucks over walls too much

Edited April 27, 2016 by DoctorPBC

[gbwead]

Worthless non sense and trashtalk + some discussion elements

 

1. PokeMMO metagame is not the same as other metagames; making blind assumptions based on other metagames is not really relevant when it comes to PokeMMO.

 

2. Specs P2 or Choice Clops are quite unviable right now imo. I do hope they become more viable in the future though.

 

3. What is Jolteon gaining by switching on a Trick user exactly? Jolteon either loses his leftovers or takes severe damage without the ability to punish the opponent. P2/Chansey really don’t care about the dmg of a spec Jolteon.

 

4. Protect/Substitute/Taunt. Being forced to introduce these moves in certain movesets can be quite centralising. Wobbuffet wouldn’t be banned if everyone was playing Taunt/Substitute.

 

5. The problem with Pursuit Trap is that pursuit trappers are quite vulnerable to Trick users. Houndoom/Aerodactyl/Slaking/Tauros/Metagross/Heracross all get OHKO or 2HKO by Starmie. Switching Pursuit trappers on a Trick user doesn’t accomplish much anyways. Even if the Pursuit Trapper predicts the Trick, Starmie remains a serious threat that hasn’t been managed yet :

• If Aerodactyl switches on Trick, he loses CB which means he no longer has the power to OHKO Starmie. On the other hand, Starmie can OHKO aerodactyl with Surf.
• If Heracross switches on Trick, he ends up in a 50/50 decision. If Starmie stays and Heracross uses Pursuit, Heracross dies the next turn. If Heracross does Megamisshorn, Starmie could simply switch. In all cases, Heracross Pursuit doesn’t kill Starmie even if Starmie switches.             252+ Atk Heracross Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 56-68 (41.4 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
• Tauros, without CB, loses to Starmie.
• Houndoom just dies to surf whatever the scenario.
• Metagross doesn’t OHKO Starmie with Thunderpunch. With significant bulk investment, Metagross could potentially secure a kill against Starmie with a Tpunch/Pursuit combination since Starmie would not be able to 2HKO.
• Slaking is in a 50/50 situation where the wrong choice means its death.

 

6. All playstyles should be viable in a respectable tier, not only hyper offense. 

 

7. Spikes can help scout, but scouting without a proper way to counter trick is useless. Even if I suspect/know that I am facing a trick user, I won’t be able to do anything since there are hardly any switch ins. Some Trick users (mostly in UU/NU) are also immune to Spikes.

 

8. Trapinch only counters some walls. There are plenty of other viable walls that people can use if they fear Trapinch. 

 

Edit: Btw describing XPLOZ as if he was a heavy stall player is utterly ridiculous. 

Edit2: I'm not saying Trick should be banned, but I think a discussion about Trick is needed.

Edited April 27, 2016 by lamerb

[XPLOZ]

Maybe the most subjective/irrelevant stuff I have read for a while...

 

 

Not being a complete and utter dummy who can't win without spamming 4+ walls

Xploz, I beat you the other day in ladder with a trick starmie... It worked well because you brought a inconsequential amount of offense and instead chose to bring I think it was 4 walls and a spinner in the hopes of stalling me out.

 

I'm happy to learn that you don't like stall and that it's not a leggit playstyle for you.

 

 

Incase you all miss the point I'm trying to get across. Trick is not OP, it's been a presence in every meta since its 3rd gen implementation amd not once has it been viewed as OP or ban worthy.

 

So it isn't banworthy because it is allowed in other metas... So what ? Should we unban Bliss/Snorlax/Dugtrio/Ttar/Nite right now ???

 

 

Learn to form counter strategies and move out of your comfort zone before calling something OP because it is a hard counter to your favourite playstyle.

 

Telling me that but I almost popularized Venusaur Growth which is actually a great wallbreaker that everyone plays at the moment.

 

Specs P2
Choice Clops
Any Jolteon ever
Protect
Substitute
Taunt
Pursuit traps
Hyper offense teams
Spikes (to scout out a choice Pokemon)

 

If only you brought me a list of relevant counters, but wtf is that ?

• Offensiv spec P2 : 2HKO by Surf/Psychic of a timid Choice Spec Starmie
• Choice clops : lel. So you give a Choice to Clops and it gives back you another one. > Clops isn't viable anymore and you can manage to give the 2nd Choice to another pokemon. Not to mention that Duclops specially defensive takes a big 45.5 - 55.1% from Starmie Modest ChoiceSpec Surf.
• Any jolt ever : Can you explain me how exactly please ? Offensive jolts : 252+ SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jolteon: 117-138 (83.5 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Defensive jolts : 2HKO too + can't even support the team with a Choice Spec.
• Protect + sub > refer to gbwead
• Taunt. Tell me with what you're gonna use taunt against a Choice Spec Starmie ? Something faster and that isn't 2HKO'd/1HKO'd.
• Pursuit traps : As it was easy as fuck to trap a Starmie Choice Spec.... 1 - If Starmie doesn't trick and just attacks, you're dead. 2 - If he uses trick you'll have difficulties to trap it and as gbwead said, it will be either a 50/50 decision or an advantage for Starmie.
• Hyper offense team : Am I forced to play hyper offense ? Centralization ?
• Spikes : You mean Cacturne ? Cause spikes, wtf ? Ololol my Skarm is gonna use Spikes against a Starmie and either he will Trick/Rapid spin and my Skarm will become shit or he will just attack me and I will lose. I am happy & strong :D (PS : Cacturne is actually a counter of all Starmies (except Icebeam which is pretty rare), but not of Trick : Alakazam will just Trick + Signal beam his face)

This is like you are forgetting that Starmie has a huge offensive presence after all, especially with a Choice Specs in his hands. (yh Starmie has hands). Basically every counter you mentionned is wrekd if Starmie decides to attack. Offense is weak to Offense, and Starmie is fast/powerful so you can't just bring offense against it (Yolooooooooo).

 

 

Edit: id also like to point out that by this logic trapinch should also be banned because it fucks over walls too much

 

That is not true. I do not support a ban of Trapinch and I already talked about it on other threads : Even if it might be the best solution against something like Chansey, you actually take a risk by using Trapinch. It's slow, can trap only very specific things, will trap mainly 1 thing and then die...

 

An other exemple : Ursaring breaks walls like a king but shouldn't be banned of course. So my logic isn't that one.

 

 

Edit : Your battle was won against Frags with this huge amount of RNG you got, but for some reasons you decided to lose it. (just for the record as you're mentionning it)

Edited April 27, 2016 by XPLOZ

[KaynineXL]

Let's not forget Trapinch requires a whole team slot, where as trick only requires one move slot.

[FNTCZ]

Ya know what counters trick starmie....

Not being a complete and utter dummy who can't win without spamming 4+ walls

Xploz, I beat you the other day in ladder with a trick starmie... It worked well because you brought a inconsequential amount of offense and instead chose to bring I think it was 4 walls and a spinner in the hopes of stalling me out.

News flash: trick counters heavy stall, I brought the same strategy vs Frags In the top 16 tour and it turned into a liability.


But no lets go QQ on the forums, because woe me anything that might actually be better than my heavy stall teams must be OP and should be banned.


Incase you all miss the point I'm trying to get across. Trick is not OP, it's been a presence in every meta since its 3rd gen implementation amd not once has it been viewed as OP or ban worthy. Learn to form counter strategies and move out of your comfort zone before calling something OP because it is a hard counter to your favourite playstyle.


A mere few suggestions for counter play

Specs P2
Choice Clops
Any Jolteon ever
Protect
Substitute
Taunt
Pursuit traps
Hyper offense teams
Spikes (to scout out a choice Pokemon)


Edit: id also like to point out that by this logic trapinch should also be banned because it fucks over walls too much

 

Thank. You.

 

EDIT: We aren't going to discuss trick, are we?. same goes for trapinch.

Edited April 27, 2016 by FNTCZ

[NikhilR]

I believe there should be a risk associated with running every sort of pokemon available, I just don't see this risk being present in running specs starmie. 

 

You can't complain about people running walls and staying in their comfort zone if you're going to use easy and comfortable tactics like trick or trapinch to break walls. 

Edited April 27, 2016 by NikhilR

[DrCraig]

I believe there should be a risk associated with running every sort of pokemon available, I just don't see this risk being present in running specs starmie. 

 

You can't complain about people running walls and staying in their comfort zone if you're going to use easy and comfortable tactics like trick or trapinch to break walls. 

I think the same can be said for Choice Band and Choice Scarf Metagross these days. Metagross is an offensive behemoth as it is; the power behind discarding your band to cripple your counter while still having sweeping power is pretty big. Not to mention Metagross still has effective special moves on top of that. There's no risk to Metagross using Trick when it pleases because it can function just as well with a band as it can with leftovers.

[NikhilR]

I think the same can be said for Choice Band and Choice Scarf Metagross these days. Metagross is an offensive behemoth as it is; the power behind discarding your band to cripple your counter while still having sweeping power is pretty big. Not to mention Metagross still has effective special moves on top of that. There's no risk to Metagross using Trick when it pleases because it can function just as well with a band as it can with leftovers.

 

Nah I hear you, but I used to run banded swampert which was somewhat a decent check to Metagross. Like that, banded / scarfed metagross can be a check for specs trick Zam cuz of how spammable psychic is and Zam is severely punished if it gets locked onto psychic cuz it can be pursuit trapped, but when it comes to specs surf / hydro pump, the risk factor associated is very low. 

 

But yeah, trick can basically cripple almost any sort of team.

[DoubleJ]

I mean, this is essentially a meta. It's like a rollercoaster. You're going to find playstyles that you are very comfortable with and the community will adapt. If you're really successful with it, the meta will actually adopt it and that's when changes start to happen. After a while, that playstyle or team archetype will be countered by the community. 

 

Stall is wrecked by Trick (which mind you, is usually only used once to cripple one wall on your team). Trick itself is typically seen as a "gimmick" in most metagames because it is easily countered, and sometimes devastatingly so. 

 

Protect, Taunt, Substitute, and later prediction are keys to victory. We haven't seen much Taunt in PokeMMO, but it too destroys stall and can be a very beneficial move to utilize. 

 

Everyone and their mama knows which pokemon readily use Trick (Starmie, Metagross, Alakazam). Just be conscious of this and be ready to find new ways to stop them. 

 

We can't spam Chansey + Weezing + Ludicolo forever. 

 

 

 

EDIT: You could also get really creative and use this defensive combo wrhich absolutely poops on Chansey, outspeeds Trapinch, one shots Flygon, and can cripple Gyarados at -1 Attack. If you have the balls you can swap into Starmie with the insane special bulk (rip if Psychic, but that's where pokemon number two comes in...)

 

Muk 

Item: Leftovers

Nature: Adamant

Ability: Stick Hold

EVs: 252 HP / 56 Attack / 200 SpDef

• Thunderpunch
• Ice Punch
• Substitute
• Focus Punch

Houndoom 

Item: Choice Band

Nature: Hasty

Ability: Flash Fire

EVs: 252 Attack / 4 SpAtt / 252 Spe

• Pursuit
• Crunch 
• Flamethrower / Overheat
• HP Ice / HP Electric

A Choice-locked Starmie or Alakazam is a sitting duck for Pursuit Houndoom (or even Absol hint hint Ice Beam + Thunderbolt) when you see Psychic. HP Ice vs Electric is purely for whatever your team is scared of, Flygon or Gyarados. This set is also fairly safe switch in when you know Trick is coming from Starmie. 

 

 

EDIT2: Forgot to mention, but Sticky Hold blocks Trick from swapping items and your opponent is essentially locked into Trick allowing you to get a free Substitute or pivot switch. 

Edited April 27, 2016 by DoubleJ