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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread


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Most importantly, I think someone *cough Darkshade* should communicate to the tier council the Developers' intentions in terms of adding new items. If we get no more items in the next 12 months, tiering should reset. If something like life orb/assault vest are planned within a few months, there is no point tiering again. Also some balancing should be discussed, the creep introduced with these 2 new choice items might warrant the need for

 


I dont understand why they didnt comunicate it to the tier council... I mean, those are items that can bring a super boring meta (or maybe not, maybe it becomes super cool!). now they have to discuss what to do about reset or not, is there any reason to not comunicate it to the council?

 

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I find tyranitar to be less scary now to be perfectly honest so I disagree.
 
Its CB sets werent unbeatable, it was the DD sets that got it banned out... and now that a huge amount of the meta can now outspeed a +1 ttar and KO it before it can do anything is reason that it should be brought back imo.  Scarf gives T-tar way more counter play

 
Maybe, but even so, having to deal with the threat of three different sets is a lot of pressure. The CB set can annihilate walls like Skarmory/Swampert who try to phase or resist an attack, the Scarf set will help to weed out Starmie or other Choice-locked opponents, and the DD set will laugh at anything that's expecting a bad Scarf prediction and can't OHKO.
 
While lots of pokemon can hit it hard, Tyranitar actually lives a lot of the fast scarf/band attacks at full health. While Tyranitar isn't exactly the easiest pokemon to get into play free of damage and that's not always the conditions you'll be seeing, the damage outputs here are pretty convincing of its acceptable defenses.
 
252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 246-290 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Starmie Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 256-304 (75 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 260-306 (76.2 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 276-326 (80.9 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 278-330 (81.5 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

Part of the problem is that Scarf Quake/Superpower is also really predictable and really hurts your team's momentum if your opponent decides to keep Tyranitar alive and sends in any of the myriad of other pokemon in the tier who resist these attacks.
 
I'll take your point about Theorying items (although TC are now trying to discuss possible changes with the devs). While we don't know exactly when these changes will happen, or how much they'll affect the game, most of the TBA items also serve to help Tyranitar. Life Orb alone gives you endless possibilities, Assault Vest gives you extra special wall powers, and Shuca or (Fighting Resist) berry can also do a lot for you. I think my most solvent point here is the sheer number of pokemon that Tyranitar more or less laughs at:
 
- Arcanine: you simply can't hang with that kinda Rock stab, not to mention a real lack of offense that will leave you totally unable to do anything, even if you do predict that Fire Punch correctly.
- Weezing: sure, Tyra can't switch in reliably, but when running DD/Taunt, it has little to fear with a SpDef buff and Weezing's lack of offense against it
- Venusaur: Giga drain does less than half to the spooky dino, and the popular speedy sets don't have shit to say to a +1/+1 or Scarf set with Fire Punch on hand.
- Ludicolo: Scarftar alone 3HKO's it with Rocks (Giga only 3HKO's as well) and other sets obviously do more
- Skarmory: Lol, Steel Wing. Honestly all it can do is hope you don't have Taunt and WW or force you out with resistances and spikes. Anything that isn't Choiced will be able to plow through it with a flinch or two, or a dedicated coverage move.
- Dusclops: Absolutely worthless as a spinblocker with Tar around. Same goes for Haunter, really.
- Slowbro: A wall no more when you have a phys attacker with a STAB that totally nukes you.
- Jolteon, Zam, Espeon: Yeah, have fun using these guys, either you give up your HP to hit Tyranitar or get Pursuited to death trying to flee. Bulkier tar sets don't even care about specs, and they force people who use any of these mons to make blind 50/50's about setting up CM or trying to hit you on the switch. These pokemon suffer even with Chansey around, not to mention what happens when you suddenly get a crazy bulky pokemon that now needs its own coverage move and can live anything else you throw at it rather comfortably. 
- Magneton: With the usual Fire/Electric set, you really can't do shit to Tyranitar except hope for para, and even HP grass is pretty weak.
- Chansey, P2: These pokemon are already pretty easy to abuse. When you throw in something that doesn't mind Toxic (CB or DD Tar) and ravage the meta with a STAB attack, it's just a bit crazy.
 
That should be enough to make my main case: Tyranitar, even if it has checks, will just be insanely centralizing at this juncture. We've worked hard to make OU suck less, and frankly I think we've made a lot of progress from a year ago when pretty much every OU match was a Curselax war or before that when it was just Dragonite battles.
 
I've long held that we're not going to be able to deal with Tyranitar until we get more Steel Types (BP Scizor, Scarf Heatran) and more viable fighting attacks (Close Combat, Focus Blast). I'm going to stand by that until we get word of more changes from the devs.

Edited by Robofiend
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There's no way Ttar should come back. In addition to what Robo has said, let's not forget that this beast has pursuit stab which can revenge kill a lot of things, which means rip tauros or any other pokemon that tries to lock itself into pursuit. Running Scarfed Medicham / Heracross is in no way a safe answer to deal with the DD set because what you need are priority moves like Bullet Punch or Mach Punch (viable users for it). 

 

I'm not that keen on a tier reset tbh. Blissey will just wall harder, Snorlax coming back CAN be possible because of how it won't be able to wall +1 special attacks that easily, but the curse set will still be too annoying to deal with. Dragons are still gonna spam CB dclaw with mag around, and having Trio around to revenge kill your offense would be outright shitty. 

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Still should do a reset. That kind of discussion is the potential for afterward.

 

I disagree, we shouldn't just reset the tiers because "lol wynaut, we just got new items" especially when its obvious that those items will help the very things we're unbanning as much as their supposed checks and counters

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I disagree, we shouldn't just reset the tiers because "lol wynaut, we just got new items" especially when its obvious that those items will help the very things we're unbanning as much as their supposed checks and counters

doesnt that beat the purpose of tiering by usage? I mean, those 2 new items are huge change in the meta game, not only for OU and ubers stuff comming down, but for the lower tiers aswell. But, again this is too quick of a change for the playerbase. How long will it take before the players adapt to a reset before we can gather any convincing data. The same way umb and vap has been UU for like a month now and its usage is so low, people can't adapt fast enough. We need a head start on stuff that affects tiering, id love to know how tiering works now, like the actual way you guys are gonna work it out with the new matchmaking method to gather data on tiers. Whats the cutoff point gonna be? and like weekly or monthly % on stuff so we can see the change before it actually happens, and not the other way around like we've seen in the past. 

 

That being said, A reset would be ideal, but would be hard to pull off just because it would screw up the metagame so hard, and for so long. Id be open at unbanning a couple stuff and see how it goes, how hard is it gonna fuck up the meta? can't be harder then having umb vap in UU right? 

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There's no way Ttar should come back. In addition to what Robo has said, let's not forget that this beast has pursuit stab which can revenge kill a lot of things, which means rip tauros or any other pokemon that tries to lock itself into pursuit. Running Scarfed Medicham / Heracross is in no way a safe answer to deal with the DD set because what you need are priority moves like Bullet Punch or Mach Punch (viable users for it). 

 

I'm not that keen on a tier reset tbh. Blissey will just wall harder, Snorlax coming back CAN be possible because of how it won't be able to wall +1 special attacks that easily, but the curse set will still be too annoying to deal with. Dragons are still gonna spam CB dclaw with mag around, and having Trio around to revenge kill your offense would be outright shitty. 

the argument "x is no longer viable if y is banned/unbanned" shouldnt matter. every single teir change will change the meta in many ways some predictable others not. 

ex:hitmontop was no longer viable in ou when tytr got banned.

bullet punch isnt a thing? not yet right? and mach vs a fight/psychic and fight/bug is going to do how much dmg? are we talking hitmonlee here? or breloom? neither can 1hko or even 2hko either poke with mach and both can be 1hko'd.

 

[hr]

 

anyways point im here is to point out yes the reset will make life shitty for a while. but if the devs lets us use the useage data from matchmaking and if someone is smart enough to look at the calculation for determining what % of a teir will be moved down and realizes the 5 is no longer accurate, then maybe it can be done in a month instead of several months. the first one was kinda shitty for a while like all resets but it got better. last time it was one choice item and this time it's 2. the only real reason to argue not doing it is "i dont want to do the work" and "the meta will be bad for a while".

for the first one

u0Zbv1q.png

for the second

i point out the first one as a success and ask you was it worth it?

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What are you talking about, there's literally no reason not to at least talk about a reset, or some trials.  There will insurmountable of data available from so many matches to determine balancing, now and in the future. You can only predict so much, if anything, from theorizing and spitting out numbers, Sometimes you gotta actually experiment. 

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the argument "x is no longer viable if y is banned/unbanned" shouldnt matter. every single teir change will change the meta in many ways some predictable others not. 

ex:hitmontop was no longer viable in ou when tytr got banned.

bullet punch isnt a thing? not yet right? and mach vs a fight/psychic and fight/bug is going to do how much dmg? are we talking hitmonlee here? or breloom? neither can 1hko or even 2hko either poke with mach and both can be 1hko'd.

for the second

 

No you're absolutely right, but my point about TTar coming back also meant that it would in no way improve or bring any sort of healthiness in the tier. It discourages people from bringing normal types and revenge kills so many things easily, so it fits qualities of unhealthy or maybe support depending on the playstyle. 

 

Bullet Punch is not a thing yet, and what are you referring to when talking about fight / psychic or fight / bug? I mean that if we had viable OU users which have Mach Punch (mostly referring to Infernape), it could be dealt with. Strictly speaking from my experience in DPP, most of the best answers for DD Tar, has been Loom, Bullet Punch Scizor, Scarfed Jirachi, Mach Punch Ape, Scarfed Flygon, Swampert. Currently Flygon and Swampert seem to be the most viable answers for it in Pokemmo. 

Edited by NikhilR
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I want to bring a discussion up from the uncompetitive archetype of "Magneton + Memento + Belly Drum Linoone". Even though this set isn't exactly foul proof, it takes the prediction element from the matches completely. Due to the existence of Magneton the main Steel-types which seemingly could stop Linoone will get trapped and Memento makes sure Linoone can set up against pretty much any Pokemon anyways, so it's not like Memento + Linoone is stopped by hyper offense either.

 

The reason why I brought up the combo is the fact that you cannot exactly pinpoint which one of them is the most cancerous one. But first I think it's necessary to have a discussion whether the community finds this archetype cancerous to the competitive experience and if they do then consider what should be the best approach to the issue. I personally find Memento the most cancerous. It's a fairly uncompetitive move which has capabilities of being leading to prediction free sweeps. Even if a player would predict a Memento the -2 is so significant that so many set up sweepers have no problems at all setting up to that. When you have something that can Belly Drum, situation is even worse. Memento could be abused with Swords Dance users as well but not as badly which makes it kinda hard to say if Memento is only good with Belly Drum but all is something that should be discussed about. All there is to it is that this archetype doesn't reward the best player in the battle at all and in addition it's really hard to teambuild against it not only with the limited amount of walls against but the walls that can beat it are Magtrapped.

 

If Gengar comes back, this discussion would be rather pointless though.

 

Edit: Even though I pinpointed out Linoone, this can be abused to the lesser extent by likes of Poliwrath, Magmar in lower tiers which might not be as effective but are still uncompetitive ways to win.

Edited by OrangeManiac
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I find bellydrum to be the real issue because that is what is capable of sweeping. Most times Linoone doesn't even need memento support in order to pull off a sweep. A +12 boost (that is the maximum assuming your attack is at -6) is just too much and when equipped with sitrus berry, the risk is even lesser. While I admit it's harder to pull off with pokemon like charizard, the reward imo is just too good. Bellydrummers can set up on almost all sorts of teams, even vs offense if the opponent is locked into something like pursuit, which has become very common in our meta. 

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I want to bring a discussion up from the uncompetitive archetype of "Magneton + Memento + Belly Drum Linoone". Even though this set isn't exactly foul proof, it takes the prediction element from the matches completely. Due to the existence of Magneton the main Steel-types which seemingly could stop Linoone will get trapped and Memento makes sure Linoone can set up against pretty much any Pokemon anyways, so it's not like Memento + Linoone is stopped by hyper offense either.

 

The reason why I brought up the combo is the fact that you cannot exactly pinpoint which one of them is the most cancerous one. But first I think it's necessary to have a discussion whether the community finds this archetype cancerous to the competitive experience and if they do then consider what should be the best approach to the issue. I personally find Memento the most cancerous. It's a fairly uncompetitive move which has capabilities of being leading to prediction free sweeps. Even if a player would predict a Memento the -2 is so significant that so many set up sweepers have no problems at all setting up to that. When you have something that can Belly Drum, situation is even worse. Memento could be abused with Swords Dance users as well but not as badly which makes it kinda hard to say if Memento is only good with Belly Drum but all is something that should be discussed about. All there is to it is that this archetype doesn't reward the best player in the battle at all and in addition it's really hard to teambuild against it not only with the limited amount of walls against but the walls that can beat it are Magtrapped.

 

If Gengar comes back, this discussion would be rather pointless though.

 

Edit: Even though I pinpointed out Linoone, this can be abused to the lesser extent by likes of Poliwrath, Magmar in lower tiers which might not be as effective but are still uncompetitive ways to win.

 

 

It requires you to dedicate 3 out of your 6 team slots to one strategy. high risk high reward, not uncompetitve at all (i mean it isn't like a brainless free-win button. You have to play and execute it rather well because specially the early game you have half of the tools a normal team would have), adding to this, from the ou-steels magneton can only reliably trap skarmory as metagross and forretress usually carre eq (full sp def forre doens't get 0hit by magneton's hp fire). we also have dusclops and misdreavus. we also have intimidate, we also have  protect and pressure users who make extreme speed run out of pp (yeah you'd have to sacrifice half your team but the one running linooe also did the same in order to set-up), we also have rock-types, it also can't kill other walls (~80% to slowbro, weezing..). etc, etc etc

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It requires you to dedicate 3 out of your 6 team slots to one strategy. high risk high reward, not uncompetitve at all (i mean it isn't like a brainless free-win button. You have to play and execute it rather well because specially the early game you have half of the tools a normal team would have), adding to this, from the ou-steels magneton can only reliably trap skarmory as metagross and forretress usually carre eq (full sp def forre doens't get 0hit by magneton's hp fire). we also have dusclops and misdreavus. we also have intimidate, we also have  protect and pressure users who make extreme speed run out of pp (yeah you'd have to sacrifice half your team but the one running linooe also did the same in order to set-up), we also have rock-types, it also can't kill other walls (~80% to slowbro, weezing..). etc, etc etc

 

You seem to misunderstand what "uncompetitive" means. "Uncompetitive" means something that takes the prediction element away from the game. For something to be uncompetitive it doesn't need to work 100 times out of 100, it's just that it requires no skill at all to be used. Slowbro and Weezing are slower than Linoone so they aren't really reliable options to Linoone if Linoone is Sub+Flail (unless Weezing has Haze but it's not standard). Intimidate doesn't really help, dropping down Linoone from +6 to +5 or even further to +4 usually causes at least 2 Pokes to faint unless the situation is good for the opponent. The only viable Rock-type in the OU tier is Aerodactyl and it needs near max HP to live a +6 Espeed. Rhydon kinda stops it but sort of needs to be scared of Iron Tail. I know 4MSS exists but there is a problem if you have no reliable options to something that already seems uncompetitive asf in so many aspects.

 

Dusclops as an argument I can sort of see but bringing Misdreavus to even conversation is just going wayyyyy to far trying to get counters for this thing.

Edited by OrangeManiac
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Imo, the only uncompetitive part of that combo is Magneton. I don't see Memento + Linoone as broken or viable.

Considering that Linoone is not even OU atm, I think it is pretty safe to assume that the Magneton/Memento/Linoone combo has not proven to be as effective as some may think.

 

Linoone also has some pretty important moveset flaws. If Linoone doesn't play Substitute, a nasty status can prevent a sweep. If Linoone does play Substitute, the prediction element of the game is very much alive here since most walls at -2 can still break a Substitute. 

 

Rhydon/Dusclops  and probably Haunter shut down this combo completly. Some Pokemons like Miltank or Cloyster are bulky enough to handle a +6 return or espeed. Pikachu Fake Out is also cool XD

 

Edit:

The most important Memento user is Gardevoir and Gardevoir is completly shut down by Cacturne. Cacturne adds spikes to the field (adios Flail Linoone) and has Encore to prevent Belly Drum.

Edited by lamerb
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Imo, the only uncompetitive part of that combo is Magneton. I don't see Memento + Linoone as broken or viable.

Considering that Linoone is not even OU atm, I think it is pretty safe to assume that the Magneton/Memento/Linoone combo has not proven to be as effective as some may think.

 

Linoone also has some pretty important moveset flaws. If Linoone doesn't play Substitute, a nasty status can prevent a sweep. If Linoone does play Substitute, the prediction element of the game is very much alive here since most wall at -2 can still break the Substitute. 

 

Rhydon/Dusclops shuts down this combo completly. Some Pokemons like Miltank or Cloyster are bulky enough to handle a +6 return or espeed.

 

Usage exactly isn't the sole indicator of how good something is. For the same reason some people don't use walls because it's against their competitive moral, some people might not use this archetype because it is against their competitive moral for being uncompetitive. In addition, it's just boring to play with something like this and because it isn't foul proof no one wants to start a match and see there's not much they can do with this archetype. However, this archetype is effective enough to at least limit the metagame a lot and cause a lot of matches which contain no virtues what the competitive battle by tiering wants to have.

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How about we just bring some pokemons down

 

 

EDIT: But to touch on the conversation at hand, none of the above three are 'broken' in my opinion. Magneton is just a really good poke in our tier right now considering the increased use of Haunter, the presence of Metagross, and the continued use of Forretress. Memento is a move that seems like a mindless attack, but honestly with Metagross around there is always a risk that you just simply lose a pokemon against Clear Body. And let's be honest, the primary Memento users are Gardevoir and Misdreavus (maybe), and both of which are easy peasy switch ins for Metagross. Linoone is an incredible sweeper, but there is a lot of risk trying to set it up. It can even be revenge killed by a faster Linoone or Espeed Pikachu from a player that has a good scout. It also has a tough time breaking steel types unless it runs Flail, which adds another level of difficulty to its sweep, and if it runs Flail, it likely has absolutely nothing for ghost-types. 

Edited by DoubleJ
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You seem to misunderstand what "uncompetitive" means. "Uncompetitive" means something that takes the prediction element away from the game. For something to be uncompetitive it doesn't need to work 100 times out of 100, it's just that it requires no skill at all to be used. Slowbro and Weezing are slower than Linoone so they aren't really reliable options to Linoone if Linoone is Sub+Flail (unless Weezing has Haze but it's not standard). Intimidate doesn't really help, dropping down Linoone from +6 to +5 or even further to +4 usually causes at least 2 Pokes to faint unless the situation is good for the opponent. The only viable Rock-type in the OU tier is Aerodactyl and it needs near max HP to live a +6 Espeed. Rhydon kinda stops it but sort of needs to be scared of Iron Tail. I know 4MSS exists but there is a problem if you have no reliable options to something that already seems uncompetitive asf in so many aspects.

 

Dusclops as an argument I can sort of see but bringing Misdreavus to even conversation is just going wayyyyy to far trying to get counters for this thing.

 

lmao, where do i start?

 

"Uncompetitive" means something that takes the prediction element away from the game. | it's just that it requires no skill at all to be used.

It requires you to dedicate 3 out of your 6 team slots to one strategy. high risk high reward, not uncompetitveUnskilled at all (i mean it isn't like a brainless free-win button. You have to play and execute it rather well because specially the early game you have half of the tools a normal team would have)I already said this.

 

Also, to add here to what i already said

 

It does not take prediction away. 100% the opposite. Just to start, magneton implies prediction. skarmory has whilrwind, other steels carry eq, many magneton sets usually also have metal sound / substitute which are two moves that encourages prediction. Users of memento also need to predict to play around it, etc etc.

 

imo, someone running a memento - magneton - linoone needs MORE skill (and prediction) than someone running those mainstream ou teams that are so popular today and of which our metagame is completely full (just look at yesterday's ou, lol) |Yeah it does require a lot of skill switching weezing into cb hera, then, even if your opponent predicted your switch and switches into starmie / zam / whatever. you use your super skills to.. switch into chansey / pory! wow! :D|

 

Slowbro and Weezing are slower than Linoone so they aren't really reliable options to Linoone if Linoone is Sub+Flail

> No, there is just no exucuse for you to let linoone set a free sub up before a belly drum unless you played really bad. even after a memento you should be able to deal atleast 25% to linoone to break its sub.

 

dropping down Linoone from +6 to +5 or even further to +4 usually causes at least 2 Pokes to faint unless the situation is good for the opponent.

> (yeah you'd have to sacrifice half your team but the one running linooe also did the same in order to set-up)I already said this.

I mean, you put yourself in a disadventage from the beginning by running that set up and it's your main win condittion, it may cost atleast two pokes to break trhought it but once done, the enemy has already lost its main win condition since he commited so hard to this one strategy. 

 

The only viable Rock-type in the OU tier is Aerodactyl and it needs near max HP to live a +6 Espeed. Rhydon kinda stops it but sort of needs to be scared of Iron Tail. I know 4MSS exists

 

> ???? +6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl: 140-165 (90.3 - 106.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

 

You said it yourself about 4MSS

 

I can sort of see but bringing Misdreavus to even conversation is just going wayyyyy to far trying to get counters for this thing.

 

dunno, i've seen many misdreavus in ou lately to deal with the chansey and the slow playstyle. not trying hard at all...

 

EDIT: JJ said it better than me.

 

and yeah, what the others said that gardevoir.

 

Also, list of OU pokemon that can take a E-Speed at +6

def Venusaur.

def Arcanine (intimidate)

Slowbro

Magneton 

Cloyster

Weezing

Rhydorn

def Gyarados (intimidate)

Vapoeron

Aerodactyl

Forretress

scizor

milktank

def swampert

slaking

dusclops (duh!)

metagross

 

btw..

 

How about we just bring some pokemons down

Edited by FNTCZ
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How about we just bring some pokemons down

 

 

EDIT: But to touch on the conversation at hand, none of the above three are 'broken' in my opinion. Magneton is just a really good poke in our tier right now considering the increased use of Haunter, the presence of Metagross, and the continued use of Forretress. Memento is a move that seems like a mindless attack, but honestly with Metagross around there is always a risk that you just simply lose a pokemon against Clear Body. And let's be honest, the primary Memento users are Gardevoir and Misdreavus (maybe), and both of which are easy peasy switch ins for Metagross. Linoone is an incredible sweeper, but there is a lot of risk trying to set it up. It can even be revenge killed by a faster Linoone or Espeed Pikachu from a player that has a good scout. It also has a tough time breaking steel types unless it runs Flail, which adds another level of difficulty to its sweep, and if it runs Flail, it likely has absolutely nothing for ghost-types. 

 

Gard can potentially burn Metagross which could cripple it and Metagross still wouldn't like taking shadowballs from Misd because it still needs a lot of health if it wants to survive espeed or not sure if it even survives flail. 

 

Do people even use Pikachu in OU? I know you do Joey brah, but does anyone else find it useable?

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