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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread


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9 hours ago, Thunderprime said:

Can you guys stop trying to ban everything because it is "skill-less"? I mean cmon this moveset is not that popular and we all know its main purpose is to defeat snorlax. Secondly there is no "noob" that will use this tactic and win a tournement wtf... Anyone who use this tactic is at least an average player and he probably learned this shit combo thx to you guys. Pokemon is always about 10% luck you may lose because of a miss, a crit, or a paralize too you will rage as much as losing to confusion. You lose because of rng deal with it better luck next time but sub swagger is not banworthy at all it has many counters unlike snorlax who can bypass his counters. Lets make a decision about fatass then maby talk about this sub swagger jolteon which will probably become even more uncommon if lax gets the ban.

Can you name those counters?

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33 minutes ago, Moetal said:

Ironically, I'm actually on your side

That's not what irony is. This is irony:

 

34 minutes ago, Moetal said:

you should take some chill pills seriously though; you seem a bit on edge.

On 9/2/2016 at 9:23 PM, Moetal said:

Do you even think about what you write? I've completely lost all respect for you.

Afaik that was your first ever post in comp alley too, in response to JJ who has been here fighting the good fight for years. I wasn't even aware that you played competitively, or had any ties to this game other than drawing creepy children. So my suggestion would be to provide posts with a little more substance rather than firing off sarcastic shitposts then hiding behind the "chill dude its just a prank" bullshit

 

 

 

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@NikhilR

Sounds like someone needs more self control.

 

Take confusion out of the equation for a second and replace it with protect or substitute. Does the situation change much? Assuming confusion doesn't wear off that turn - would you rather have 50% chance to hit your opponent full dang or yourself for 40 power, or doing pretty much nothing to your opponent due to protect/substitute? Both choices equally suck, but they are equally "cancerous" as you would put it. If you feel the need to ban confuse ray, put protect and substitute on the table too.

 

14 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

That's not what irony is. This is irony:

 

Afaik that was your first ever post in comp alley too, in response to JJ who has been here fighting the good fight for years. I wasn't even aware that you played competitively, or had any ties to this game other than drawing creepy children. So my suggestion would be to provide posts with a little more substance rather than firing off sarcastic shitposts then hiding behind the "chill dude its just a prank" bullshit

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but if JJ has been here "fighting the good fight" for so long, explain to me why the tiers are in such a mess where snorlax are unchecked while swagger jolteon are actually a thing? Let us take this to private pm Mr Councilor; we're going to derail at this rate.

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1 minute ago, Moetal said:

@NikhilR

Sounds like someone needs more self control.

 

Take confusion out of the equation for a second and replace it with protect or substitute. Does the situation change much? Assuming confusion doesn't wear off that turn - would you rather have 50% chance to hit your opponent full dang or yourself for 40 power, or doing pretty much nothing to your opponent due to protect/substitute? Both choices equally suck, but they are equally "cancerous" as you would put it. If you feel the need to ban confuse ray, put protect and substitute on the table too.

 

I'm sorry, but if JJ has been here "fighting the good fight" for so long, explain to me why the tiers are in such a mess where snorlax are unchecked while swagger jolteon are actually a thing? Let us take this to private pm Mr Councilor; we're going to derail at this rate.

I mean I've been saying this for years, PokeMMO OU is just a broken system without the accessible legendaries. It's Gen 3 on steroids with the phys/special split and an expanded movepool. It's only understandable that there will be a lack of balance regardless of what we do with tiering.

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17 minutes ago, Moetal said:

@NikhilR

Sounds like someone needs more self control.

 

Take confusion out of the equation for a second and replace it with protect or substitute. Does the situation change much? Assuming confusion doesn't wear off that turn - would you rather have 50% chance to hit your opponent full dang or yourself for 40 power, or doing pretty much nothing to your opponent due to protect/substitute? Both choices equally suck, but they are equally "cancerous" as you would put it. If you feel the need to ban confuse ray, put protect and substitute on the table too.

 

My option isn't to only hit my opponent, but to heal myself as well. When my opponent uses protect / sub, he is also giving me an opportunity to regain some momentum through self recovery. Like I said earlier, you toxic something on the switch in, and then use confuse ray on it, you're then free to attack. Confuse Ray isn't the same as swagger because as others have pointed out, it's not a double edged sword. Even though I hit myself for lesser amount of health, it doesn't make much of a difference when I'm taking damage in 3 ways as mentioned. So no, confuse ray can be abused with a combination of several other moves which makes it the problem.

Edited by NikhilR
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1 hour ago, Moetal said:

@NikhilR

Sounds like someone needs more self control.

 

Take confusion out of the equation for a second and replace it with protect or substitute. Does the situation change much? Assuming confusion doesn't wear off that turn - would you rather have 50% chance to hit your opponent full dang or yourself for 40 power, or doing pretty much nothing to your opponent due to protect/substitute? Both choices equally suck, but they are equally "cancerous" as you would put it. If you feel the need to ban confuse ray, put protect and substitute on the table too.

 

I'm sorry, but if JJ has been here "fighting the good fight" for so long, explain to me why the tiers are in such a mess where snorlax are unchecked while swagger jolteon are actually a thing? Let us take this to private pm Mr Councilor; we're going to derail at this rate.

Pms not necessary, I'll get back on track. Though I'd love to contribute more to the swagger/confusion discussion, I'm refraining until I have a chance to read more of this

 

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/swagplay-evaluating-potential-bans-basic-definition-of-uncompetitive-in-op.3500620/

 

It's a lot of pages, and obviously the huge difference is the existence of prankster and foul play in gen 6 which exacerbate the uncompetitiveness of swagger even more. However, the premise is pretty clear - swagger is, at its core, a very uncompetitive move without any skill involved at all. Though it may not be broken on every pokemon that learns it, the move is still at its core uncompetitive with no redeeming qualities as far as gameplay is concerned. Is confuse ray in the same boat? I'm not sure

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@Gunthug

Thanks for being civilized. I suppose we got off on the wrong foot, so let me explain my actions so far in case there were any misunderstandings between us, especially since you're giving me quite a bad name right now and I dislike having less credit on my words than they should be worth.

 

I started off addressing the issue with how I felt towards the confuse ray ban proposal. If confuse ray needs to be banned, pretty much everything else needs to be banned or re-balanced as that is how I saw it. I would like to emphasize that although my post was sarcastic, it is directed at the issue only. NikhilR, at this point, responded with a personal insult. I retorted, asking him to "chill". NikhilR responded by claiming I cannot see the issue, and again ends in personal insult. Once again, I asked him to "chill", I claimed his proposal is terrible (s word, censored into pooped), and compared confuse ray to thunder wave. 

 

Now I am not certain what triggered you at that point, but you felt you need derail to explain what irony is, defame my artworks by using the word "creepy" rather than "strange/something not in your comfort zone/taste", then bring up a completely unrelated issue concerning JJ. I believe a proper apology is needed here.

 

Now with that out of the way, let me get back on the issue.

 

@NikhilR

From your examples, it seems to me you are switching in "checks" rather than "counters". You are switching in a Pokemon that is both vulnerable to toxic and slower than your opponent. Does the problem actually lies in confuse ray, or the fact that you are being set up on?

 

Let's change up the scenario a bit - A Gyarados vs Jolteon. We all know Jolteon counters and will OHK Gyarados, but what if the Jolteon is switching in to try to counter the Gyarados? Now you are not looking at just Gyarados vs Jolteon, you're looking at Gyarados +1 vs Jolteon, which, if Jolly, outspeeds and OHK Jolteon. What about a Jolly scarfed Gyarados that makes two moves? Again, Jolteon melts before being able to doing anything. Jolteon now is no longer a counter, and is not even a decent check. Is the problem on the move Dragon Dance, or is the problem on bad switch in? This is something you need to take into consideration before we have further discussion on confuse ray.

 

@BlackJovi @Lazaro23

Spoiler

hgh2.gif

 

Edited by Moetal
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6 hours ago, Moetal said:

@Gunthug

Thanks for being civilized. I suppose we got off on the wrong foot, so let me explain my actions so far in case there were any misunderstandings between us, especially since you're giving me quite a bad name right now and I dislike having less credit on my words than they should be worth.

 

I started off addressing the issue with how I felt towards the confuse ray ban proposal. If confuse ray needs to be banned, pretty much everything else needs to be banned or re-balanced as that is how I saw it. I would like to emphasize that although my post was sarcastic, it is directed at the issue only. NikhilR, at this point, responded with a personal insult. I retorted, asking him to "chill". NikhilR responded by claiming I cannot see the issue, and again ends in personal insult. Once again, I asked him to "chill", I claimed his proposal is terrible (s word, censored into pooped), and compared confuse ray to thunder wave. 

 

Now I am not certain what triggered you at that point, but you felt you need derail to explain what irony is, defame my artworks by using the word "creepy" rather than "strange/something not in your comfort zone/taste", then bring up a completely unrelated issue concerning JJ. I believe a proper apology is needed here.

 

Now with that out of the way, let me get back on the issue.

 

@NikhilR

From your examples, it seems to me you are switching in "checks" rather than "counters". You are switching in a Pokemon that is both vulnerable to toxic and slower than your opponent. Does the problem actually lies in confuse ray, or the fact that you are being set up on?

 

Let's change up the scenario a bit - A Gyarados vs Jolteon. We all know Jolteon counters and will OHK Gyarados, but what if the Jolteon is switching in to try to counter the Gyarados? Now you are not looking at just Gyarados vs Jolteon, you're looking at Gyarados +1 vs Jolteon, which, if Jolly, outspeeds and OHK Jolteon. What about a Jolly scarfed Gyarados that makes two moves? Again, Jolteon melts before being able to doing anything. Jolteon now is no longer a counter, and is not even a decent check. Is the problem on the move Dragon Dance, or is the problem on bad switch in? This is something you need to take into consideration before we have further discussion on confuse ray.

 

@BlackJovi @Lazaro23

  Reveal hidden contents

hgh2.gif

 

Let me explain what happened. I had specs Haunter + full health Cradily + DD Altaria + physically def Exeggutor vs a 20% specs Manec, full health Crobat and Clefable with wish / protect / seismic / toxic. From haunter vs cro, I switched in Cradily and took a confuse ray. He then hit me with a poison fang and thus toxic'd me as its side effect and I couldn't hit him back with rock slide that turn. Tried to rock slide again and got hit by a stronger AA since he most definitely had sharp beak. Stayed in again to recover and got hit by confusion again. Next I switched to Altaria and took an AA. He uses confuse ray as I DD. He attacks me and I dclaw him. He attacks me and then I hit myself and next turn I die. I bring out exeggutor and get by confusion again. He aerial aces me and I get hit by confusion again. Now I have to go back to Cradily and I take damage. Then he confuse rays me and I get hit by confusion again. Cradily died as a result of this and Exegg revenge killed Crobat but then I got swept by Manec. 

 

That is a matchup I should've 100% won and yet lost to a bullshit strategy. My pokemon were fully capable of dealing with my opponent's pokemon but that confuse ray basically took the game out my hand. My opponent has NOTHING to lose by using confuse ray because it was the ONLY way he could win and he did. 

 

With respect to your scenario, it's terrible. Not to nitpick, but Jolt doesn't counter gyarados ever. Jolteon never switches into a gyarados either. I've been doing comp a long time and I'd know whether or not the fault lied in with me or not. Maybe you'll see things more clearly with that scenario. 

 

6 hours ago, Moetal said:

@Gunthug

Thanks for being civilized. I suppose we got off on the wrong foot, so let me explain my actions so far in case there were any misunderstandings between us, especially since you're giving me quite a bad name right now and I dislike having less credit on my words than they should be worth.

 

I started off addressing the issue with how I felt towards the confuse ray ban proposal. If confuse ray needs to be banned, pretty much everything else needs to be banned or re-balanced as that is how I saw it. I would like to emphasize that although my post was sarcastic, it is directed at the issue only. NikhilR, at this point, responded with a personal insult. I retorted, asking him to "chill". NikhilR responded by claiming I cannot see the issue, and again ends in personal insult. Once again, I asked him to "chill", I claimed his proposal is terrible (s word, censored into pooped), and compared confuse ray to thunder wave. 

 

Now I am not certain what triggered you at that point, but you felt you need derail to explain what irony is, defame my artworks by using the word "creepy" rather than "strange/something not in your comfort zone/taste", then bring up a completely unrelated issue concerning JJ. I believe a proper apology is needed here.

 

Now with that out of the way, let me get back on the issue.

Also quit the innocent victim act, if you don't to be met with insults, don't try to undermine others' suggestion with sarcastic bullshit like this because I don't know what kind of reaction you were actually expecting from this. 

 

10 hours ago, Moetal said:

Let's make all moves 100% accuracy and ban everything that inflict status because fuck RNG and fuck balance. Also ban all the players because we are all plebs.

 

10 hours ago, Moetal said:

And people who don't understand the concept of sarcasm need to take some chill pills.

 

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Some people rely on toxic to win... Some rely on paralize why cant people rely on confuse, specially crobat the rng uguu. You got unlucky with cradily and lost the match, 50% chance the inverse scenario would happen and ez win for you

 

 Btw was it only me or rng did matter a fuckton yesterday in my duels, so many crits and miss and fking rockblast always hiting only twice

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32 minutes ago, Thunderprime said:

Some people rely on toxic to win... Some rely on paralize why cant people rely on confuse, specially crobat the rng uguu. You got unlucky with cradily and lost the match, 50% chance the inverse scenario would happen and ez win for you

 

 Btw was it only me or rng did matter a fuckton yesterday in my duels, so many crits and miss and fking rockblast always hiting only twice

The point is that we should be able to minimize the effect of RNG in affecting the outcome of a match. If RNG is going to become the sole decider of an outcome of a match, then it's just not healthy. There is no risk or trade off for using a move like confuse ray because my opponent has absolutely nothing to lose, it's not like if he didn't use confuse ray and used something else then he could've won. It's basically fishing for luck and it is lame. You can't compare toxic / paralysis to confusion because toxic doesn't make a pokemon useless, while paralysis on the other hand could, but it at least increases its longevity. 

 

I'm not saying we should eliminate all kinds of luck, because it is crucial to have that in a healthy metagame, but having a 50/50 chance presented before me in every turn where I'm supposed to actually win, is just not reasonable. 

Edited by NikhilR
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10 hours ago, Lazaro23 said:
12 hours ago, Gunthug said:

I wasn't even aware that you had any ties to this game other than drawing creepy children.

I got a wp for something similar tothis so watch out w the gms pet

 

On topic ban confuse ray is go to far imo...the problem is the +2 associated w swagger even if its only a 40 bp hit a fast poke like jolt or electrode can abuse this w sub and set up your self to +4 and wait to kill your self

 

Counterplay this is kinda hard as lum beries are 1-use-only and owntempo pokes kinda bad and if u keep switching the swag poke can set up a sub and hit (+ this only is pp stall)

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4 hours ago, NikhilR said:

Let me explain what happened. I had specs Haunter + full health Cradily + DD Altaria + physically def Exeggutor vs a 20% specs Manec, full health Crobat and Clefable with wish / protect / seismic / toxic. From haunter vs cro, I switched in Cradily and took a confuse ray. He then hit me with a poison fang and thus toxic'd me as its side effect and I couldn't hit him back with rock slide that turn. Tried to rock slide again and got hit by a stronger AA since he most definitely had sharp beak. Stayed in again to recover and got hit by confusion again. Next I switched to Altaria and took an AA. He uses confuse ray as I DD. He attacks me and I dclaw him. He attacks me and then I hit myself and next turn I die. I bring out exeggutor and get by confusion again. He aerial aces me and I get hit by confusion again. Now I have to go back to Cradily and I take damage. Then he confuse rays me and I get hit by confusion again. Cradily died as a result of this and Exegg revenge killed Crobat but then I got swept by Manec. 

I have finished watching your duel multiple times and it was so damn painful to spectate. You clearly had the win, but you got completly haxed. However, the fact that you lost to a Confuse Ray Crobat doesn't make Confuse Ray problematic imo. You ultimetaly lost to hax. It could have been any kind of hax, but it just happened to be Confuse Ray hax.

 

In your duel, there is 4 critical moments where if you didn't hit yourself, you would have won:

  • Turn 9
    Your Cradily hits itself on the first turn of confusion and could have dealt significant damage to the opposing Crobat that would have died later on in the duel thanks to that damage.
    Chances of that happening: 50%
     
  • Turn 18
    Altaria hits itself on the first turn of confusion and had a great shot at killing Crobat.
    Chances of that happening: 50%
     
  • Turns 21-22
    Exeggutor hits itself twice in a row and could have killed the annoying Crobat.
    Chances of that happening: 18.75% (Confusion doesn't fade after one turn)
     
  • Turn 31-32
    Cradily hits itself twice in a row and could have killed Crobat. If Cradily had not lost so much damage it would have been able to wall the Manectric.
    Chances of that happening: 18.75% (Confusion doesn't fade after one turn)

If any of these things had not happened, you would have won. Considering the chance of all these things happening, you only had 0.88% of losing and yet that is what happened. Hax sucks.

 

 

What would have happened if Crobat was running another set? What if that Crobat was not a Confuse Ray Crobat? Since you were facing a Physical Crobat, what would have happened if you were facing a CB Crobat instead of that Confuse Ray Crobat?

 

On turn 8, you switched out your Haunter  and switched in your 85.9% Cradily on Aeral Ace Crobat. If that was CB Crobat, he had no shot at killing your Cradily there. For this reason, let's pretend your Cradily is actually at 91.9% (leftovers recovery). Is it possible for Aeral Ace CB Crobat to deal 91.9% to Cradily in 2 hits? It is very very unlikely, but it is probable. 1 large roll crit + 1 large roll is enough to kill a 91.9% Cradily. The chances of getting 1 crit in 2 hits is around 12%. The chances that the Crobat gets 2 large rolls in a row are 8.98%. Ultimetaly, that means that your Cradily had 1.09% chance of losing against a CB Crobat.If Crobat kills your Cradily, you have no way on winning that duel unless VadimEmpoleon makes some embarrassing missplays. 

Spoiler

I won't post how I calculated the 8.98% here because it would just complicate things. However, I can explain in private how I got to 8.98%.

What I am trying to say is that CB Crobat has 1.09% chance of winning that duel whereas Confuse Ray Crobat only had 0.88% chance of winning that duel. The winner of that duel got through thanks to hax; the fact that it was Confuse Ray hax is irrelevant since other Crobats just had better odds of haxing you.

 

 

Edited by gbwead
Correcting a %
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@Gunthug 

 

You can't compare Swagplay ban to anything similar to a swagger ban here.

 

First of all, the issues wasn't limited to Jolteon like here ( from what i've been reading ). Swagplay was a cancer cause there were entire teams makes so just to abuse it (Liepard, Thundurus, Klaekli, Sableye, ->>fucking eviolite Murkrow in OU <<-), removing any kind of strategy in the game, making matches extremly tedious, and all the same ( Swag, Sub, Sub, Swag, Foul Play, Sub and so on )

 

Adding to that, Prankster was another big thing, removing any kind of speed battle ( we have a somewhat similar issue since jolteon is in the fastest speed tier, but scarfs exist ). Priority to Swagger, Substitute, Thunderwave, Recover and other such moves was another big selling point, probably the biggest actually, that made that kind of play a thing ( and it actually was a thing ). 

 

Lastly, Foul Play added "merits" to the abuse of swagger, since it would bring on the table damages as well. And guess what? To make things worst most pokemon with Prankster could learn Fould Play ( some also had STAB in it, just to enjoy it more ), plus another pletora of annoying move like (priority) T-Wave etc and recovery moves

 

I'm also pretty sure you know about this, but linking that discussion about Swagplay like that could be interpreted as an open door to RNG based moves bans and such.While it's not like that ( in fact, confusing moves had never had another shining moment in any meta, outside of Dynamich Punch No Guard Champs, but that's another cancer imo )

 

Do i think swagger should be banned? No ( or better, not yet ). As of now, from what i've read, the main concer is Jolteon, which indeed has some common points with what i've written above ( Speed to outspeed most stuff, access to T-Wave to add more RNG to the factors ), but that's it. There may be other sporadics pokes here and there, but i don't think that one instance of abuse can lead to a ban. If the thing actually starts getting more use, on more pokes, on the same team, making this a real "way to play a match" (cause let's be honest, it's not a strategy) then things turn around...

 

BUT

 

There is still a point i'd like to make. On a ladder system, with lots of battle, generally Hax and RNG tends to belance themself out ( lets be real, even if you cry cause you get haxed often, you most likelly haxed your opponents the same way ). But, here, where the most competitive aspect of the game are tournaments ( actually, PSL ), that isn't neccesarry true since you get haxed on first round, and GGWP no more way to belance out the hax. I honestly think that preparing a match just to relay on RNG should not be accepted in a competitive enviroment 

 

Anyway, it's a pretty hard decision, ban it, and set a precedente for other stuff, like eventual Paraflich discussions ( god save us when in 2027 we will get Serene Grace Jirachi and Togekiss ) or similar, or don't do anything and possibly give the impression that "RNG Based ""startegies"" " are ok to use

 

 

Peace 

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10 hours ago, Moetal said:

@Gunthug

Thanks for being civilized. I suppose we got off on the wrong foot, so let me explain my actions so far in case there were any misunderstandings between us, especially since you're giving me quite a bad name right now and I dislike having less credit on my words than they should be worth.

 

I started off addressing the issue with how I felt towards the confuse ray ban proposal. If confuse ray needs to be banned, pretty much everything else needs to be banned or re-balanced as that is how I saw it. I would like to emphasize that although my post was sarcastic, it is directed at the issue only. NikhilR, at this point, responded with a personal insult. I retorted, asking him to "chill". NikhilR responded by claiming I cannot see the issue, and again ends in personal insult. Once again, I asked him to "chill", I claimed his proposal is terrible (s word, censored into pooped), and compared confuse ray to thunder wave. 

 

Now I am not certain what triggered you at that point, but you felt you need derail to explain what irony is, defame my artworks by using the word "creepy" rather than "strange/something not in your comfort zone/taste", then bring up a completely unrelated issue concerning JJ. I believe a proper apology is needed here.

 

If you dislike having less credit given to your words, then I'd suggest choosing them more carefully in the future. Your outburst at Jj is very relevant, as it encompasses your abhorrent behavior on comp alley in recent weeks (which, afaik, is your entire career of comp alley "contributions"). Forgive me, I'd quote some more of your tantrum, but it's been mostly deleted by the mods 

 

Anyway, no apology coming. I have no problem fighting fire with fire, try to keep it civil in the future. Your art is very good, but your arguments in comp alley have been very bad to this point. 

 

In regards to swagger discussion, I'm starting to think that a decision on snorlax should be made first before we fully delve into the matter on the TC

 

edit: @londark will address your post during my lunch 

Edited by Gunthug
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51 minutes ago, gbwead said:

I have finished watching your duel multiple times and it was so damn painful to spectate. You clearly had the win, but you got completly haxed. However, the fact that you lost to a Confuse Ray Crobat doesn't make Confuse Ray problematic imo. You ultimetaly lost to hax. It could have been any kind of hax, but it just happened to be Confuse Ray hax.

 

In your duel, there is 4 critical moments where if you didn't hit yourself, you would have won:

  • Turn 9
    Your Cradily hits itself on the first turn of confusion and could have dealt significant damage to the opposing Crobat that would have died later on in the duel thanks to that damage.
    Chances of that happening: 50%
     
  • Turn 18
    Altaria hits itself on the first turn of confusion and had a great shot at killing Crobat.
    Chances of that happening: 50%
     
  • Turns 21-22
    Exeggutor hits itself twice in a row and could have killed the annoying Crobat.
    Chances of that happening: 18.75% (Confusion doesn't fade after one turn)
     
  • Turn 31-32
    Cradily hits itself twice in a row and could have killed Crobat. If Cradily had not lost so much damage it would have been able to wall the Manectric.
    Chances of that happening: 18.75% (Confusion doesn't fade after one turn)

If any of these things had not happened, you would have won. Considering the chance of all these things happening, you only had 0.88% of losing and yet that is what happened. Hax sucks.

 

 

What would have happened if Crobat was running another set? What if that Crobat was not a Confuse Ray Crobat? Since you were facing a Physical Crobat, what would have happened if you were facing a CB Crobat instead of that Confuse Ray Crobat?

 

On turn 8, you switched out your Haunter  and switched in your 85.9% Cradily on Aeral Ace Crobat. If that was CB Crobat, he had no shot at killing your Cradily there. For this reason, let's pretend your Cradily is actually at 91.9% (leftovers recovery). Is it possible for Aeral Ace CB Crobat to deal 91.9% to Cradily in 2 hits? It is very very unlikely, but it is probable. 1 large roll crit + 1 large roll is enough to kill a 91.9% Cradily. The chances of getting 1 crit in 2 hits is around 12%. The chances that the Crobat gets 2 large rolls in a row are 20.54%. Ultimetaly, that means that your Cradily had 2.49% chance of losing against a CB Crobat.If Crobat kills your Cradily, you have no way on winning that duel unless VadimEmpoleon makes some embarrassing missplays. 

  Reveal hidden contents

I won't post how I calculated the 20.54% here because it would just complicate things. However, I can explain in private how I got to 20.54%.

What I am trying to say is that CB Crobat has 2.49% of winning that duel whereas Confuse Ray Crobat only had 0.88% of winning that duel. The winner of that duel got through thanks to hax; the fact that it was Confuse Ray hax is irrelevant since other Crobats just had better odds of haxing you.

 

 

1) Thanks for taking the initiative to watch my match gb, the problem is that the confuse ray hax has much higher odds compared to any other hax and that's my issue. I can't stand people actually fishing for hax when there's a 50% chance that things can go there way compared to someone spamming icebeam and hoping for a 10% chance to freeze.

 

2) If it was a CB bat I'd find some way to deal with it and if I do end up losing to it, I can say that I lost deservedly and move on but that isn't the case here. I can deal with other sorts of hax because it may / may not occur repeatedly. Like with regards to turn 21-22, each hit can be considered as an independent event (if I'm right), which means that while the chances to get hit twice in a row would be 25% (isn't it supposed be 0.5 * 0.5, if not pls forgive my lack of knowledge in probability), after the first event of hitting myself (which is 50%), I still have a 50% of chance of hitting myself in the second event. 

 

3) Now let's take your situation into consideration where I get crit or my opponent got a high roll. Still I can then decide how I want to proceed from that moment out because being able to change the probability of a loss also takes skill and there's absolutely nothing I could do in the above scenario. 

 

4) Another thing is that there's absolutely no counterplay for this. It's just too uncompetitive because there's nothing the non user of this move, can actually do about it. What I'm mostly going to say next is to associate this with regards to being unable to attack my opponent instead of damaging myself, but what separates confuse ray with an ability like sand veil? Let me explain a bit, sand veil increases a particular pokemon's (Gliscor's mainly) evasion to 1.25% in sandstorm, which means that you have an 80% chance of hitting that pokemon with a 100% accuracy move and yet it is deemed banworthy. There are counterplays to it like setting up a pokemon with rain or using abomasnow to bring out hail. The reason it was banned is because it was deemed to uncompetitive. Like have a look at this match:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-70126

 

There are of course many differences, being that sand is permanent and is automatically set up by Tyranitar and Hippo and they have higher usage too. But when you go about it mathematically, a 80% chance to hit something was considered banworthy while something with 50% chance isn't.

 

I could be very, very wrong with my analogy here and I know that @Gunthug could tell me how wrong I am from it, but I wanted to put it out there because I wanted to know TC's thoughts on it. Right now the situation is that the new player's priority isn't to win their matches by outplaying their opponents, but by haxing them. 

Edited by NikhilR
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The best counter to it? Switching + ppstall. Yeah its a pain but lets say opponent got this annoying jolteon, you have a gardevoir/ porygon +chansey/snorlax. Yes jolt can confuse you easy and sub. Then what? He cant do much damage since only got 2 attack moves useless vs these pokes so you switch (or I would calm mind with gardevoir maby) what are the odds that jolteon successfully kills your 2 pokes before you can heal? Not much, l'll let gbwead do the math (kek).

I think the best way to make this less cancer would be to lower the pp? Like they did with false swipe.

Edited by Thunderprime
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3 hours ago, SirYurop said:

I got a wp for something similar tothis so watch out w the gms pet

 

You sir can rest assured, if someone's getting WP it is the op.

On topic, and to be honest I don't think confuse ray and maybe swagger are ban-worthy.

Crobat has such a wide move pool that once it spams confuse ray, if the opponent switches out the next target can either get 1hko'd ( heat wave / giga drain ), 2/3 hko'd ( sludge bomb / aerial ace etc) , or poisoned ( a toxic that never misses ). 
Speaking about UU walls, Exeggutor is weak to poison, vileplume to fire / fly moves, quagsire to grass, slowking to grass / poison effect, kangaskhan to strong physical hits.
Cloyster is weak to grass moves. hypno is weak to ghost / poison damage + status ( as it can't healbell ), omastar weak to grass, meganium to poison, lanturn to grass, steelix to fire, scizor to fire, donphan to grass, cradily to poison effect ( as it raises special sweepers chances of dealing higher damage due to the poison recoil ), Altaria if physical defensive is weak to strong stab sludge bomb + poison effect, while armaldo's base sp.def is not that high and thus weak to special moves.

Now after stating all the walls and there weaknesses, it is safe to say that there is no safe switch for crobat.
So, if a another pokemon were to use confuse ray, would it be so effective and so hard to switch out ? I don't know, but I know for sure Crobat's 130 speed, decent attacks & its huge move pool are hard to deal with.
 

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15 hours ago, Tyrone said:

I made a new thread about the much complained swagger / confuse ray so that this one can be used for its intended purpose.

Any word on when a "decision" will be made regarding snorlax and its "testing" ???

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