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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread


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The use of swagger in UU is a lot more risky considering the prevalence of multi hit moves, but also note that each of those moves are physical attacks and one poor 50/50 roll could prove devastating. In theory Sceptile could run swagger along with Giga Drain and an HP which would scare Rock Blast, Icicle Spear, and most Pin Missile users.

 

In NU, the fact that Grumpig and Licki have Own Tempo does force the issue a bit but what if Absol uses SubSwagger with Megahorn and Superpower?

 

It's not just Jolteon, SubSwagger is relevant on any number of pokemon. You even mentioned it yourself in your edit @gbwead

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Just now, DoubleJ said:

The use of swagger in UU is a lot more risky considering the prevalence of multi hit moves, but also note that each of those moves are physical attacks and one poor 50/50 roll could prove devastating. In theory Sceptile could run swagger along with Giga Drain and an HP which would scare Rock Blast, Icicle Spear, and most Pin Missile users.

Tentacruel would 100% counter a Sceptile like that.

 

Just now, DoubleJ said:

In NU, the fact that Grumpig and Licki have Own Tempo does force the issue a bit but what if Absol uses SubSwagger with Megahorn and Superpower?

Misdreavus/Mantine/Venomoth would all be able to deal with an Absol like that.

 

 

I get that those are just examples, but they are not that good and they would need a good match up in order to work. Basically, you need a good match up + uncompetitive rng in order to win with the swagger strategy. Jolteon swagger is more reliably uncompetitive imo.

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Since Jolteon is the pokemon that's making swagger "op" I'll be mostly addressing it;

I can't see Swagger as too noncompetitive, the same way crits aren't. There's obviously a few things we're missing that would help out but at the same time we still have a hell of alot to deal with it, off course abilities being one unfortunately that won't help vs Jolt however since the problem is more Jolteons speed in conjunction with the confusion we have choice scarf, priority, muti-hit moves or even sound based moves to blow through Jolts sub. If the speed isn't your issue, run a persim/lum berry and take the free +2 with open arms.

Also just pointing this out, although it sucks to lose to something as stupid as swagger Jolt, there's just as much chance to not hit yourself in confusion and get a nice sweep courtesy of your opponent, there's only so many times you can click substitute.

 

Things that would help; infiltrator, the rest of the priorty/sound/multi-hit moves, tangled feet Dodrio. I think there was more I wanted to write but it's late, bad memory ect..

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5 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

The use of swagger in UU is a lot more risky considering the prevalence of multi hit moves, but also note that each of those moves are physical attacks and one poor 50/50 roll could prove devastating. In theory Sceptile could run swagger along with Giga Drain and an HP which would scare Rock Blast, Icicle Spear, and most Pin Missile users.

 

In theory Sceptile could run swagger but it doesn't because of the risk involved in using it. If anything multi hit pokemon would scare swagger sceptile because the sub is rendered useless by the +2 dmg. And it is the fact that swagger sharply raises attack which leads to swagger being an uncommon strategy, if you can call it that, because of the risk that is involved in using it. While the reward can be great so is the loss if you dont win the coin flip. While I agree the 'strategy' is uncompetitive i dont think it is ban worthy. 

 

Yea absol doesnt have the same speed advantage that jolteon has, which is what makes jolteon so effective

 

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30 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Tentacruel would 100% counter a Sceptile like that.

 

Misdreavus/Mantine/Venomoth would all be able to deal with an Absol like that.

 

 

I get that those are just examples, but they are not that good and they would need a good match up in order to work. Basically, you need a good match up + uncompetitive rng in order to win with the swagger strategy. Jolteon swagger is more reliably uncompetitive imo.

I don't argue that Jolteon is a better Swagger strategy, but how much use is Misdreavus, Mantine, and Venomoth getting in NU? What does Absol benefit from staying in on any of those three and honestly what does Misdreavus do to Absol if it lacks HP Fighting? What happens if Absol gets lucky RNG rolls on each of those three when it spams Swagger from behind the Sub it had on their switch in?

 

The same goes for Tentacruel. It's slower than Sceptile and thus is susceptible to the same RNG rolls associated with Swagger. Swagger fails and Sceptile simply switches out to attempt the spam another turn. 

 

I think you're bogging yourself down in an attempt to debate. SubSwagger is viable on any number of pokemon because it serves one purpose and that's to prevent the opponent from attacking you and instead to attack itself with a boosted 40bp attack. Swagger on a pokemon aside from Jolteon would likely lead to confusion from the opposing player whom likely isn't going to readily have a true counter. It's just an easily spammable attack that has little risk to use. 

 

 

EDIT: And to add, we all know that Sceptile's versatility can terrify any Tentacruel set. With Leaf Blade + HP Ice, the only pokemon that scares Sceptile is really only Scizor which falls susceptible to the SubSwagger strategy similarly to Snorlax (inb4 but but but QA!)

 

Edited by DoubleJ
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16 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

So you think spamming Body Slam, a damage inflicting STAB move on most users, is an RNG strategy similar to Swagger? You also think that SubSeed is an RNG strat? Or what about Protect + Perish Song which really doesn't rely on RNG at all?

 

Thunder Wave + Cute Charm aside, your comparisons were absolutely terrible. 

twave + cray is worse than charm.

As for your point, I don't disagree, and I'm leaned towards it's ban(swagger), but running the move alongside haze doesn't really make it that more dangerous? It's a double edged sword, that's all there is to it, not counting the complete rng bs it gives. Why would you run swagger with a haze user when you can simply run confuse ray and not bother with more moves. I'm just trying out to weed out the not-so-good sides of swagger too, even though it's mostly a banworthy move. The niche with swagger was that it could potentially, due to rng, fuck up a (most probably) physically oriented pokemon to hit itself at +2 and deal enough damage for it to matter. As for the other defensive or shitatk pokemon, it was just gaining precious momentum while it deals low damage to itself. If it was the latter only, pretty sure swagger wouldnt be banworthy in itself, but thanks to the 1st situation too, it gets there. Yeah was just trying to say that, since haze + swagger kinda negates the first part I explained.

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Substitute is not banworthy.

Swagger is a shitty version Confuse Ray with better dmg. Swagger, as a move, is not banworthy.

 

If - and only if - something is banworthy, it would be the combination of Substitute + Swagger. A Swagger flat ban makes absolutely no sense since Swagger is only one part of the combo.

 

It doesn't matter if Multistrike moves are physical. The Substitute + Swagger combo is about capitalizing on the Substitute momentum. Multistrike moves threathen the Swagger user directly which mean Swagger, in this scenario, is used as nothing more than a move by itself. I think it is obvious hat Swagger without Substitute is shit, so Substitute + Swagger against Multistrike moves is also shit.

 

Let's not forget that the pokemons that can actually pull off a Substitute + Swagger strategy are sacrificing 2 moves for a 50/50 and rare are the players that are willing to do so. Isn't better for Manectric to Flamethrower an incoming Cradily (burn or crit can be nice) rather than risking placing a Substitute against who knows what threath and then going for that 45/55 chance of confusion?

 

Edited by gbwead
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33 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Substitute is not banworthy.

Swagger is a shitty version Confuse Ray with better dmg. Swagger, as a move, is not banworthy.

 

If - and only if - something is banworthy, it would be the combination of Substitute + Swagger. A Swagger flat ban makes absolutely no sense since Swagger is only one part of the combo.

 

It doesn't matter if Multistrike moves are physical. The Substitute + Swagger combo is about capitalizing on the Substitute momentum. Multistrike move threathen the Swagger user directly which mean Swagger, in this scenario, is used as nothing more than a move by itself. I think it is obvious hat Swagger without Substitute is shit, so Substitute + Swagger against Multistrike moves is also shit.

 

Let's not forget that the pokemons that can actually pull off a Substitute + Swagger strategy are sacrificing 2 moves for a 50/50 and rare are the players that are willing to do so. Isn't better for Manectric to Flamethrower an incoming Cradily (burn or crit can be nice) rather than risking placing a Substitute against who knows what threath and then going for that 45/55 chance of paralysis?

 

I mean, what happens when people start utilizing swagger more and more? Do you want a metagame where your win is decided on a coin flip half of the turns you try to skillfuly and precisely plan? I don't see substitute +  swagger being THE reason to ban swagger. Idk what your knowledge about later gens is, but lot worse strategies have been used to abuse swagger to the fullest, and that doesn't change the fact that swagger is still the root of the problem. Don't see why you people keep insisting on complex bans, just complicates things. Substitute is just a fill-in move to abuse the free turns you get thanks to swagger. Change substitute with any of the moves we have that give you an rng advantage, and you get the same result. Spikes, twave, roar/ww after those spikes, even setting up. What happens when people can't use sub due to the ban and resort to those moves? Free para which equals even more rng, free spikes which as I said, equals an unfair rng advantage, and free phazing for damage. What would happen if we had foul play? Another move that feeds off the aids that is swagger. It's the move that's the cancer of that kind of strategy, not the moves that abuse the advantage swagger gives. I know it has reasons, albeit few, not to be banned, but I don't think sub + swagger is the way to go at all.

 

Edit: Also, think about dedicated swagger users that create a team solely to abuse the move. You're right, sub/swagger does fill up half of the space for your moveset, so itd make it even easier to face a team with swagger, right? Tell me if you see yourself losing, and if you do, tell me it's not bs you lost to a dedicated swagger team

 

Edit2: 

That bolded part there; 

Hypothetical situation: You flip a coin. If you get heads, you hurt your enemy, if you get tails, your enemy cuts off your arm. Would you take those odds?

Even without a substitute, the odds of your enemy getting more fucked than you are still the same. I know jolteon is a focus here, but literally every pokemon bar mons that don't use TM's gets it. Idk what the discussion here is, but I thought it was how unhealthy the move is.

 

9 hours ago, gbwead said:

When comparing Confuse Ray to Swagger, something extremely important that haven't been mentionned yet is that Swagger has 90% accuracy unlike Confuse Ray. This implies that when a pokemon uses swagger the opposing pokemon has 45% chance of hitting himself instead of 50%. 45% is still an extremly uncompetitive ratio imo. Howver, using Swagger is not as easy as it may seem since only a pokemon behind a Substitute can truly benefit from using Swagger.

 

Edited by Spaintakula
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2 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

I mean, what happens when people start utilizing swagger more and more?

Are they? Imo, the only reason why Swagger Jolteon exists right now is to try to stop cancerlax. If nothing can stop it, I guess goign for a 50/50 coin flip is better than nothing.

 

4 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

Do you want a metagame where your win is decided on a coin flip half of the turns you try to skillfuly and precisely plan?

It is actually the stupidest coin flip ever tho. Why would a Sceptile run a Swagger set instead of a 4 moves coverage set? Is it better to Swagger a Cradily instead of using Focus Punch? Is it better to Swagger a Tentacruel instead of using EQ? Is that coin flip even worth it?

 

9 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

Substitute is just a fill-in move to abuse the free turns you get thanks to swagger. Change substitute with any of the moves we have that give you an rng advantage, and you get the same result. Spikes, twave, roar/ww after those spikes, even setting up. What happens when people can't use sub due to the ban and resort to those moves? Free para which equals even more rng, free spikes which as I said, equals an unfair rng advantage, and free phazing for damage.

If Substitute is jsut a fill-in move, then what is the difference between Swagger and Confuse Ray. Isn't important to protect yourself from a pokemon that just got a +2 atk boost? Your problem here seems more about confusion than Swagger itself and, if that is the case, you should look at 100% accuracy Confuse Ray before looking at 90% accuracy Swagger.

 

14 minutes ago, Spaintakula said:

What would happen if we had foul play? Another move that feeds off the aids that is swagger. It's the move that's the cancer of that kind of strategy, not the moves that abuse the advantage swagger gives. I know it has reasons, albeit few, not to be banned, but I don't think sub + swagger is the way to go at all.

Really? We should ban Swagger in PokeMMO because Foul Play exists in later gens? No offense, but this statement is beyond stupid. lub u tho

 

1 minute ago, BlackJovi said:

Let's make an experiment and have this guy ZaoLi fight every one who isn't inclined to ban swagger with his full sub + swagger team and see how results come out :D

You just said Sub-Swagger tho!!

 

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Just now, BlackJovi said:

So? Sub is the best move that goes in hand with swagger because it lets you take advantage incase the enemy hits itself, while still being hidden behind a sub, doesn't make sub the problem here

Is Swagger even viable without Sub? Why not use Confuse Ray or Flatter then?

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11 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Is Swagger even viable without Sub? Why not use Confuse Ray or Flatter then?

Because confuse ray or flatter dont hurt the enemy as much as swagger when they hit themselves. I mean, you could run something like swagger + protect and pull it off couldn't you? 

5 minutes ago, Viking said:

lol i'd not take the risk to bring a curse or cb lax to +2 or +4 attack.

 

I think people using that combo is fucked 50% of the time i assume

Well the thing is its having quite a lot success and catching on, if you see some of the ladder players like fipp, wiriketchup, lucas, even walpayer sometimes, They use it quite often and it almost always pays off, it's very ridicolous 

Edited by BlackJovi
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The problem with swagger and other strategy's that rely on RNG is that they benefit the worse player far greater than they benefit the better player. Swagger itself is not an overpowered move and also isn't very problematic in matchmaking since the move has a good chance to not help you and since matchmaking is played over a large amount of games it's not likely to help you greatly in the long run even if it is BS to play against. The problem is if this is to be used in a tournament setting where you could see bad players take out good players and fuck the bracket purely based on RNG, as well as being one of the most frustrating ways to lose.

 

Not trying to say RNG in a whole is a bad thing and should be removed, merely saying a strategy entirely revolving around RNG and nothing more should not be encouraged in any way. Saying it only works 45% of the time is not really a valid argument in a tournament setting since when its a BO1 I'm pretty sure most of the random idiots we see in matchmaking /  automated tournaments would welcome a 45% chance to win vs a far better player considering how much lower their chance to win would be without it

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16 minutes ago, Rendiz said:

The problem with swagger and other strategy's that rely on RNG is that they benefit the worse player far greater than they benefit the better player. Swagger itself is not an overpowered move and also isn't very problematic in matchmaking since the move has a good chance to not help you and since matchmaking is played over a large amount of games it's not likely to help you greatly in the long run even if it is BS to play against. The problem is if this is to be used in a tournament setting where you could see bad players take out good players and fuck the bracket purely based on RNG, as well as being one of the most frustrating ways to lose.

 

Not trying to say RNG in a whole is a bad thing and should be removed, merely saying a strategy entirely revolving around RNG and nothing more should not be encouraged in any way. Saying it only works 45% of the time is not really a valid argument in a tournament setting since when its a BO1 I'm pretty sure most of the random idiots we see in matchmaking /  automated tournaments would welcome a 45% chance to win vs a far better player considering how much lower their chance to win would be without it

This and exactly this. We wouldn't be having this conversation if SubSwagger rewarded skill, but it doesn't, it rewards RNG (sorry to hate on your team name gbwead, I understand now why you're defending this so much now). 

 

And it doesn't matter if SubSwagger is banned or if Swagger is banned, a part or all of that combo needs to go, and at the least it needs to be removed from OU where it has its greatest effect right now. It's hard to tell if the toxic Swagger will ever leak into other tiers (it already has in the past), but I guess that may just be an argument for another day. Until then, we've stated our case and the tier council is aware. I hope they discuss this issue and come to a sensible solution. @Gunthug has already notified us this topic has been brought up. 

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1 hour ago, gbwead said:

Are they? Imo, the only reason why Swagger Jolteon exists right now is to try to stop cancerlax. If nothing can stop it, I guess goign for a 50/50 coin flip is better than nothing.

Doesn't change the fact that it's a strategy that relies purely on luck. Which is what I was talking about

 

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

It is actually the stupidest coin flip ever tho. Why would a Sceptile run a Swagger set instead of a 4 moves coverage set? Is it better to Swagger a Cradily instead of using Focus Punch? Is it better to Swagger a Tentacruel instead of using EQ? Is that coin flip even worth it?

Actually, I believe that kind of thinking is really unhealthy. You're questioning movesets and their practice making it look like every pokemon has only one usable moveset that it should always run. As I said, swagger is a toxic strategy, unhealthy, it doesn't need reasoning on "why would you even run it", mostly because it's self-explainable and running it reduces the skill needed to win greatly.

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

 

If Substitute is jsut a fill-in move, then what is the difference between Swagger and Confuse Ray. Isn't important to protect yourself from a pokemon that just got a +2 atk boost? Your problem here seems more about confusion than Swagger itself and, if that is the case, you should look at 100% accuracy Confuse Ray before looking at 90% accuracy Swagger.

Uhhh, 10% less accuracy for a +2 boost that can fuck up anything with a decent-to-high attack stat, I'd take that.

Would you use quick attack if extremespeed was 90% accuracy? I think not.

Also, here's a previous statement that might explain the quote above:

4 hours ago, Spaintakula said:

It's a double edged sword, that's all there is to it, not counting the complete rng bs it gives. Why would you run swagger with a haze user when you can simply run confuse ray and not bother with more moves. I'm just trying out to weed out the not-so-good sides of swagger too, even though it's mostly a banworthy move. The niche with swagger was that it could potentially, due to rng, fuck up a (most probably) physically oriented pokemon to hit itself at +2 and deal enough damage for it to matter. As for the other defensive or shitatk pokemon, it was just gaining precious momentum while it deals low damage to itself. If it was the latter only, pretty sure swagger wouldnt be banworthy in itself, but thanks to the 1st situation too, it gets there.

^That right there is me explaing how both of those moves are different. Confuse ray only gains needed momentum as a confusion status without any boosts. Also, another big reason for not being the same is the fact that Confuse ray can only be learned by a handful of pokemon, while swagger can be learned by anything. Kinda like how twave + cray is aids but not available to most unless detailed teambuilding which includes you making that your win condition. I hope you see the difference

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

 

Really? We should ban Swagger in PokeMMO because Foul Play exists in later gens? No offense, but this statement is beyond stupid. lub u tho

It wasn't a statement, my bad if it looked like that, I was just comparing, nowhere did I intend do imply swagger should be banned because of a reason that isn't even there.

1 hour ago, gbwead said:

 

You just said Sub-Swagger tho!!

 

I get your points, but I really don't think you're looking at this from the way it should be looked at. It's a luck mechanic which requires almost no skill to pull off with great rewards. Yes, it can fuck you up too, but as I said, the benefit from it fills in for someone who likes that kind of shit idk.

 

 

 

 

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Let's avoid personnal shit jokes - since no one in team RNG even owns a Swagger Jolteon or anything similar - and go back to this discussion that imo looks like nothing more than a decoy from the cancerlax issue. Cancerlax is a priority, not Swagger. Swagger or a part of the Sub/Swagger combo getting banned "right now" is extremely unlikely; the apparition of Jolteon Swagger seems directly related to Cancerlax skilless dominance in OU. If Snorlax gets banned, we would have to observe how the meta evolves before even considering other bans.

 

If you guys want a flat ban for Swagger or Sub/Swagger, it is imperative to show that Jolteon is not the only abuser of this mechanic. The fact that this mechanic depends solely on luck doesn't make it banworthy. Are we going to ban Zap Cannon too? Sceptile, Aerodactly, Miltank, Tauros, Absol, why would these pokemons want to drop 2 moves for a 45/55 uncompetitive coin flip? Imo, uncompetitive coin flips are only worth running in awful metas like our OU right now. Fighting fire with fire. Fighting uncompetitive Snorlax with uncompetitive Jolteon. 

 

My "why would you even run it" argument is just me trying to put in perspective the possibility of losing to skilless noob. If a noob runs Sub + Swagger Sceptile and wins against a decent player whose Tentacruel got rekd by confusion, does it even matter? If the Sceptile was running a standard wall breaking set, it would have just EQ the Tentacruel and kill it. Why would anyone want to go from a 100% chance of winning to a 45% chance of winning? It makes no sense. If anyone runs a Swagger + Substitute Sceptile against you, the best to do is to thank him for increasing your win condition.

 

I get that Tentacruel vs Sceptile is an overly specific example that surely might not apply to all situations. However, the following question remains: on what pokemon is Sub/Swagger worth running? What is the scenario in which playing uncompetitive Sub/Swagger increases your win condition? Jolteon has nearly no chance to beat Snorlax unless parahax or choice spec. By playing Sub/Swagger, Jolteon doesn't lose any coverage move and increases its win condition from nearly 0% to over 45% against Snorlax. This is great for Jolteon. Is there another pokemon that benefit from Sub/Swagger in a similar way? Why would a Walrein try to beat a Lapras with Sub/Swagger when it could simply pressure it with HP electric? Should Aggron start running Sunny Day + Solar Beam or Metal Sound + HP grass just to counter Quagsire? Aggron could do that, but at what cost? Would Aggron be remotely viable in the rest of the tier with such a shitty moveset? I agree that Swagger is uncompetitive, but something uncompetitive is not banworthy if it is just bad. Dunsparce can be uncompetitive, but it is way too bad for its uncompetitiveness to be exploitable.

 

All I am asking is for some realistic examples of how Swagger or Sub/Swagger could be broken on another pokemon beside Jolteon. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Let's avoid personnal shit jokes - since no one in team RNG even owns a Swagger Jolteon or anything similar

 

... and go back to this discussion that imo looks like nothing more than a decoy from the cancerlax issue. 

 

If you guys want a flat ban for Swagger or Sub/Swagger, it is imperative to show that Jolteon is not the only abuser of this mechanic. 

 

My "why would you even run it" argument is just me trying to put in perspective the possibility of losing to skilless noob. 

 

Ok @gbwead, you've offiically triggered me.

 

  1. I'm not accusing you or your teammates of using the SubSwagger strategy, nor am I attacking your team whom I have a lot of respect for. It was a mere joke because I honestly have no clue why you are defending a strategy like this. So please, don't be so defensive. 
  2. The OU metagame IMO has two major issues, one being Snorlax and determining whether that is uncompetitive, unhealthy, or neither. That is an ongoing conversation that really has ran its course with the community and is now on the tier council to decide upon. Quit blaming the community for distracting from a decision that the council is supposed to make. You have a date set for a TS meeting to talk it out, so how are we taking the emphasis away from Snorlax at all? The plan is already in place to figure out what to do with it. We are merely bringing up another issue in the OU metagame and that is a hax strategy that is benefiting poor play to get unskilled wins. 
  3. I have given examples, but without proof of use in the tier it's really hard to explain. SubSwagger Sceptile with Giga Drain or Leaf Blade/Giga Drain with HP Ice can break any physical attacker in the UU metagame (excluding faster Swellow) without having to sacrifice coverage. The decision between HP Ice and HP Fire is no longer needed when you can hax a Scizor with SubSwagger. Any other example can be used similarly, but again, none are currently in practice. A flat ban would simply serve as an answer to the brokenness of SubSwagger in OU and to prevent this toxic strategy from reaching other tiers. It has been used successfully in UU in the past, and yes I do remember MasterRoshi haxing his way through tournaments. I was a victim of that set-up once before. The emphasis though is on Jolteon merely because it is currently the only user of this strategy. Unfortunately, SubSwagger can be used on nearly anything, it doesn't matter if it may or may not be the best option for that pokemon, it's just the mere fact that it can and is used. 
  4. And the very fact that we are having this conversation is simply because it's not us that are using this technique, but rather "unskilled noobs". When players like KingBowser or Frags are at risk to losing to absolute randoms because their team was broken by SubSwagger, you know you have a problem in the tier. 

 

 

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@DoubleJ

 

You guys are pushing for the Swagger ban as if it needs to happen as soon as possible. I am simply explaining why this should not happen anytime soon. Then if you guys see it as me starting a debate, complicating things and defending an uncompetitive strategy, it still won't change the fact that we need MORE for such a ban to happen. Speculating about what will happen in other tiers is really not enough to justify a complete flat ban imo.
 

Spoiler
8 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

I think you're bogging yourself down in an attempt to debate.

5 hours ago, Spaintakula said:

 Don't see why you people keep insisting on complex bans, just complicates things.

37 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

I honestly have no clue why you are defending a strategy like this.

 

 

Furthermore, for a ban to happen, shouldn't we at least agree on what actually needs to be banned. Jolteon banned, Complex ban Swagger on Jolteon, Flat ban Swagger, allow Swagger as long as it is not used in conjonction with Substitute, what is the right approach? Why ask for a discussion thread if you guys already made the decision?

 

Edited by gbwead
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2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

@DoubleJ

 

You guys are pushing for the Swagger as if it needs to happen as soon as possible. I am simply explaining why this should not happen anytime soon. Then if you guys see it as me starting a debate, complicating things and defending an uncompetitive strategy, it still won't change the fact that we need MORE for such a ban to happen. Speculating about what will happen in other tiers is really not enough to justify a complete flat ban imo.
 

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Furthermore, for a ban to happen, shouldn't we at least agree on what actually needs to be banned. Jolteon banned, Complex ban Swagger on Jolteon, Flat ban Swagger, allow Swagger as long as it is not used in conjonction with Substitute, what is the right approach? Why ask for a discussion thread if you guys already made the decision?

 

I think you forget that we are the community, this is a "request thread", and you wear the badge of a tier council member. What we do here is request that a discussion thread be opened. We need little more than a "ok" or simply acknowledgement that we have presented a worthwhile complaint. @Gunthug had already given that and more:

 

22 hours ago, Gunthug said:

It's not a complex ban, you can flat ban a move. It would only be a complex ban if, say, swagger was banned on Jolteon alone.

 

Semantics aside, I think we're looking into it

It's not the role of the community to determine what happens with a tier. It's the role of the community to propose issues with the tier and then the tier council takes action and make a decision. That decision could be to do nothing, make a change, or investigate further. 

 

If a discussion thread opens regarding Sub + Swagger, I would be more than happy to discuss even further, but until then we are already just going in circles. This is an issue that I feel strongly about, as does a few other community members as seen here. We as competitive players do not wish to play in a tier that contains a viable strategy that garners wins based on hax and hax alone. It doesn't promote competitiveness within the game and is flat unhealthy and uncompetitive.

 

A flat ban vs complex ban is something that tier council will ultimately need to decide upon. A complex ban has never been favored by the tier council or developers in this game because of the potential flood gate associated with it, and thus I am more in favor of a complete flat ban of the move Swagger in its entirety.  

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Can you guys stop trying to ban everything because it is "skill-less"? I mean cmon this moveset is not that popular and we all know its main purpose is to defeat snorlax. Secondly there is no "noob" that will use this tactic and win a tournement wtf... Anyone who use this tactic is at least an average player and he probably learned this shit combo thx to you guys. Pokemon is always about 10% luck you may lose because of a miss, a crit, or a paralize too you will rage as much as losing to confusion. You lose because of rng deal with it better luck next time but sub swagger is not banworthy at all it has many counters unlike snorlax who can bypass his counters. Lets make a decision about fatass then maby talk about this sub swagger jolteon which will probably become even more uncommon if lax gets the ban.

Edited by Thunderprime
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Swagger leads to luck based situations what is uncompetitive by definition

 

Imo if u use swagger vs a lax u can get ur self rekt if it doesnt hit itself but vs a pory its a win/win situation (if it hits itself its ez damage if not pory moves aint boosted) same w chansey, gardevoir, venusaur etc

 

Pd no double edge/facade pory around these days lmao

 

Pd2 #BanSwagger #FreeLax

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