OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[DrButler]

3 hours ago, Moetal said:

I know update is coming up soon and all, but I think we need to talk about Venusaur.

 

With the 75 power giga, growth/giga drain/sludge/hp fire sets are only slowed by Tentacruel. There is only one check, and no real counters. Recently I also had the joy of facing a salac one. I can assure you it was not pretty.

you could pair your umbreon with crobat, which stops venu pretty reliably. they both synergize well in general.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2017 by DrButler

[notmudkip0]

42 minutes ago, DrButler said:

you could pair your umbreon with crobat, which stops venu pretty reliably. they both synergize well in general.

I don't think a healthy metagame should almost force you to use lower tier pokemon to counter something.

[razimove]

2 hours ago, notmudkip0 said:

I don't think a healthy metagame should almost force you to use lower tier pokemon to counter something.

Crobat is very strong in OU no matter what, give him calm nature and superfang/taunt/heatwave/+1 and you're gucci. Use him as a pseudo wall/support, just like people used to use haunter to stop chansey.

Banded metagross can also threaten venusaur, alakazam aswell, gyarados with taunt aswell, zard, typh are all safe switches in. Zam not so much but do-able if you play trick-zam. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by redspawn

[Munya]

5 hours ago, notmudkip0 said:

I don't think a healthy metagame should almost force you to use lower tier pokemon to counter something.

I don't know if that is necessarily an issue, I feel like if it were things would never move up out of the lower tiers.

 

I'm not saying venu is not a problem because I don't honestly know, but just the specific not having to use a pokemon in a lower tier to counter something in a higher tier thing.

[notmudkip0]

Just now, Munya said:

I don't know if that is necessarily an issue, I feel like if it were things would never move up out of the lower tiers.

 

I'm not saying venu is not a problem because I don't honestly know, but just the specific not having to use a pokemon in a lower tier to counter something in a higher tier thing.

Thing is that Tentacruel already moved up, but now Crobat is seeing use to combat Venusaur. Venu has tools to wear down many teams, and a well timed sleep powder can stop a wouldbe check or counter.

 

2 hours ago, redspawn said:

alakazam aswell, gyarados with taunt aswell, zard, typh are all safe switches in

None of these like a strong sludge bomb and none can keep switching in.

 

2 hours ago, redspawn said:

Banded metagross can also threaten venusaur

sleep powder and HP fire are troublesome

[RysPicz]

Sure, crobat is really good on it's own- combats Heracross, Venusaur, can deal with Skarm and Forret etc. But let's be honest, it's starting to see more usage in OU because of Venusaur, same way Tenta did. People are trying to fight a very centralizing pokemon which singlehandely shits on stall in our meta, Tenta has failed as Venus started running EQ and their Giga Drain is not resisted, so it still did a shitlot of damage. Not to mention Tenta is suspectible to spikes.

 

Im on the side with Moe here even though I practically do not play stall, Venu probably deserves a discussion.

[pachima]

Pokemmo might be the only game where venusaur is being suspected to ubers. KEK

Only the sleep powder can be annoying to deal with, and to a point where I believe it could be considered unhealthy for the metagame, otherwise, nah.

[KOHHuiXIN]

2 hours ago, notmudkip0 said:

Thing is that Tentacruel already moved up, but now Crobat is seeing use to combat Venusaur. Venu has tools to wear down many teams, and a well timed sleep powder can stop a wouldbe check or counter.

 

None of these like a strong sludge bomb and none can keep switching in.

 

sleep powder and HP fire are troublesome

There is a 4 move syndrome argument to be made here, what makes venusaur broken is growth + 3, if theres sludge, hp fire and giga then metagross or tentacruel can threaten, if sleep powder over sludge, then not only is accuracy a factor, fire types such as charizard and arcanine can sit comfortably. If earthquake is run to take out tentacruel or a move replaces HP fire, then spdef skarmory can wall easily too. Alakazam or espeon can be reliable enough revenge killers as venusaur isn't getting faster or anything so it has to run from them preventing a steamroll. Lastly of all, I feel crobat is a great check to venusaur, and despite the lower usage has many coverage moves and good speed can act as more than just a single check to an over centralising venusaur.

[DrButler]

3 hours ago, notmudkip0 said:

Thing is that Tentacruel already moved up, but now Crobat is seeing use to combat Venusaur.

ever since lax has gone and swift bands became a thing cro was viable and, ofc that depends on opinions, did fairly good.

 

yes, it can handle venusaur, but it also handled chansey, can handle umbreon, literally every single grass mon in our current ou meta, if you take something else as sleep fodder for breloom. it handles skarm + forre and superfang + heatwave/sludge threatens quite a bunch of mons. hera cant really harm it unless rockslide, but thats easy to work around. it forces pory and milo to either recover up and lose momentum or risk being poisoned. even if you invest into it being bulky and/or having a bit of SpA, theres enough speed to move right after swift users, aero and jolt.

 

cro is good, but it has been for a while, so if people realised that it does more than stopping venu earlier it might have been seen more often in the past / venu might have seen less usage.

 

 

dont really think we need a discussion, because venu can 6:0 full wallero tho. scout its set and work around it, which you should be able to, otherwise you didnt react to its usage accordingly.

[razimove]

1 hour ago, DrButler said:

ever since lax has gone and swift bands became a thing cro was viable and, ofc that depends on opinions, did fairly good.

 

yes, it can handle venusaur, but it also handled chansey, can handle umbreon, literally every single grass mon in our current ou meta, if you take something else as sleep fodder for breloom. it handles skarm + forre and superfang + heatwave/sludge threatens quite a bunch of mons. hera cant really harm it unless rockslide, but thats easy to work around. it forces pory and milo to either recover up and lose momentum or risk being poisoned. even if you invest into it being bulky and/or having a bit of SpA, theres enough speed to move right after swift users, aero and jolt.

 

cro is good, but it has been for a while, so if people realised that it does more than stopping venu earlier it might have been seen more often in the past / venu might have seen less usage.

 

 

dont really think we need a discussion, because venu can 6:0 full wallero tho. scout its set and work around it, which you should be able to, otherwise you didnt react to its usage accordingly.

I agree with you. To add to what you said, sub+endeavor sceptile counters him so well aswell, not only him, but pretty much most walls if done properly.

[RysPicz]

7 hours ago, DrButler said:

because venu can 6:0 full wallero tho. scout its set and work around it, which you should be able to, otherwise you didnt react to its usage accordingly.

And this is the exact reason why Venu should be at least suspected- if a single poke absolutely disables a certain playstyle then something is really wrong.

[Moetal]

The problem is that Venusaur is naturally bulky, it can come in multiple times to set up growth or hit its incoming "checks". Anything that can scare it does not enjoy getting hit by an appropriate move, anything that doesn't is just setup fodder. And those do scare it can't guarantee it will stay in. With growth, giga heals stupid amount back, and is even more ridiculous at overgrowth range. 

[HowLXG]

7 hours ago, redspawn said:

sub+endeavor sceptile counters him so well aswell

0 SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sceptile: 116-140 (80 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

From the smogon definition of counter: Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

 

 

About the original Venusaur topic: 
I think Venusaur is definitely a S+ tier pokemon in our current OU metagame, I've been using a Calm (252HP\252Spdef) Growth \ Synthesis \ Giga Drain \ HP Fire set recently and it absolutely destroys stall teams, being able to defeat prominent defensive threats like Milotic, Porygon2, Umbreon, Weezing, (most weezings without haze become free setup fodder for this venusaur set, thanks to synthesis), Skarmory, Forretress and Slowbro.

Even fire types that would resist both of it's offensive moves don't really want to switch into a STAB sludge bomb.

 

Considering other venusaur sets, the best counters I can find think of would be a defensive Gardevoir, Tentacruel (though it can't really do much against defensive venus and loses to earthquake sets), a bulky taunt Gyarados, a specially defensive Arcanine, Crobat or Espeon. Alakazam also forces it out, because no matter the Venusaur set, it doesn't want to eat a STAB Psychic from zam.

 

To conclude, I don't really think Venusaur is banworthy because of how hard it beats stall, but because of how versatile and efficient it can be on nearly every team.

Edited September 25, 2017 by HowLXG
sorry for bad englando

[Maelstrom]

Idk, I can deal with it without tentacruel and crobat most of the time. It's still annoying af tho, but I am more concerned about breloom, that shit

forces me to run specific stuff to stop it to the point I started to test gimmicks just for it, and it's not even a high usage mon. Well, it won't worth

a discussion due to not being at high usage anyway, so I will just end it here.

 

I don't really have an opinion about venusaur tbh besides what I stated above.

[Moetal]

@Maelstrom pm me your team

[DrButler]

1 hour ago, RysPicz said:

And this is the exact reason why Venu should be at least suspected- if a single poke absolutely disables a certain playstyle then something is really wrong.

venu doesnt absolutely disable stall tho. if your whole team loses to growth venu, you probably ran six mons, which couldnt do anything to it, which then again is the result poor teambuilding, considering venu sits at a whopping 32% usage. if you dont have anything that stops gyara from sweeping your whole team to begin with or you lost your check / counter against it, that doesnt mean gyara needs a discussion.

 

there is mons that easily handle venu, but if you dont run them or have them die before you finished off venu that doesnt mean venu is op. and those mons are viable in stall teams, so the "venu completely denies stall" isnt viable here.

 

1 hour ago, Moetal said:

The problem is that Venusaur is naturally bulky, it can come in multiple times to set up growth or hit its incoming "checks". Anything that can scare it does not enjoy getting hit by an appropriate move, anything that doesn't is just setup fodder.  With growth, giga heals stupid amount back, and is even more ridiculous at overgrowth range. 

thats what sweepers do. they switch in when they´re in a low risk situation to set up or hit incoming mons. if they do so over and over again however, you are getting exploited for a hole in your team / your opponent plays to his win condition, which again means you didnt really have an eye on how to handle venu when building your team.

 

1 hour ago, Moetal said:

And those do scare it can't guarantee it will stay in.

we should have arena trap on every pokemon.

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by DrButler

[Maelstrom]

11 minutes ago, Moetal said:

@Maelstrom pm me your team

Done, don't expect much tho.

[LifeStyle]

Because building cores and making plays is too hard

Ban Medicham while you're at it

[razimove]

23 minutes ago, LifeStyle said:

Because building cores and making plays is too hard

Ban Medicham while you're at it

what you saying? Just bring snorlax and chansey back so venusaur becomes less of a problem to deal with... duh, while you're at it, do you know a good venusaur check? Salamence mixed.

[DiDi]

If venu is a problem for you, you need to have more than 6 mons avaible for you to use

[pachima]

First sceptile, then salamence.

Poor soul, doesn´t know what sludge bomb is.

[HowLXG]

5 minutes ago, pachima said:

First sceptile, then salamence.

Poor soul, doesn´t know what sludge bomb is.

Hp ice Venu ez

[Moetal]

1 hour ago, LifeStyle said:

Because building cores and making plays is too hard

Ban Medicham while you're at it

Venusaur switch into let's say your Milotics. What do you do?

[DaftCoolio]

29 minutes ago, Moetal said:

Venusaur switch into let's say your Milotics. What do you do?

Run mirror coat for the easiest gg of your life

[Moetal]

Just now, DaftCoolio said:

Run mirror coat for the easiest gg of your life

What if it knows you have mirror coat and haze? What if it growth on your mirror coat turn and giga you on your haze turn?