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OU Tier Discussion Request Thread


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4 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Is there any reason to unban it? 

In my opinion, the goal of tiering is to keep bans to a minimum. Wobbufet, while clearly a cancerous Pokemon, was banned initially for being absolutely broken and having no method of switching when trapped by another Wobbufet. Now, with the implementation of upper gen mechanics, Wobbufet can switch from another Wobbufett avoiding a never ending stall. 

 

Wobbu has clear weaknesses to Toxic, which is found throughout the OU metagame, and is easily handled by other stall based Pokemon like Chansey, Milotic, Arcanine, and Forretress which are extremely popular right now and all commonly carry Toxic. Wobbu finds its effectiveness by trapping Choice users and spamming either Counter or Mirror Coat for a quick kill. The presence of something to remove Choice users will effectively improve stall and promote use of more versatile offense, such as Taunt + set-up. 

 

Wobbu has an incredible amount of bulk, but it is slow and it can lose. With such a limited move pool, it needs Support to be effective throughout a match unless its only goal is to remove a CB user. 

 

I feel there is no reason at this time to continue to enforce the Wobbu ban and it should be tested in the OU metagame. It's a new type of weapon that could change the game for good, or maybe not, but hey, that's what a test is good for. 

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3 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

In my opinion, the goal of tiering is to keep bans to a minimum. Wobbufet, while clearly a cancerous Pokemon, was banned initially for being absolutely broken and having no method of switching when trapped by another Wobbufet. Now, with the implementation of upper gen mechanics, Wobbufet can switch from another Wobbufett avoiding a never ending stall. 

 

Wobbu has clear weaknesses to Toxic, which is found throughout the OU metagame, and is easily handled by other stall based Pokemon like Chansey, Milotic, Arcanine, and Forretress which are extremely popular right now and all commonly carry Toxic. Wobbu finds its effectiveness by trapping Choice users and spamming either Counter or Mirror Coat for a quick kill. The presence of something to remove Choice users will effectively improve stall and promote use of more versatile offense, such as Taunt + set-up. 

 

Wobbu has an incredible amount of bulk, but it is slow and it can lose. With such a limited move pool, it needs Support to be effective throughout a match unless its only goal is to remove a CB user. 

 

I feel there is no reason at this time to continue to enforce the Wobbu ban and it should be tested in the OU metagame. It's a new type of weapon that could change the game for good, or maybe not, but hey, that's what a test is good for. 

Keeping bans to a minimum is a policy that works forwards, not backwards. Therefore that doesn't really apply retroactively. The standard for retesting something that has already been deemed broken is pretty high, as you know, and usually only happens when something is introduced that changes the meta game fundamentally. We don't have that with wobbu (unless youre advocating that shed hull is somehow a solution, which is preposterous). Even glossing over all that, your reasoning isn't great. Toxic users that you listed? None of them can come in on wobbuffet unless it's already performed it's job, at which point you're too late. So in my opinion wobbu is right where it needs to be, and I'd need a hell of a lot stronger argument (or i dk a full gen 4 roster) to be convinced it should be revisited. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Keeping bans to a minimum is a policy that works forwards, not backwards. Therefore that doesn't really apply retroactively. The standard for retesting something that has already been deemed broken is pretty high, as you know, and usually only happens when something is introduced that changes the meta game fundamentally. We don't have that with wobbu (unless youre advocating that shed hull is somehow a solution, which is preposterous). Even glossing over all that, your reasoning isn't great. Toxic users that you listed? None of them can come in on wobbuffet unless it's already performed it's job, at which point you're too late. So in my opinion wobbu is right where it needs to be, and I'd need a hell of a lot stronger argument (or i dk a full gen 4 roster) to be convinced it should be revisited. 

 

 

Whats in gen4 that nerfs wobo? Dont get me wrong i agree with you, the less cancer the better, but im curious.

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Just now, codylramey said:

Whats in gen4 that nerfs wobo? Dont get me wrong i agree with you, the less cancer the better, but im curious.

Just a general power creep, not saying it would actually be deemed healthy but it's enough of a shake up to at least argue for a test 

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34 minutes ago, Gunthug said:

Keeping bans to a minimum is a policy that works forwards, not backwards. Therefore that doesn't really apply retroactively. The standard for retesting something that has already been deemed broken is pretty high, as you know, and usually only happens when something is introduced that changes the meta game fundamentally. We don't have that with wobbu (unless youre advocating that shed hull is somehow a solution, which is preposterous). Even glossing over all that, your reasoning isn't great. Toxic users that you listed? None of them can come in on wobbuffet unless it's already performed it's job, at which point you're too late. So in my opinion wobbu is right where it needs to be, and I'd need a hell of a lot stronger argument (or i dk a full gen 4 roster) to be convinced it should be revisited. 

 

 

To be fair, Wobbufet has never been seen in any rendition of PokeMMO OU (at least to my knowledge). It has always been auto-banned on the premise that it could lead to a never ending stall war with another Wobbu, but as stated that has since been fixed. 

 

With the physical/special split, the introduction of Choice Band, the introduction of Hoenn, the introduction of Choice Specs/Scarf/LifeOrb, the aforementioned Shed Hull, and our recent stat boosts, the game has certainly changed. Are we truly that convinced that Wobbu is inherently broken? How are we ever going to retroactively unban something if we aren't even willing to test a pokemon like Wobbu?

Edited by DoubleJ
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2 minutes ago, gbwead said:

Unbanning Wobbufet would invalidate pretty much all the OU bans that we had. We would end up we a full reset which is not something I am looking forward.

Why? Justification for unbanning (or rather testing) Wobbu has nothing to do with the other Ubers. 

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4 hours ago, DoubleJ said:

In my opinion, the goal of tiering is to keep bans to a minimum. Wobbufet, while clearly a cancerous Pokemon, was banned initially for being absolutely broken and having no method of switching when trapped by another Wobbufet. Now, with the implementation of upper gen mechanics, Wobbufet can switch from another Wobbufett avoiding a never ending stall. 

 

Wobbu has clear weaknesses to Toxic, which is found throughout the OU metagame, and is easily handled by other stall based Pokemon like Chansey, Milotic, Arcanine, and Forretress which are extremely popular right now and all commonly carry Toxic. Wobbu finds its effectiveness by trapping Choice users and spamming either Counter or Mirror Coat for a quick kill. The presence of something to remove Choice users will effectively improve stall and promote use of more versatile offense, such as Taunt + set-up. 

 

Wobbu has an incredible amount of bulk, but it is slow and it can lose. With such a limited move pool, it needs Support to be effective throughout a match unless its only goal is to remove a CB user. 

 

I feel there is no reason at this time to continue to enforce the Wobbu ban and it should be tested in the OU metagame. It's a new type of weapon that could change the game for good, or maybe not, but hey, that's what a test is good for. 

the reasoning you've given for the initial wobbuffet banning is pretty off the mark.

 

Wobbu was not initially banned because you can't switch out when trapped by another wobb. In fact, when Wobbuffet first came out, Shadow Tag didn't even work, and it got insta-banned by everyone simply because it was banned in Gen 3. Ofc, this was pre-tier council. By the time Shadow Tag did work, I'm pretty sure there were also the Struggle mechanics that made it so Struggle took away 25% of your health, so even then, it wasn't that big an issue, and shortly after that future gen Shadow Tag was added so you COULD switch out in Wobbu v Wobbu. The issue with Wobbuffet causing infinite stalls was pretty much never a concern as to why it was banned. Of course, there's also a reason why for a year + since future-gen Shadow Tag was added, bringing down Wobbuffet was never a serious discussion point.

 

Also, your argument for bringing down Wobbuffet doesn't seem to consider what makes Wobbuffet effective, and by extension, terribly obnoxious. I mean, it is "weak to toxic", but Toxic has been around and used forever. Maybe it's used slightly more now, but it's not like some new addition that massively hits Wobbuffet. In fact, with Snorlax gone, having Chansey as the most used pokemon, a mon that can serve as an effective cleric actually helps Wobbuffet quite a bit. Not to mention that Toxicing Wobbuffet isn't actually that free. It can be pretty obvious when you're gonna toxic a Wobbuffet, and it can be exploited by Encore. While that strategy isn't as potent in this meta, since we lack Baton Pass to really capitalize on a "free turn", you can still, say, get your Guts Hera a free status, AND a super free switchin to punish the enemy.

 

You also say Wobbu finds itself most effective in trapping Choice users, but if anything, that only argues Wobbu is probably better in this meta than he has been before, given the greater variety of Banded pokemon running around.

 

You also say Wobbuffet needs support to be effective, but I don't understand what you mean by that. As a trapper, Wobbuffet is one of the pokemon that flourishes by PROVIDING the support, trapping threats that your team has trouble with and dispatching them easily. Once it gets in on a favorable matchup, that's it. Wobbuffet doesn't need support throughout the match, it just needs to annihilate whatever threat you don't want to deal with. It is the support.

 

I absolutely, without a doubt believe Wobbuffet is super cancer. Not so much Wobbu himself, but Shadow Tag in singles is absurd. When Shadow Tag gets banned in Gen 6, and Mega Gengar almost got banned from Ubers for Shadow Tag, the ability is just silly. The only generation where Shadow Tag Wobbuffet isn't effectively banned is Gen 5, where better matchups make the other trappers (Dugtrio+Gothitelle) more favored, the damage dealt by enemies significantly higher (weather boosted choice attacks hurt, and Wobbu doesn't resist Fire/Water moves), and Encore got a significant nerf to only last 3 turns (although, this change is actually in pokemmo, but I'm not sure it matters as much).

 

Shadow Tag is just too effective. Wobbuffet is incredibly limited and relatively predictable, but it doesn't matter, because it has all the tools it needs to do its' job and the enemy can't switch out once it is in. When we live in a world where Trapinch is almost OU by usage because Arena Trap is that good, Wobbuffet reigns above all.

 

Also, Shed Hull is a really bad argument imo. If you're running Shed Hull on your offensive pokemon instead of a Band or something because of Wobbuffet, the wobbu user has already won.

 

Honestly, you could make a decent argument Wobbuffet is not broken. It doesn't need much more than what it has, but it is still fairly limited, it doesn't have any Baton Pass support for super easy switchins, or teammates that can exploit Encore turns for free setup to pass to major threats. There's also the Encore nerf, which has been implemented forever, and really sucks for Wobbu. It doesn't have the option of Custap that it does in later gens, which lets it Destiny Bond + Encore before it falls. But even in a world where Wobbuffet isn't broken, there's no doubt in my mind that it will remain uncompetitive. Shadow Tag is just that lethal. It doesn't feel good to play against due to the limited counterplay, but is still ridiculously potent for how straightforward it is.

 

Also this:

16 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

How are we ever going to retroactively unban something if we aren't even willing to test a pokemon like Wobbu?

This is kinda absurd, cmon. There's been tons of tier resets, re-tests, etc. etc. before. Actually, Wobbuffet is the only pokemon in all of PokeMMO to never have any time in OU, everything else has had several chances. Saying that retroactive unbans won't happen because people aren't willing to test the only pokemon which has managed to keep a 100% ban uptime in all of PokeMMO is just...wrong.

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27 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Why? Justification for unbanning (or rather testing) Wobbu has nothing to do with the other Ubers. 

That is not how tiering works. We can't make these kinds of assumptions.

Edited by gbwead
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Just now, gbwead said:

That is now how tiering works. We can't make these kind of assumptions.

Then apparently I just simply don't know how the PokeMMO Tier Council "tiers". Will you ever release the official tiering protocol, or at least an updated version?

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5 minutes ago, Senile said:

=(

Senile be quiet. You're missing the point that I'm trying to make, which is to assess how, and if, the tier council reconsiders prior bans. 

 

EDIT: Let me rephrase that. I mean to assess how the tier council responds to questions regarding unbanning a pokemon. 

Edited by DoubleJ
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16 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

Then apparently I just simply don't know how the PokeMMO Tier Council "tiers". Will you ever release the official tiering protocol, or at least an updated version?

Dugtrio, Gengar, Blissey and Snorlax got ban primarly for being unhealthy. Unhealthiness is relative to the specific metagames in which these ubers were. If we add Wobbufet to these metagames, perhaps these pokemons would no longer be unhealthy. You also mentionned that Wobbufet is a great way to counter play Choice Banders. Salamence, Dragonite and Tyranitar are all pretty decent Choice Banders to my knowledge which mean they would potentially be limited by Wobbufet's presence in OU.

 

Edit: In my previous post, I typed "this is now how tiering works" instead of "this is not how tiering works". My bad.

Edited by gbwead
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Just now, gbwead said:

Dugtrio, Gengar, Blissey and Snorlax got ban primarly for being unhealthy. Unhealthiness is relative to the specific metagames in which these ubers were. If we had Wobbufet to these metagames, perhaps these pokemons would no longer be unhealthy. You also mentionned that Wobbufet is great way to counter play Choice Banders. Salamence, Dragonite and Tyranitar are all pretty decent Choice Banders to my knowledge which mean they would potentially be limited of Wobbufet presence in OU.

Oh gosh.... balance?

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1 minute ago, DoubleJ said:

Oh gosh.... balance?

I don't believe that would be the case, but there is always a chance which leads to a degree of uncertainty regarding prior bans. For consistency reasons, a full reset would be mandatory and this is not worth it.

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Just now, DoubleJ said:

So in summary, to consider one unban we must consider them all through a slippery slope of cause and effect that could in the end provide balance and a better, or worse, metagame. 

Ya, we need to have a very very good reason to go through such a long test that could damage the UU and NU tiers for a long time.

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2 minutes ago, DoubleJ said:

So in summary, to consider one unban we must consider them all through a slippery slope of cause and effect that could in the end provide balance and a better, or worse, metagame. 

im pretty sure it would just be worse. i used to use wobu in doubles. 

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