OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[Erayne]

IMO it's quite a simple matter: if you are unlucky or make a mistake against chansey (quite hard), you may lose a pokemon. If you are unlucky or make a mistake against curselax (high probability) you lose the game

[Gunthug]

20 minutes ago, aeeaeeaaa said:

Nowhere did I write I couldn't handle Chansey or that Snorlax was easier to deal with than Chansey, just like you I believe she's the easier one to play against.

 

My problem with Chansey is that she's (like most tanks here) terribly one dimensional and entirely focused on her sponge role with just enough added value (twave/toxik) to not make her an integral switchbot (switch in, abosrb damage, switch out). As a player that likes somewhat offensive teams I absolutely loathe these kind of walls, their interactivity is minimal and they bring 0 fun.

 

Pokemon has a bunch of actually fun and engaging walls that can run all sort of surprising things, come in hundreds of different EV spread etc. Think of things like Gyara (ok this one is half sweeper), Skarmory, Tyranitar, Swampert, Venu.. those are all pokemons which allow a lot of creativity and they're in my opinion fun pokemon I like to face. Snorlax, balancing issues aside, is also one of them.

 

In my opinion it's a shame that it got banned that quick before we could actually see what players truly could come up with against an actual threatening proactive tank.

It sounds to me like you personally just don't like chansey as a pokemon, and you like snorlax because while it had its place on bulky defensive teams, it could also succeed on offense. Well, that's kind of the problem. Snorlax was super, super splashable, to the point where a team w/o snorlax was probably better off just tossing snorlax in there, most of the time.

 

Mike already addressed your last point, but we gave the tier an enormous amount of time to adapt to snorlax, and it kind of just didn't. I was reading through the aegislash ban thread on smogon the other day and came across an interesting snippet:

 

To take action against a Pokemon based on centralizing aspects,

it must be controlling enough that every team revolves around a specific system in order to function in that metagame. Metagames adapt to threats that are presented, such as Pokemon like Mega Metagross and Buzzwole being required to run Earthquake with Aegislash's presence, and as such banning a Pokemon because it forces imperfect sets won't be happening. Aegislash's existence in the tier is different than that; Aegislash prevents metagame development. Aegislash forces the same metagames and Pokemon to be used in a environment involving it; the metagame will always stay mostly the same because of the fact that Aegislash is so unlike every other Pokemon ever suspected.

 

Now before I get 10 replies (looking at you, senile) saying "but, but, aegislash is much much different than lax and the meta is different and the alskdfoiseulkjdlkj." I get it, it's an imperfect comparison, but I think the logic behind the ban can be at least somewhat applied when looking at snorlax. Like I said, you HAVE to account for curselax when building a team in our OU, or you will likely lose to it. And this doesn't mean slapping one pokemon on your team - it usually means 2 or sometimes even 3. And these pokemon were usually the same ones, and they could be eliminated by alternative, yet viable, snorlax sets (looking at milotic, dusclops, skarm, rhydon).

 

So contrary to your assertion, i DONT think that more time with lax would have led to more meta development and more potential answers being figured out. I think the metagame would have just continued to stagnate around the same several pokemon, because snorlax was always going to be heavily, heavily leaned on and therefore it's small handful of shaky checks/counters were also going to become staples.

 

On the other hand, chansey looks to be garnering similar usage right now, so why is the pink blob not in the same boat? Well first, we haven't really had enough time without lax to determine whether this is the case or not - I'm certainly not going to rule out the possiblity of a chansey suspect test down the line. But to me, chansey is the kind of pokemon that is just easier to exploit than snorlax, especially for offensive teams. As the months go on (should lax end up permanently banned) I think we'll see more and more creative ways for offense, balance, and stall to deal with chansey.

[camcod]

10 hours ago, Erayne said:

Sure... So you never got a paralysis on the switch in against him and then lost because of rng... 

I don't know how people deem the snorlax meta better than this one. I'm seeing so many pokemon that I never saw when there was snorlax, and even if chansey is used quite a lot, the team build and the match itself don't revolve around chansey, it's merely a nuisance for the opponent and a safe wall for the user, but it doesn't even come come close the effect snorlax had on the tier

when Milotic get para it help it ^.^

 

 

 

u are probably not skilled enough to breeding one though >.<

[pachima]

Can we just ignore lax/chansey discussion and proceed to salamence´s?

[Gunthug]

8 minutes ago, pachima said:

Can we just ignore lax/chansey discussion and proceed to salamence´s?

why would we discuss salamence lol

[Murcielago]

Being bad at the game isn't a valid reason to ban snorlax.

 

As we look at the usage for the month test (which will have some settling and become more centralized in time) we can see that there is less diversity and a non-broken pokemon has been removed from the tier.  A double negative to the diversity aspect.

 

This new meta... if you want to call it that is just different, and requires more grind and different Pokemon.  It really isnt any better or worse.

 

Is snorlax uber? no, it is not.

Does banning snorlax bring in more diversity? - not really and the usage stats once again prove it.

 

The only reason to ban snorlax would be because the members of the TC want to...

 

If tiering etiquette is followed then lax is coming back.

 

I really dont care either way im just curious to see if they follow the rules or just do what ever they want.

 

 

 

[pachima]

Legit question: Why in usage statistics there is ONE dragonite played in OU?

[OrangeManiac]

2 minutes ago, pachima said:

Legit question: Why in usage statistics there is ONE dragonite played in OU?

Same reason why I faced a Heracross in NU tournament some months back?

[Murcielago]

I'll just throw it out there.  If I was on the TC I would give the test bann another 2 months and compare the usage and see which meta allowed for more usage... if it is super close i would bring lax back.  If way more stuff is used then keep it banned, this is way to early to tell imo.

[LuisPocho]

1 minute ago, Murcielago said:

 we can see that there is less diversity and a non-broken pokemon has been removed from the tier.  A double negative to the diversity aspect.

10 pokes with more than 20% usage;
22 with more than 10%;
38 above 4%;

how was it last month with snorlax? skarmory, chansey, forre and starmie more than 30% and snorlax above 50%? I dont remember it well

 

[Murcielago]

I saved the old stats.

 

snorlax usage < current chansey usage.  Everything was more evenly disbursed tbh when snorlax was around when you compare usages side by side...

[LuisPocho]

Please show, I want to compare too

[pachima]

27 minutes ago, Murcielago said:

snorlax usage < current chansey usage.

1

Do u even math?

[RysPicz]

1 hour ago, OrangeManiac said:

Same reason why I faced a Heracross in NU tournament some months back?

Killed me so hard.

Funniest thing was, you won

[codylramey]

Guys why you no use curse razor leaf venue. +crit rate = rip lax. All people on here but me are bad.

[DaftCoolio]

7 hours ago, LuisPocho said:

10 pokes with more than 20% usage;
22 with more than 10%;
38 above 4%;

how was it last month with snorlax? skarmory, chansey, forre and starmie more than 30% and snorlax above 50%? I dont remember it well

 

There are more lower usage ones but not really worth noting

 

 

 

[LordStifler]

Already passed 1 month, will Snorlax be overused again or not?

 

[soyhector]

On 9/12/2016 at 2:21 AM, camcod said:

the meta is even more stale then with snorlax IMO

 

 

 

maybe other less skilled players disagree but i never had a problem to kill snorlax, i used him sometimes but not all time, is ok though

 

 

 

but i think the meta was more better when snorlax in duel

Was better to use at least 3 or 4 pokemon to counter Snorlax? and use all the duels almost the same pokemon team? i dont know how many pokemons do you have, maybe less than 10 so it wasnt a problem for you...but a lot of people want to use all OU pokemons without the fear to the Body Slam RNG and the high couverage of Snorlax that complicated to use some walls and sweepers, and want to duel against diferents ways of teambuilding...

[Spaintakula]

9 hours ago, Murcielago said:

I saved the old stats.

 

snorlax usage < current chansey usage.  Everything was more evenly disbursed tbh when snorlax was around when you compare usages side by side...

I don't think you get the whole thing, and you're just rather overfocusing on snorlax vs chansey. It doesn't mean just because chansey is a bit more used than snorlax, then it is SURELY better than lax. It's the effect they have on the metagame which is important. And as Pocho said, more mons getting higher usage without snorlax than with snorlax is actually very beneficial, seeing that actually DOES make the tier more diverse. 1 mon being less used = diversity.

[Murcielago]

spaintacula, have u looked at the charts and numbers... its pretty obvious that there is less diversity and more centralization with snorlax gone then with him around.  its simply math dude.

 

I would hope the TC has the compentancy to see this, I dont have the time to plot it out but even playing there is a way higehr % of usage around a few pokes.... forree, weezing, chansey.... thate to name a few... we had more pokes with over 30% usage... or "in the red zone" with snorlax gone, which once again, indicates greater centralization.  removing snorlax simply worsens the problems we were hoping to fix.

[Spaintakula]

Before lax was banned, 18 mons with 10% or higher usage.

After lax was banned, 22 mons with 10% or higher usage

With previous metagame, lax was ahead with 45% usage. Current one, shows chansey at 46% usage.

If you think 1% higher usage is more important than 4 completely new pokemon breaking above 10% usage, then idk why you're still posting here.

And unlike you, I won't just blatantly say it's pretty fucking obvious it's more centralizing. The usage is different, but not in any way straight out obvious if it was a right or wrong choice.

[Murcielago]

plot it out spaintakula... then you will see what i am talking about.  removing snorlax creates a denser distribution around more pokemon aka is more centralized its easy to see. this will settle with time and get worse... Ive been right about everything so far.

[Spaintakula]

Just now, Murcielago said:

plot it out spaintakula... then you will see what i am talking about.  removing snorlax creates a denser distribution around more pokemon aka is more centralized its easy to see. this will settle with time and get worse... Ive been right about everything so far.

Yeah nobody is gonna take you seriously if you just always think/believe you're right. Not sure if you remember, but I didn't want snorlax banned in the first place, but unlike someone, I can actually do say I could've been wrong and current metagame isn't worse than before. But nah bro you're right bring snorlax back because usage clearly shows snorlax isn't centralizing

[Murcielago]

did u even read my posts? i suggested extending the bann another 2 months.  actually test it to see which is more centralized and make a clean cut decision.

[Spaintakula]

Yes, you also said this:

 

10 hours ago, Murcielago said:

Being bad at the game isn't a valid reason to ban snorlax.

 

As we look at the usage for the month test (which will have some settling and become more centralized in time) we can see that there is less diversity and a non-broken pokemon has been removed from the tier.  A double negative to the diversity aspect.

 

This new meta... if you want to call it that is just different, and requires more grind and different Pokemon.  It really isnt any better or worse.

 

Is snorlax uber? no, it is not.

Does banning snorlax bring in more diversity? - not really and the usage stats once again prove it.

 

The only reason to ban snorlax would be because the members of the TC want to...

 

If tiering etiquette is followed then lax is coming back.

 

I really dont care either way im just curious to see if they follow the rules or just do what ever they want.