OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[Hotarubi]

10 minutes ago, DaftCoolio said:

like can you not. no pokemon had 100% usage, why u do dis

Not always, obviously he exag but its true that those core poke where prevalent and obviously centralizing destroying out diversity.

[Munya]

Again, please keep personal attacks out of this and stay on the topic of what should or shouldn't be discussed/why or why not they should.

[camcod]

when is snorlax unbanned

[Gunthug]

2 hours ago, camcod said:

when is snorlax unbanned

TC will be discussing the test ban this weekend, hope to have reached a decision by the end of the meeting but no promises

[DoubleJ]

Ugh, gotta say it: overall, I think the Snorlax ban has been a success. Chansey usage is being kept "semi-low" and skilled players aren't relying on the fat blob, since it's obviously just set-up bait for so many powerful wallbreakers. Without Snorlax, I am seeing more variation from team-to-team and I feel like there is just more opportunities to predict now. 

 

Ban Snorlax and then test Salamence =)

[aeeaeeaaa]

Quote

skilled players aren't relying on the fat blob, since it's obviously just set-up bait for so many powerful wallbreakers

???

[LifeStyle]

3 hours ago, aeeaeeaaa said:

???

what did you not get from that

[aeeaeeaaa]

Many good players (in regular duels and in tourneys) still use Chansey regularly and with success, so I don't really understand the "skill" comment..

Last 2 OU tournament finals had a Chansey, Walpayer, who I was told a few pages ago is pretty good, uses a Chansey quite often etc

 

[NikhilR]

3 hours ago, aeeaeeaaa said:

Many good players (in regular duels and in tourneys) still use Chansey regularly and with success, so I don't really understand the "skill" comment..

Last 2 OU tournament finals had a Chansey, Walpayer, who I was told a few pages ago is pretty good, uses a Chansey quite often etc

 

I think what he's saying is that those skillful players that choose to not run Chansey, are not at a disadvantage over those that choose to run it. This wasn't the case with Snorlax because Body Slam para from Lax alone could win you the match.

Edited December 8, 2016 by NikhilR

[LifeStyle]

33 minutes ago, aeeaeeaaa said:

Many good players (in regular duels and in tourneys) still use Chansey regularly and with success, so I don't really understand the "skill" comment..

Last 2 OU tournament finals had a Chansey, Walpayer, who I was told a few pages ago is pretty good, uses a Chansey quite often etc

 

Oh does he? Bet he uses shed hull on it too, like only a gay uguu noob would.

Edited December 8, 2016 by LifeStyle

[aeeaeeaaa]

But the last tournament of the Snorlax era had Chanseys in final, not Snorlax iirc

 

 

Anyway, I'm still not really feeling this meta, I'll just wait and see

[LuisPocho]

 Players who play against chansey will always try to exploit it by bringging or set an strong wallbreaker, but that doesnt mean its that easy, actually its pretty hard against good players... its not like wallbreakers are imposible to stop

 Still, if you see a chansey you will try to exploit it... but snorlax is different, when the opponent sends snorlax you can only think about how to stop it and if you have the right poke to do that

 

thats a big difference when you try to deal with them

Edited December 8, 2016 by LuisPocho

[inovan]

This kind of problems Is what keeps this Game alive <3   I love this business strategy

O3o

[aeeaeeaaa]

8 hours ago, NikhilR said:

I think what he's saying is that those skillful players that choose to not run Chansey, are not at a disadvantage over those that choose to run it. This wasn't the case with Snorlax because Body Slam para from Lax alone could win you the match.

In my opinion the meta had evolved (before the Snorlax ban) to a point where having Snorlax on your team was not an an advantage anymore (and in some case, it could even be a liability). I like spectating tourneys and there were more and more Laxless teams standing out, especially in higher quarters from my observations.

You could argue Snorlax was centralizing yes, but saying Snorlax = advantage isn't exactly true

 

Also, many of the Snorlax checks turned out to be more than gimmicks in the end. My Gdv Dusclops or my Milo still feel perfectly relevant when I use them these days

[NikhilR]

Just now, aeeaeeaaa said:

In my opinion the meta had evolved (before the Snorlax ban) to a point where having Snorlax on your team was not an an advantage anymore (and in some case, it could even be a liability). I like spectating tourneys and there were more and more Laxless teams standing out, especially in higher quarters from my observations.

You could argue Snorlax was centralizing yes, but saying Snorlax = advantage isn't exactly true

Then please explain briefly in what sense was having Snorlax not an advantage, or how could Lax's presence become a liability for the Lax-less user? The only situation where I can find this happening is if you have the right counter for the right set. Like having Rhydon for the curse-firepunch or Dusclops for a (curse-less and crunch-less) set. 

 

Rhydon's relevance has gone down quite a bit such that it's usage has dropped to point where it could potentially go to UU, and no one's denying Dusclops / Milo's relevance, but the fact that they have to stall Lax in order to take down Lax, isn't the way we want to deal with offensive threats. 

[aeeaeeaaa]

45 minutes ago, NikhilR said:

Then please explain briefly in what sense was having Snorlax not an advantage, or how could Lax's presence become a liability for the Lax-less user?

I meant a liabiltity for the Lax user, Lax becoming a burden, sorry if I may have poorely chosen my words. In my opinion, when virtually everyone was aware of the prevalence of Snorlax in the meta as top threat, the meta shifted to adjust to this situation enough that running Snorlax wasn't beneficial anymore.

What's the point of running Curselax when the enemy definitely have a reliable p(hazer)? Will a para on the enemy Venu really benefit you when it's a full tank knock-off with enough bulk to ignore your bslams? Is fireblast really that useful when nobody will send their Forretress without having previously checked your moves ?

Do you really need a bulky spdef wall when the meta packs more and more physical threats and less and less special threats?

 

In the end the pros and cons of running lax were equivalent imo, and it would have stayed that way without a ban. That's why in my opinion the statement "running lax is easymode" is not exactly true, and that in my opinion only the criticism that it was overcentralizing makes sense.

 

Quote

 

Rhydon's relevance has gone down quite a bit such that it's usage has dropped to point where it could potentially go to UU, and no one's denying Dusclops / Milo's relevance, but the fact that they have to stall Lax in order to take down Lax, isn't the way we want to deal with offensive threats. 

 

 

 

 

Milo and Dusclops still are basically big sponges that stall threats with little to no proactivity, and there is a much bigger offender for that crime: a certain pink blob.

To be honest I'm not exactly the best theory crafter, but I believe more offensive Snorlax answers have not been experimented enough before it was banned. Things like bulky Heracross/Machamp, disable Haunter, unconventionnal trick users or mixed FocusPunch pokemons are a lot of answers I feel didn't get their chance to shine

 

Rhydon's actually decent as a CB with the comeback of Skarm/Forre/Metagross/Aero

Edited December 8, 2016 by aeeaeeaaa

[camcod]

the meta is even more stale then with snorlax IMO

 

 

 

maybe other less skilled players disagree but i never had a problem to kill snorlax, i used him sometimes but not all time, is ok though

 

 

 

but i think the meta was more better when snorlax in duel

[Erayne]

3 hours ago, camcod said:

the meta is even more stale then with snorlax IMO

 

 

 

maybe other less skilled players disagree but i never had a problem to kill snorlax, i used him sometimes but not all time, is ok though

 

 

 

but i think the meta was more better when snorlax in duel

Sure... So you never got a paralysis on the switch in against him and then lost because of rng... 

I don't know how people deem the snorlax meta better than this one. I'm seeing so many pokemon that I never saw when there was snorlax, and even if chansey is used quite a lot, the team build and the match itself don't revolve around chansey, it's merely a nuisance for the opponent and a safe wall for the user, but it doesn't even come come close the effect snorlax had on the tier

[NikhilR]

15 hours ago, aeeaeeaaa said:

I meant a liabiltity for the Lax user, Lax becoming a burden, sorry if I may have poorely chosen my words. In my opinion, when virtually everyone was aware of the prevalence of Snorlax in the meta as top threat, the meta shifted to adjust to this situation enough that running Snorlax wasn't beneficial anymore.

What's the point of running Curselax when the enemy definitely have a reliable p(hazer)? Will a para on the enemy Venu really benefit you when it's a full tank knock-off with enough bulk to ignore your bslams? Is fireblast really that useful when nobody will send their Forretress without having previously checked your moves ?

Do you really need a bulky spdef wall when the meta packs more and more physical threats and less and less special threats?

 

Nah I should apologize, I meant one thing but said another. Milotic isn't a very reliable phazer, and if you're using Milotic to stall out Curselax, you can't use Milotic for any other purpose. This is evident from one of my matches vs Maekaaay where Milotic just got parahaxed to death and I swept with a curselax. A para on Venu can definitely benefit because it relies on synthesis / leech seed for its recovery and if it gets parahaxed, it's not going to regain that health. Forretress is going to do nothing to Snorlax, so there's no point in sending it in even. When that bulky spdef wall is capable of boosting its defense to the point where physical attackers can't dent it, then you do need to run special attackers like specs zam to pressure it more. 

 

15 hours ago, aeeaeeaaa said:

Milo and Dusclops still are basically big sponges that stall threats with little to no proactivity, and there is a much bigger offender for that crime: a certain pink blob.

To be honest I'm not exactly the best theory crafter, but I believe more offensive Snorlax answers have not been experimented enough before it was banned. Things like bulky Heracross/Machamp, disable Haunter, unconventionnal trick users or mixed FocusPunch pokemons are a lot of answers I feel didn't get their chance to shine

 

Rhydon's actually decent as a CB with the comeback of Skarm/Forre/Metagross/Aero

Bulky Heracross / Machamp aren't going to switch in freely and investing in bulk in both of them comes at a huge of not being able to outspeed several other top threats. That's not healthy. Mixed Focus Punch pokemon aren't the answer either, since Focus Punch lands after the curse boost, I've tried this out with Ludicolo. Disable Haunter can't stall out Lax for long since it can pp stall you with rest, and Haunter is weak af and vulnerable to pursuit. Trick should be an optional method of breaking Snorlax, not a primary method. 

 

[aeeaeeaaa]

 

For me trick is a primary method to cripple the receiving end of your sweep, it's not like trick is wasted if the oppnent happens to NOT have Snorlax

 

As for Snorlax I didn't think you were talking about this kind of vey-bulky-curse-Snorlax, as most of the Snorlax used at the end of pre-ban era were not really curse-focused but rather more wallbreaking/RKing focused (such as CB pursuit Lax or any lax with noticeable attack investment + versatile moveset)

Classic Curselax always seemed like an easily abusable pokemon to me. Losing your haze Milo to a Curselax requires enough bad rng that you might aswell have been disconnected because of internet failure... sry

 

Then again I'm not going to re-do the whole match but

-Venusaur getting a knock off/leech seed/slep powder off of Snorlax is more likely than not (reminder that being paralyzed before having used one of those is 25%chance x 30%chance = 7,5% chance considering you lost a turn to switch Venu in)

-Forre can rapid spin/spike freely if Snorlax doesn't have Fblast (and if he does, he probably  doesn't have Curse)

-Haunter can hard pressure Snorlaxes that aren't full-on tank, and if they're full-on tank it can temporize until Snorlax Rests, allowing to you easily switch-out to (p)haze/set up a threat, alternatively, w-o-w can force the rest easily, and taunt can ruin some Snorlax. I'm not writing more about this guy but be creative, it's a little Gengar and its rising OU usage is deserved

 

All of those answers are solid pokemon on their own which happen to provide you with a lot of utility off Snorlax and that, if used with good timing can really help you out in the long run

 

Bulky Machamp is, iirc the standard set, all you have to do here is to remove a little bit of HP and put it in def and you're good to go

Bulky Heracross is a legit spread imo, people often forget its amazing Sdef and alright base HP, going full glasscannon to reach around 150 isn't that good when any check/counter/RKer is either much faster or much slower anyway

 

And the best way to use a focuspunch is on the switch (manmode!!)

Just a different vision of the game I guess, but I know I'd rather face Snorlax than the boreblob anyday

 

 

Edited December 9, 2016 by aeeaeeaaa

[Maelstrom]

If you don't have a problem with snorlax, why would you have with a chansey?

[Gunthug]

30 minutes ago, aeeaeeaaa said:

 

For me trick is a primary method to cripple the receiving end of your sweep, it's not like trick is wasted if the oppnent happens to NOT have Snorlax

 

As for Snorlax I didn't think you were talking about this kind of vey-bulky-curse-Snorlax, as most of the Snorlax used at the end of pre-ban era were not really curse-focused but rather more wallbreaking/RKing focused (such as CB pursuit Lax or any lax with noticeable attack investment + versatile moveset)

Classic Curselax always seemed like an easily abusable pokemon to me. Losing your haze Milo to a Curselax requires enough bad rng that you might aswell have been disconnected because of internet failure... sry

 

Then again I'm not going to re-do the whole match but

-Venusaur getting a knock off/leech seed/slep powder off of Snorlax is more likely than not (reminder that being paralyzed before having used one of those is 25%chance x 30%chance = 7,5% chance considering you lost a turn to switch Venu in)

-Forre can rapid spin/spike freely if Snorlax doesn't have Fblast (and if he does, he probably  doesn't have Curse)

-Haunter can hard pressure Snorlaxes that aren't full-on tank, and if they're full-on tank it can temporize until Snorlax Rests, allowing to you easily switch-out to (p)haze/set up a threat, alternatively, w-o-w can force the rest easily, and taunt can ruin some Snorlax. I'm not writing more about this guy but be creative, it's a little Gengar and its rising OU usage is deserved

 

All of those answers are solid pokemon on their own which happen to provide you with a lot of utility off Snorlax and that, if used with good timing can really help you out in the long run

 

Bulky Machamp is, iirc the standard set, all you have to do here is to remove a little bit of HP and put it in def and you're good to go

Bulky Heracross is a legit spread imo, people often forget its amazing Sdef and alright base HP, going full glasscannon to reach around 150 isn't that good when any check/counter/RKer is either much faster or much slower anyway

 

And the best way to use a focuspunch is on the switch (manmode!!)

Just a different vision of the game I guess, but I know I'd rather face Snorlax than the boreblob anyday

 

 

Er, not sure which OU you were watching but I still think curselax was the standard set right up until lax was banned. It's extremely versatile and had plenty of sets, but a lot of them you scouted over the course of a match. Curselax, on the other hand, was one of those sets that you had to focus on during teambuilding, or you would just lose to it, period. Some flaws in your analysis:

 

Venusaur only needs to come in on a bslam and get para'd once, and then it's crippled for the rest of the match. A common curselax strategy is to come in on something early (pretty easy to do with its massive special bulk) then spread paralysis to set yourself up for a sweep late game. You may say "well, there's always aroma/heal bell users" but as gbwead has pointed out several times, snorlax comes in most easily on these exact pokemon that carry that move, so not really a great solution. If your bulky venu gets para'd early on, it's going to have a much harder time coming in on snorlax later, where one paralysis can prevent you from getting seeds up and wham, you're 2hkod.

 

Forretress can't do shit to most curselax, since body slam/fire punch is the most cmmon coverage. What use is getting a layer of spikes up when your opponent doesn't need to switch anymore, since he just got to +3 on his curselax because you could barely scratch him?

 

Haunter: I guess you could use a curse haunter? That's probably your best way of actually damaging curselax with it.

 

Other pokemon you mention just aren't viable in practice, no matter how much you convince yourself they look good on paper. Bulky machamp/heracross are still nearly 2hkod by lax, and if either comes in on a body slam and gets para'd, they are crippled DESPITE the guts boost.

 

128 Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 70-84 (35.5 - 42.6%) -- 91.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I mean, you could run 252 hp 252 defense impish machamp, but how centralizing is that? We're running a physical behemoth of a wallbreaker as a fully physically defensive pivot just to handle snorlax? Keep in mind that machamp doesn't have any sort of reliable recovery and will likely be heavily worn down by the time curselax starts to really threaten a team. Same goes for heracross

 

Anyway, if you personally enjoy a snorlax meta more than a chansey meta then that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But to pretend snorlax is easier to deal with than chansey is kind of absurd, in my mind. With chansey, the question becomes "how can I exploit this passive pokemon to put my team in a better position to win?" With snorlax, it's "how can I bend over backwards, both in teambuilding and the actual battle, to not lose to this pokemon?"

 

 

[aeeaeeaaa]

Nowhere did I write I couldn't handle Chansey or that Snorlax was easier to deal with than Chansey, just like you I believe she's the easier one to play against.

 

My problem with Chansey is that she's (like most tanks here) terribly one dimensional and entirely focused on her sponge role with just enough added value (twave/toxik) to not make her an integral switchbot (switch in, abosrb damage, switch out). As a player that likes somewhat offensive teams I absolutely loathe these kind of walls, their interactivity is minimal and they bring 0 fun.

 

Pokemon has a bunch of actually fun and engaging walls that can run all sort of surprising things, come in hundreds of different EV spread etc. Think of things like Gyara (ok this one is half sweeper), Skarmory, Tyranitar, Swampert, Venu.. those are all pokemons which allow a lot of creativity and they're in my opinion fun pokemon I like to face. Snorlax, balancing issues aside, is also one of them.

 

In my opinion it's a shame that it got banned that quick before we could actually see what players truly could come up with against an actual threatening proactive tank.

[Mike]

1 minute ago, aeeaeeaaa said:

In my opinion it's a shame that it got banned that quick before we could actually see what players truly could come up with against an actual threatening proactive tank.

I kinda laughed at this, the snorlax ban was discussed over months. I think it was around 5 months. LF a TC member to confirm. And trust me on this one, they really thought about it.

 

Anyway you can't go around the fact that Snorlax was just unhealthy. Not just it's usage but the amount of crazy good support it gave to teams. And besides that also the annoying paralyze from body slams. Snorlax was just too good not to use. Chansey on the other hand, well you can easily play in this meta without a chansey. For example you got good walls like Porygon2, Venusaur, Special defensive Milotic. These are all very much viable. 

 

On top of that it isn't like Chansey cannot sponge every hit. Her role is to also support teams but not in a way it did with snorlax. As I said in some previous post of mine is that the difference between Snorlax and Chansey is that Snorlax sponged special hits while returning good damage with a wide movepool. And getting the chance of getting paralyzed. And Chansey, well. It can seismic toss! Or uhm Toxic? Twave sometimes? Idk about you but that sounds honestly less threatning than a fat pokemon setting up curses to become unkillable.

 

Tbh the only thing that might remotely stop you from not killing chansey is that you can't scout for toxic or twave. That's why I like using starmie in teams to scout what it runs. Then for example if its twave I would send out flygon or a rhydon. Or if its toxic I would send out a growth venusaur. Which are also good when the opposing team isn't using a chansey.

 

In the end there are WAY more counters to chansey then there were to snorlax. Haze Milotic was literally one of the only safe switch ins on any snorlax without running the risk of getting caught off guard with some gimmick move. 

 

tl:dr if you cant deal with chansey u bad

 

[aeeaeeaaa]

You didn't read my post x.x