OU Tier Discussion Request Thread

[Robofiend]

Nah, now is the time.

 

Life Orb sends Gengar/Tyranitar over the edge, which is part of why I've been arguing against bringing them back. Full disclosure: some of us knew that these items would be implemented, so that's part of why this discussion has been a little stalled. But like I said, now's the time. Anyway - Life Orb & Tyranitar:

 

0 SpA Life Orb Tyranitar Hidden Power Grass vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 146-177 (71.2 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 133-159 (85.8 - 102.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Life Orb Tyranitar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 138-164 (80.2 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Life Orb clearly give Tyranitar a new edge: not only is it an amazing setup sweeper, Scarf and CB abuser, it's now also a core breaker that can tear through pretty much anything that attempts to beat the standard sets. Note that Crunch and RS all do a significant amount of damage to these would be checks, while also ripping through flimsier walls like Weezing or Slowbro.

 

Without Tyranitar around, Gengar suddenly becomes an absolute monster as well, the last thing we need is another high powered set to complement the already terrifying abilities of Sub/Disable/Wisp, Subpunch and 3 Attacks+whatever sets. Snorlax *might* be able to handle it, but it seems like Snorlax is pretty much the only thing in OU (except Chansey) that can handle the full force of LO Sludge Bomb and Shadowball at the same time, not to mention the fact that Sub Punch is amazing at dismantling defenses.

 

These two are just so strong that testing them would be futile - we're pretty much signing up for an OU where everyone runs Heracross/Snorlax/Gengar/Tyranitar.

 

Instead, I suggest we work up from the ground floor: we first unban Snorlax, maybe talk about Trick, and then move on to working in Tyranitar or Gengar IF everything else is going smoothly. To me, throwing 3-5 new pokemon back into the OU mix just seems like a disaster (not to mention it goes against the unban strategy laid out in The Rules).

[OrangeManiac]

Basically what Zeb said. The powercreep with Choice items is first of all so real you get much less buffs than you used to. In addition random scarfer here and there can ruin BP anyways, the BP user should constantly be on its toes. In general, move bans just should be used REALLY rarely instead of "I dont like it, pls ban".

But hey, let's keep calling shit OP based on early 2014 meta. BP was uncomp 2014, hey BP can be used uncomp ways in our current meta too! Fuck discussion, amirite?

[Spoiler]Didnt even wanna bring a BP debate here because all I was trying to say move bans should be rarely if ever a thing[/spoiler]

Edit: Robo if uncomp shit is always uncomp always then why isn't Trapinch, Diglett, Wynaut banned? Right, because they're not OP. Yes, you could be right these two items haven't fixed it yet. Right, MMO tiering bases on hypothesis, not observation. I forgot.

Double edit: lolololol Life Orb became a thing, guys should we really rethink our meta for a sec?

Edited April 28, 2016 by OrangeManiac

[XPLOZ]

Heracross :

 

Arcanine

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Heracross Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 148-175 (75.1 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1  252+ Atk Life Orb Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 198-234 (100.5 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Arcanine Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 114-134 (73 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Weezing

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 90-107 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Weezing Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 68-80 (43.5 - 51.2%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO

 

Skarm

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Heracross Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 108-127 (62.7 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Skarmory Drill Peck vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 196-232 (125.6 - 148.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Gyarados

Hera jolly vs offensive gyara : +1 252 Atk Life Orb Heracross Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 198-234 (116.4 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hera adamant vs defensive gyara : +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Heracross Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 148-176 (73.2 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heracross: 69-82 (44.2 - 52.5%) -- 20.3% chance to 2HKO

 

 

The only counter seems to be Skarmory, and he still takes bad hits while having only Rest to recover. (LF whole 4G & Roost)

(Didn't even talk about Guts because it's already savage enough)

[Ironmaster]

I really think everything should get a reset. With the added new items we don't know how the now ubers will be with the items added. Calcs can provide a good basis but actually seeing how battles come about and with replays will give us a good insight of what needs to stay uber.

Just because gengar got life orb and ttar also doesn't mean that they will automatically become powerhouses. When things like scarf can easily ruin one of their days. Everyone can run all the calcs they want but bottom line is you will never know what your opponent is running. Simple things like a life orb starmie can shut down both of the above but a choice scarf gengar can do the same also.

Finally devs listened to us and gave us these items and now we seriously are saying no to a reset? The only thing missing is a sash now but even without it a reset should be made. Wonder why devs don't ever take the competitive community seriously.

[DrCraig]

I really think everything should get a reset. With the added new items we don't know how the now ubers will be with the items added. Calcs can provide a good basis but actually seeing how battles come about and with replays will give us a good insight of what needs to stay uber.

Just because gengar got life orb and ttar also doesn't mean that they will automatically become powerhouses. When things like scarf can easily ruin one of their days. Everyone can run all the calcs they want but bottom line is you will never know what your opponent is running. Simple things like a life orb starmie can shut down both of the above but a choice scarf gengar can do the same also.

Finally devs listened to us and gave us these items and now we seriously are saying no to a reset? The only thing missing is a sash now but even without it a reset should be made. Wonder why devs don't ever take the competitive community seriously.

Or usage could just fix there tiers on their own

[DoubleJ]

Or usage could just fix there tiers on their own

 

You're going to have to elaborate on this one. Usage will change regardless because of these additions. If we reset, usage will be the frontrunner in determining what is actually banworthy and what isn't. 

[RysPicz]

Devs be like:

 

Now I'm just waiting for U-Turn, Stealth Rocks, 6th gen Knock Off and maybe Volt Switch. Lesgo! ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

More seriously, I'm really, really glad and happy that you (devs) are focusing so much on pvp right now. Those updates are fantastic, I'm totally serious right here, no irony.

Sooooo... Legendaries when? :)) So you know, we can just have even more arguments for the total meta reset.

[fredrichnietze]

i know this is an unpopular opinion, but i think releasing legendaries without the pve dungeons is a bad idea.

 

further more now that we have life orb and shed thingy we need to reset. their is no reason not to, just arguments for difference ways to do it. 

[Rendiz]

i know this is an unpopular opinion, but i think releasing legendaries without the pve dungeons is a bad idea.

 

further more now that we have life orb and shed thingy we need to reset. their is no reason not to, just arguments for difference ways to do it. 

I'm pretty sure that its confirmed the next major update patch will be PvE focused and that the devs are planning on implementing new dungeons. So its fairly likely that we will have legendaries soon, that is providing they allow us to keep them and make them usable in PvP.

[DoctorPBC]

 

Full disclosure: some of us knew that these items would be implemented, so that's part of why this discussion has been a little stalled.

 

 

5 yen says he knows about more potential meta shakeups.

 

Honestly feel like this discussion will be a continuous stall until legendary dungeons

[Laz]

Meta reset please, heracross can't be stopped anymore, unless you guys wanna ban it..

[Senile]

Maybe scarf Cross will make things like Espeon think twice, but other than that, the whole point of Baton Pass is still the same and it's still pretty broken. I guess you could say trick shuts BP down, but again that gets into the gray area because you in particular have expressed concerns about the competitiveness of Trick. 

 

The thing about moves like BP (same goes for Volt Switch, U-Turn, etc.) and pokemon like Dugtrio/Wobbufett is that they're always going to be inherently uncompetitive but that doesn't necessarily make them banworthy. Spikes, Rocks, Priority and Life Orb present pretty big barriers for the BP abuser in Gen IV onwards (also Shaymin - remember that time I Seed Flared you to death in PSL? Lions OP). Honestly, U turn teams were also pretty scary in that meta too, since scarf Flygon and Scizor can almost guarantee chip damage on everything in the tier. But in 6th gen that's not so much the case.. I digress.

 

All I'm saying is that these moves are uncompetitive on a spectrum relative to the tools we have to check them. I don't think we currently have the tools to check them, outside of rampant Trick and maybe Skarmory, so I don't think it's worth our time to test, similar to how it's not worth our time to test Gengar or Tyranitar because they both just got amazing buffs with these new items. Anyway, Baton Pass adds nothing worth keeping to the game, unless we were to get some 4th Pokes I don't see a good reason to even test it simply because of how centralizing it'd be. 

 

WRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY WHY DO YOU DO THESE THINGS TO ME 

 

No, Baton Pass, Wobbuffet, and Dugtrio are most definitely not pokemon that have to stay banned, and just because they were banned before for being uncompetitive doesn't mean they're still banworthy. This is an incredibly important distinction. I honestly don't at all think Wobbuffet is still banworthy, Dugtrio is in the same vein, and honestly you could bring back Baton Pass without too much trouble either. Baton Pass teams weren't even really a problem back when Baton Pass was banned, it was mostly strong passers like Gligar in UU/NU which were huge problems, along with really dumb stuff like Jolteon passing to Dugtrio in OU.

 

With that being said, I don't necessarily advocate unbanning Wobbuffet/Baton Pass. Yes, they're not necessarily still banworthy like they were at the time they were banned, but this has been true for quite a while; we could have tested them ages ago, and we arguably should have to some extent. However, the real reason they're still banned and not even being tested isn't out of some unspoken rule, or some ancient arcane knowledge as to how incredibly uncompetitive they are, the real reason they're still banned is because nobody fucking wants them back. Sure, we could bring down Wobbuffet, but that would require time, energy, and effort over the course of over a month to maybe possibly bring down a pokemon nobody wants back anyway. Even if after all that people agree that he's not banworthy, if we're being perfectly honest here, Wobbuffet will probably just make OU worse, or hardly affect it at all. That's why him and BP are still banned; Not because they're necessarily still banworthy, but because there's a whole process required to bring them down, when nobody wants them back and bringing them down won't make the game better anyway.

 

Although, this mostly applies to Wobbuffet. Bringing back Baton Pass is honestly pretty legitimate, things have changed a lot since it was banned. I don't even understand why you think Baton Pass would be remotely centralizing whatsoever, it wasn't even centralizing when it was banned 2 years ago, except for maybe in UU (and NU, but that was when NU was CM Baton Pass, all banning BP did was turn it into straight up first-to-crit CM wars), to say that it'd be centralizing if it was unbanned now is a massive stretch.

 

As for everything else, I'd favor a full reset. I honestly doubt anyone believes that a full reset will result in a metagame with no banned pokemon and there aren't pokemon who will be quickbanned faster than you can say "m-muh stall", but to be entirely honest, I think it'd be better to just reset, quickban the really obvious bullshit, and then go on from there than it is to argue about what should/shouldn't be brought down for 2 weeks and then ultimately hardly change anything, especially since there shouldn't be much more stuff now that we have Specs/Scarf/Orb all at once now. 

 

also, @ the part about throwing back several pokemon at once going against "ze rulez", cmon m8 you know it doesn't matter. you guys can (and should) just, yknow, change the rules. they're not legally binding m8, and policies on tiering should be changing/evolving.

 

Also what is this trick discussion? These items have been out like a week, tiers are still unstable, and you people are already requesting a discussion to ban a move? lmao chill tf out guys banning a move isn't something you just do after a leisurely stroll after work in your spare time or something, it's the kind of thing you try and avoid if at all possible, and it's definitely not something you start considering so quickly.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Senile

[DoubleJ]

Ugh, when Senile comes in and you agree with him (or he agrees with you).

 

*chills up and down that spine

[RysPicz]

He's back with a vengeance.

[Robofiend]

[spoiler]WRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY WHY DO YOU DO THESE THINGS TO ME[/spoiler]

No, Baton Pass, Wobbuffet, and Dugtrio are most definitely not pokemon that have to stay banned, and just because they were banned before for being uncompetitive doesn't mean they're still banworthy. This is an incredibly important distinction. I honestly don't at all think Wobbuffet is still banworthy, Dugtrio is in the same vein, and honestly you could bring back Baton Pass without too much trouble either. Baton Pass teams weren't even really a problem back when Baton Pass was banned, it was mostly strong passers like Gligar in UU/NU which were huge problems, along with really dumb stuff like Jolteon passing to Dugtrio in OU.

With that being said, I don't necessarily advocate unbanning Wobbuffet/Baton Pass. Yes, they're not necessarily still banworthy like they were at the time they were banned, but this has been true for quite a while; we could have tested them ages ago, and we arguably should have to some extent. However, the real reason they're still banned and not even being tested isn't out of some unspoken rule, or some ancient arcane knowledge as to how incredibly uncompetitive they are, the real reason they're still banned is because nobody fucking wants them back. Sure, we could bring down Wobbuffet, but that would require time, energy, and effort over the course of over a month to maybe possibly bring down a pokemon nobody wants back anyway. Even if after all that people agree that he's not banworthy, if we're being perfectly honest here, Wobbuffet will probably just make OU worse, or hardly affect it at all. That's why him and BP are still banned; Not because they're necessarily still banworthy, but because there's a whole process required to bring them down, when nobody wants them back and bringing them down won't make the game better anyway.

Although, this mostly applies to Wobbuffet. Bringing back Baton Pass is honestly pretty legitimate, things have changed a lot since it was banned. I don't even understand why you think Baton Pass would be remotely centralizing whatsoever, it wasn't even centralizing when it was banned 2 years ago, except for maybe in UU (and NU, but that was when NU was CM Baton Pass, all banning BP did was turn it into straight up first-to-crit CM wars), to say that it'd be centralizing if it was unbanned now is a massive stretch.

As for everything else, I'd favor a full reset. I honestly doubt anyone believes that a full reset will result in a metagame with no banned pokemon and there aren't pokemon who will be quickbanned faster than you can say "m-muh stall", but to be entirely honest, I think it'd be better to just reset, quickban the really obvious bullshit, and then go on from there than it is to argue about what should/shouldn't be brought down for 2 weeks and then ultimately hardly change anything, especially since there shouldn't be much more stuff now that we have Specs/Scarf/Orb all at once now.

[spoiler]also, @ the part about throwing back several pokemon at once going against "ze rulez", cmon m8 you know it doesn't matter. you guys can (and should) just, yknow, change the rules. they're not legally binding m8, and policies on tiering should be changing/evolving.[/spoiler]

Also what is this trick discussion? These items have been out like a week, tiers are still unstable, and you people are already requesting a discussion to ban a move? lmao chill tf out guys banning a move isn't something you just do after a leisurely stroll after work in your spare time or something, it's the kind of thing you try and avoid if at all possible, and it's definitely not something you start considering so quickly.

I think we're mostly saying the same thing here, it's just that I think Gengar and Tyranitar ARE the obviously broken shit.

I could entertain the "bring back uncompetitive shit" argument but I think you're being a bit loco here- it takes people a shit load of effort to get their BP pokes and Snorlaxes etc. all trained up and even longer to test ban or even get a TC consensus. Our last meta reset took more than 6 months to even out. If that's really what everyone wants, I'll go for it but in the past the ban/unban cycle has pissed a lot of people off and a lot of people's interest in playing the game competively. I'd like to avoid the obvious insanity of LO dragonite running amok, personally.

Also I don't see any downsides to increments, which is why I suggested it. it'll likely take less time and minimize the amount of time players spend breeding shit that we then ban.

[DoubleJ]

I think we're mostly saying the same thing here, it's just that I think Gengar and Tyranitar ARE the obviously broken shit.

I could entertain the "bring back uncompetitive shit" argument but I think you're being a bit loco here- it takes people a shit load of effort to get their BP pokes and Snorlaxes etc. all trained up and even longer to test ban or even get a TC consensus. Our last meta reset took more than 6 months to even out. If that's really what everyone wants, I'll go for it but in the past the ban/unban cycle has pissed a lot of people off and a lot of people's interest in playing the game competively. I'd like to avoid the obvious insanity of LO dragonite running amok, personally.

Also I don't see any downsides to increments, which is why I suggested it. it'll likely take less time and minimize the amount of time players spend breeding shit that we then ban.

 

The solution has been said several times before, just ask for a freeze of UU and NU while you reset the OU meta. Once you have enough usage for OU, you can recreate UU, unfreezing it, and moving forward. Then the same can be done with NU. Yes, it will take a long time, but I think the game owes it to itself considering we tier on usage and not 'power', or rather opinion. 

[fredrichnietze]

question, do you have the usage data from the auto tourneys and matchmaking? because a huge part of why it took 6 months was the lower frequency and # of participants of tournaments. 

this new 128 man tournament seems like it is literally made to get usage data. 

 

anyways point is how it was then=/=how it is now.

[Gunthug]

question, do you have the usage data from the auto tourneys and matchmaking? because a huge part of why it took 6 months was the lower frequency and # of participants of tournaments.
this new 128 man tournament seems like it is literally made to get usage data.

anyways point is how it was then=/=how it is now.

Correct. Gathering usage would be much easier - but the usage won't be representative until people adapt to the new items and the reset so it's not like simply taking the next 3 days of matchmaking usage would be enough Edited April 28, 2016 by Gunthug

[DoubleJ]

Maybe reset, wait 2 weeks for players to adapt then take 2 weeks worth of usage to determine how things are shaking out

[OldKeith]

Unban everything (except Wobbu?). Collect usage from 5-6 officials. Create preliminary OU and ban problematic mon,

[LuisPocho]

Am I the only one who dont like the idea of bringing legendaryes?

[BlackJovi]

Ban the hax please 

[DrCraig]

Am I the only one who dont like the idea of bringing legendaryes?

Legendary =/= Overpowered

[Gunthug]

For the purposes of our "what do we do now discussion," I would suggest assuming that these latest two items are all we're getting for the foreseeable future. We kicked the can a little while waiting for life orb/shed shell, but it's time to get to work

[DoubleJ]

For the purposes of our "what do we do now discussion," I would suggest assuming that these latest two items are all we're getting for the foreseeable future. We kicked the can a little while waiting for life orb/shed shell, but it's time to get to work

Love the attitude. Let's hype.