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[UU Discussion] Magmar (Remains UU)


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Lets unban Linoone and wreck all those wall team fgts. 

Brah, don't get me wrong, but all your comments looks like you just want to keep using your own team and want everything that threaten it out. Don't wanna be offensive against you or craig at all. Wall/Stall is a way to play, but have its flaws, ppl are trying to explore that, before the split mostly of the stall teams are unbeatable, now seems that ppl are scary that stall teams are not so good anymore.

 

well, Linoone can run Flail as well, so, GG walrein.

 

Also, sorry, I'm not that active to realize that it was used in more than one tournament.

 

@Craig

 

I think the first discussion should have been place at the viability thread to put Magmar in, any +6 poke is scary as hell, but after placing it in the viability we all would see if this thread should have existed, I do think that just S, A+ and maybe A pokes should have ban discussions.

 

As I said, not looking to be salty or aggressive here, but i think that is lots of pointless discussions without adaptation.

 

Do you really think that ppl are not planning to make things that stop magmars? It may take time cause of the slowness of the meta.

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I don't run wall and stall, heck I barely enter because I'm busy all the time, but I anyway just can't see much differences from Linoone and Magmar. Why must it be included in every thread that people are protecting 'their playstyle of wall dur hur?' No substance in that argument at all. But I digress. Magmar is like watered down Linoone ofc. I don't understand why Linoone was banned when Steelix was the highest used pokemon, and there were few other counters, but they still saw light. I feel like this situation is parallel where people can run quagsires on every team, but Magmar will still do its thing like Linoone did. Maybe Im too vague and Magmar simply can't ohko enough? Its not powerful enough? Idk

Then again I don't want to see it banned so quick either. Should probably give it time. Maybe more people would have means to discuss for and against it then.

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Brah, don't get me wrong, but all your comments looks like you just want to keep using your own team and want everything that threaten it out. Don't wanna be offensive against you or craig at all. Wall/Stall is a way to play, but have its flaws, ppl are trying to explore that, before the split mostly of the stall teams are unbeatable, now seems that ppl are scary that stall teams are not so good anymore.

 

well, Linoone can run Flail as well, so, GG walrein.

 

Also, sorry, I'm not that active to realize that it was used in more than one tournament.

 

@Craig

 

I think the first discussion should have been place at the viability thread to put Magmar in, any +6 poke is scary as hell, but after placing it in the viability we all would see if this thread should have existed, I do think that just S, A+ and maybe A pokes should have ban discussions.

 

As I said, not looking to be salty or aggressive here, but i think that is lots of pointless discussions without adaptation.

 

Do you really think that ppl are not planning to make things that stop magmars? It may take time cause of the slowness of the meta.

 

Nah nothing like that. I am okay with changing my team often but what I am uncomfortable with is how bringing one poke in my team can become an immediate liability to all others. I agree with wall/stall having its flaws but I know that there are ways of breaking wall teams without using op stuff. It could start with trapping a special wall (Lion knows this well :) ) and then proceeding with an array of spakers or just setting up SD on the right pokemon and sweeping through. I disagree with stall teams being unbeatable because you have to find the right wall breaker. I faced Zebra once earlier in a UU tourney and my tactic was to continue to spiking up and pile on dmg that way. Spikes+Offense is a very good strategy to break wall teams. I ran a bulk up sub Granbull vs Frags to break through his chansey, quagsire, diglett, gligar etc. I grinded 30k bp for bellydrum quagsire to beat walls teams, so no I am not the kind of person who just sits back and wants to use the same things over and over again. I try my best to think of new ways to beat wall teams but I don't think running something op af is the solution for that because running magmar has the potential kill any style of play, be it offensive or defensive.

 

Well if Linoone runs flail, espeed, bellydrum, endure, then ghosts, Aggron (see how I'm encouraging use of offensive pokemon), Omastar and Steelix are your friends.

 

There is a lot of difference between planning to make something and having a well established idea. If someone has an idea then I am all ears to it but saying things like altaria, grumpig to stop magmar or running offensive teams to prevent set ups, is silly because I could use the same argument for Linoone. 

Edited by NikhilR
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I'm going to start a thread on all of nik's pokes. I swear he's trying to do me in as a UU player. Also Nik, I had my breeder for Magmar already established. So saying that you "told me to make one" is quite false. We just happened to have a coincidental discussion on a poke we both felt was good.

Comparing Linnone to Magmar is silly. I think I proved that fairly well in my post earlier.

Good luck convincing the UU council to ban another pokemon. You're starting to look desperate and I don't want to see that in discussion so I'm stepping out of the ring here. I've already said my peace about this poke.

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First of all, Belly Drum cuts your HP by half rounded down

 

that means that a lv 50 Magmar with 31 ivs and 4 evs in HP will have 70 HP left.

 

Nik said something about salac berry, the only thing that will activate salac is any move that will do around 50~60 damage output (if you are dumb enough to seismic toss it with a chansey after a belly drum you asked for a sweep), cause I don't really see any way you would remove either Thunderpunch, Firepunch or Mach punch for Substitute or Reversal to get the salac boost yourself, the lack of coverage will mostly likely require lots more support.

 

Which pokes can Magmar setup on except Chansey? (if chancey run twave if can cripple a lot magmar, unless it runs lum instead of salac)

 

Regarding that Magmar needs to be in without any damage, switching in any poke is a high risky.

 

(I am using adamant magmar for max damage output)

 

Vileplume?

0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 58-70 (41.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

after a Belly Drum you have almost a kill here, so magmar switching in and seting up a belly drum isn't save, you can add some evs like 80 for a bigger chance of killing it after a sludge bomb.

 

I'll not even bother to calc for Steelix.

 

Claydool can't switch in a belly drum, but magmar can't setup either.

 

Porygon2 with tri attack will either put magmar on salac range or kill it if it tries to setup onto it.

80+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 64-76 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 39.1% chance to 2HKO

 

Quagsire can switch in after a belly drum

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 90-107 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recover

 

Houndoom isn't a setup bait either.

252 Atk Houndoom Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magmar: 84-99 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But magmar can 2ohko it with mach punch without setup and not beeing able to belly drum and sweep

252+ Atk Magmar Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Houndoom: 78-92 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Lanturn can come in after a belly drum

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Fire Punch vs. 36 HP / 220 Def Lanturn: 128-151 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Lanturn Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 102-120 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

with some evs can put it out with tbolt too

 

Altaria may not like switching in after a belly drum

+6 252+ Atk Magmar ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Altaria: 158-186 (86.8 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

but it can carry haze or erthquake, with some lucky (or more def evs) can put magmar down, and magmar can't setup against it

 

Exeggutor can live a fire punch without belly drum and cripple magmar to the point it can't set a belly drum

4 SpA Exeggutor Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 72-85 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Magmar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 92-110 (45.5 - 54.4%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Azumaril isn't an option for setting up either.

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magmar: 264-312 (187.2 - 221.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Magmar ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 92-110 (44.4 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I could be more down to the usage statiscs and add which pokes it can't setup onto.

 

Foes that can't handle it after setting up (Free switch in the belly drum turn)

Quagsire

If adamant Jolly Kanga outspeeds, also has fake out to put Magmar down.

 

Donphan

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 188 Def Donphan: 166-196 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Crobat

252+ SpA Crobat Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 66-78 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Mach Punch vs. 108 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 24-28 (13.7 - 16%) -- possibly the worst move ever

 

Golem

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Mach Punch vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Golem: 130-154 (82.8 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Mixed Defensive Camerupt

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Camerupt: 111-132 (62.7 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Scyther

252 Atk Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magmar: 72-85 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

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I just googled that poke and I have zero idea on what it does. Hopefully if Pokemmo does ever update to future gens, I will learn more about this stuff. 

 

[spoiler]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9TkL1I1T_g

Don't take it too seriously, that match was probably fixed, since the opposing team was shit and most likelly with with sets that let that little shit sweep....but could not find any good LC sweeps

[/spoiler]

Edited by londark
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I'm going to start a thread on all of nik's pokes. I swear he's trying to do me in as a UU player. Also Nik, I had my breeder for Magmar already established. So saying that you "told me to make one" is quite false. We just happened to have a coincidental discussion on a poke we both felt was good.

Comparing Linnone to Magmar is silly. I think I proved that fairly well in my post earlier.

Good luck convincing the UU council to ban another pokemon. You're starting to look desperate and I don't want to see that in discussion so I'm stepping out of the ring here. I've already said my peace about this poke.

 

Nah nothing personal or anything dude. Was that Art's breeder? I just felt like I gave the final push/shove into you making it, which was my point.

 

I'm not desperate or anything. I just find the reasoning for keeping magmar still in UU not good enough seeing as how the same could be said about Linoone. I'll read your earlier post again to see your comparison with Linoone because I feel like I may have missed out on something.

 

Did I?

 

so, lets see if I can show you that you are the one who didn't get the point.

 

First of all, Belly Drum cuts your HP by half rounded down

 

that means that a lv 50 Magmar with 31 ivs and 4 evs in HP will have 70 HP left.

 

Nik said something about salac berry, the only thing that will activate salac is any move that will do around 50~60 damage output (if you are dumb enough to seismic toss it with a chansey after a belly drum you asked for a sweep), cause I don't really see any way you would remove either Thunderpunch, Firepunch or Mach punch for Substitute or Reversal to get the salac boost yourself, the lack of coverage will mostly likely require lots more support.

 

Which pokes can Magmar setup on except Chansey? (if chancey run twave if can cripple a lot magmar, unless it runs lum instead of salac)

 

Regarding that Magmar needs to be in without any damage, switching in any poke is a high risky.

 

(I am using adamant magmar for max damage output)

 

Vileplume?

0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 58-70 (41.1 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

after a Belly Drum you have almost a kill here, so magmar switching in and seting up a belly drum isn't save, you can add some evs like 80 for a bigger chance of killing it after a sludge bomb.

 

I'll not even bother to calc for Steelix.

 

Claydool can't switch in a belly drum, but magmar can't setup either.

 

Porygon2 with tri attack will either put magmar on salac range or kill it if it tries to setup onto it.

80+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 64-76 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 39.1% chance to 2HKO

 

Quagsire can switch in after a belly drum

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 90-107 (44.5 - 52.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recover

 

Houndoom isn't a setup bait either.

252 Atk Houndoom Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magmar: 84-99 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But magmar can 2ohko it with mach punch without setup and not beeing able to belly drum and sweep

252+ Atk Magmar Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Houndoom: 78-92 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Lanturn can come in after a belly drum

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Fire Punch vs. 36 HP / 220 Def Lanturn: 128-151 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Lanturn Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 102-120 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

with some evs can put it out with tbolt too

 

Altaria may not like switching in after a belly drum

+6 252+ Atk Magmar ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 40 Def Altaria: 158-186 (86.8 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

but it can carry haze or erthquake, with some lucky (or more def evs) can put magmar down, and magmar can't setup against it

 

Exeggutor can live a fire punch without belly drum and cripple magmar to the point it can't set a belly drum

4 SpA Exeggutor Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 72-85 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Magmar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 92-110 (45.5 - 54.4%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Azumaril isn't an option for setting up either.

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magmar: 264-312 (187.2 - 221.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Magmar ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 92-110 (44.4 - 53.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I could be more down to the usage statiscs and add which pokes it can't setup onto.

 

Foes that can't handle it after setting up (Free switch in the belly drum turn)

Quagsire

If adamant Jolly Kanga outspeeds, also has fake out to put Magmar down.

 

Donphan

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 188 Def Donphan: 166-196 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Crobat

252+ SpA Crobat Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 66-78 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Mach Punch vs. 108 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 24-28 (13.7 - 16%) -- possibly the worst move ever

 

Golem

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Mach Punch vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Golem: 130-154 (82.8 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Mixed Defensive Camerupt

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Camerupt: 111-132 (62.7 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Scyther

252 Atk Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Magmar: 72-85 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

I'd prefer it if you did calcs with a bit of hp investment on magmar so that it gets EXACTLY enough speed to outspeed crobat. With that most of your 2hkos will become 3hkos. So I did calcs with 158 hp

 

1) Vile is guaranteed set up

 

0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 158 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 58-70 (36.2 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

2) Claydol can't be set up on but isn't a counter either.

 

3) Porygon is a guaranteed set up bait as well if it isn't mixed and runs 0 spak evs. But assuming 80 like you did

 

80 SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 158 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 58-70 (36.2 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Return from Pory does around 47-55% without investment so if mixed, magmar can't set up vs it.

 

4) Quagsire is hard on counter and can't set up vs it

 

5) Exeggutor is set up bait and not counter

 

0 SpA Exeggutor Psychic vs. 158 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 70-84 (43.7 - 52.5%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO

 

6) Can't set up on Azumarill, which isn't a counter either.

 

7) Can't set up on Houndoom either.

 

8) Do people even run Fake Out on Kanga in UU anymore? I don't think so.

 

Also I don't know why you're using pokemon like scyther, camerupt, things which never have seen the light of day.

 

The fact remains that vileplume, chansey, pory2, clefable, exeggutor, 252spak xatu, misdreavus, 252 attk sneasel, cacturne are all set up bait for a 158hp Magmar and if you do hit it, then you put it in salac range where it outspeeds crobat and anything else.

 

 

[spoiler]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9TkL1I1T_g

Don't take it too seriously, that match was probably fixed, since the opposing team was shit and most likelly with with sets that let that little shit sweep....but could not find any good LC sweeps

[/spoiler]

 

Haha dayum! I remember back when I was doing UU randomly I got swept twice by its evo, Slurpuff. Drain Punch just rekt everything. I had absolutely no idea how to stop Slurpuff but probably that's because I hardly knew about the typing, new pokes and what fairy type was. 

Edited by NikhilR
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I'd prefer it if you did calcs with a bit of hp investment on magmar so that it gets EXACTLY enough speed to outspeed crobat. With that most of your 2hkos will become 3hkos. So I did calcs with 158 hp

 

1) Vile is guaranteed set up

 

0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 158 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 58-70 (36.2 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

2) Claydol can't be set up on but isn't a counter either.

 

3) Porygon is a guaranteed set up bait as well if it isn't mixed and runs 0 spak evs. But assuming 80 like you did

 

80 SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 158 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 58-70 (36.2 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

Return from Pory does around 47-55% without investment so if mixed, magmar can't set up vs it.

 

4) Quagsire is hard on counter and can't set up vs it

 

5) Exeggutor is set up bait and not counter

 

0 SpA Exeggutor Psychic vs. 158 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 70-84 (43.7 - 52.5%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO

 

6) Can't set up on Azumarill, which isn't a counter either.

 

7) Can't set up on Houndoom either.

 

8) Do people even run Fake Out on Kanga in UU anymore? I don't think so.

 

Also I don't know why you're using pokemon like scyther, camerupt, things which never have seen the light of day.

 

The fact remains that vileplume, chansey, pory2, clefable, exeggutor, 252spak xatu, misdreavus, 252 attk sneasel, cacturne are all set up bait for a 158hp Magmar and if you do hit it, then you put it in salac range where it outspeeds crobat and anything else.

 

I don't see why you would run more HP, i wouldn't even run 4 HP, you can use it to allow you to switch in, but doesn't look too good (correct me if I am wrong).

 

for instance, if you switch in a vile's sludge bomb you lose around 40%, magmar belly drum, you just sludge bomb again, and magmar is gone without doing anything. Don't have really a good use for those HP evs tho.

 

Also, i used the usage list to come up with those things, even you saying: "Also I don't know why you're using pokemon like scyther, camerupt, things which never have seen the light of day." you should check the usage for UU that Noad provides, you see them listed there, so it means that someone is using them, I'm showing that some underrated pokes can deal with this "thread" if you don't want to look at them cause "they never seem the light of day", maybe a new magmar will swept you again soon (I bet if before the last tournament anyone would listen magmar as a good poke).

 

Also about Fake Out Kanga, its an option, if people doesn't run it is not my problem, but that doesn't make it less viable.

 

All those guys i listed aren't counters, I'm just showing how hard is to pull of without any support a belly drum magmar, i would say that magmar is at the best an B rank, doesn't deserve to be banned.

Edited by felix
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I don't see why you would run more HP, i wouldn't even run 4 HP, you can use it to allow you to switch in, but doesn't look too good (correct me if I am wrong).

 

for instance, if you switch in a vile's sludge bomb you lose around 40%, magmar belly drum, you just sludge bomb again, and magmar is gone without doing anything. Don't have really a good use for those HP evs tho.

 

Also, i used the usage list to come up with those things, even you saying: "Also I don't know why you're using pokemon like scyther, camerupt, things which never have seen the light of day." you should check the usage for UU that Noad provides, you see them listed there, so it means that someone is using them, I'm showing that some underrated pokes can deal with this "thread" if you don't want to look at them cause "they never seem the light of day", maybe a new magmar will swept you again soon (I bet if before the last tournament anyone would listen magmar as a good poke).

 

Also about Fake Out Kanga, its an option, if people doesn't run it is not my problem, but that doesn't make it less viable.

 

All those guys i listed aren't counters, I'm just showing how hard is to pull of without any support a belly drum magmar, i would say that magmar is at the best an B rank, doesn't deserve to be banned.

 

No one switches a bellydrummer into an attack. I think everyone knows that by now. If you're going to switch it into an attack, you might as well get wish support. I went for pokemon that had 5% usage but if we're going by the entire usage stat then the list gets bigger with:

 

Jynx, Tangela, Ninetales, Sableye

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No one mentioned Golem?

 

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Golem: 130-154 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

0- Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magmar: 170-204 (98.8 - 118.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

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I don't run wall and stall, heck I barely enter because I'm busy all the time, but I anyway just can't see much differences from Linoone and Magmar. Why must it be included in every thread that people are protecting 'their playstyle of wall dur hur?' No substance in that argument at all. But I digress. Magmar is like watered down Linoone ofc. I don't understand why Linoone was banned when Steelix was the highest used pokemon, and there were few other counters, but they still saw light. I feel like this situation is parallel where people can run quagsires on every team, but Magmar will still do its thing like Linoone did. Maybe Im too vague and Magmar simply can't ohko enough? Its not powerful enough? Idk

Then again I don't want to see it banned so quick either. Should probably give it time. Maybe more people would have means to discuss for and against it then.

the huge difference with linoone and magmar is that linoone could just be your last pokemon to be sent in the field and the chanes were that steelix was already dead by then and it sweeps because the chances were that the pokemon in front of you couldnt do more then 75% to you, with magmar you can't really do that , and also stuff like thunder wave on walls criples magmar incredibly 

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No one switches a bellydrummer into an attack. I think everyone knows that by now. If you're going to switch it into an attack, you might as well get wish support. I went for pokemon that had 5% usage but if we're going by the entire usage stat then the list gets bigger with:

 

Jynx, Tangela, Ninetales, Sableye

They can't handle Magmar in any sort there is no point of doing calcs with those ones. Good we are clear that Magmar needs to be switch in safely.

 

Tangela would be funny tho, it can setup a reflect when magmar uses belly drum, it could help a bit.

 

No one mentioned Golem?

 

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Golem: 130-154 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

0- Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magmar: 170-204 (98.8 - 118.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

I did

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No one mentioned Golem?

 

+6 252+ Atk Magmar Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Golem: 130-154 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

0- Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magmar: 170-204 (98.8 - 118.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

 

It's not about that Londar. I agree that Mach Punch may not kill Golem but so doesn't Espeed from +6 Linoone on Aggron/Steelix/Golem either. All of them learn EQ as well so even if Linoone tries to dig, it's screwed. Aggron lives +6 Iron Tail if I'm right, but Golem might not. Assuming Iron Tail Set, then Walrein lives +6 Espeed as I pointed out. 

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As i see it the difference is that Linoone was more of a "Mindless" Set-up-and-Sweep due to not having threatening weakness against the pokes it could set up against, since most walls/set up baits for Linoone didn't carry a Fighting move. With Magmar is a little different, there are obviously exceptions like Chansey, Clefable, P2 ( that could as well carry TWave and hope in paras ), a big part of the other possible set up baits i can think of usually carry something like a water move, or EQ. Plus weak priority etc...Like Double J already stated leaving room to some more checks.

 

 

Somewhat OT: I think the problem with Bellydrummers is somewhat caused by mixing future gens features ( Sitrus, Split, promiscuous moves ) and not "balancing" some of those aspects with other future gens features ( Like Sturdy, Sash, just to mention something that could potentially "check" Bellydrummers )

 

 

Anyway, don't really care about it getting banged to BL/OU or no. So good discussion

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hey guys. so i would like to point out that since we are not talking about one set anymore we should probably not pretend mag is running 2 berrys, mach, tpunch, fire punch, bdrum, + a way to get to salac(ie sub) while still having sitrus to boost health.

 

either you are running salac + sub and then have to give up some coverage and are more in danger of priority (since a 40 base non stab priority attack is not going to 1hko everything with priority even at +6) if you decided to run mach + 1 epunch, and then the coverage of that one e punch lost will give you more counters.

 

OR

 

you are running sitrus + bdrum + 3 attacks and then anything faster that can do decent damage will kill mag if it can live mach. + ofc the things that are 2hko'd.

 

 

mach on mag is significantly weaker then stab e speed on linoone and should not be treated as same thing. also remember fake out/espeed has higher priority then mach.

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hey guys. so i would like to point out that since we are not talking about one set anymore we should probably not pretend mag is running 2 berrys, mach, tpunch, fire punch, bdrum, + a way to get to salac(ie sub) while still having sitrus to boost health.

 

either you are running salac + sub and then have to give up some coverage and are more in danger of priority (since a 40 base non stab priority attack is not going to 1hko everything with priority even at +6) if you decided to run mach + 1 epunch, and then the coverage of that one e punch lost will give you more counters.

 

OR

 

you are running sitrus + bdrum + 3 attacks and then anything faster that can do decent damage will kill mag if it can live mach. + ofc the things that are 2hko'd.

 

 

mach on mag is significantly weaker then stab e speed on linoone and should not be treated as same thing. also remember fake out/espeed has higher priority then mach.

 

I'm talking about 158hp invested magmar with salac where most hits from pokemon it can set up on, puts it in salac range. At that point it outpaces your mach punch users. 

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I'm talking about 158hp invested magmar with salac where most hits from pokemon it can set up on, puts it in salac range. At that point it outpaces your mach punch users. 

k so 158/252/100? if so that puts a lot of pokemon within range of outspeeding it taunt'ing or encore'ing. and ofc just outspeeding when mag has no salac activate. also crobat, ninjask, trode, and swellow will outspeed meaning you get one kill then get revenged killed/forced out with not enough hp to try again+ no berry.

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k so 158/252/100? if so that puts a lot of pokemon within range of outspeeding it taunt'ing or encore'ing. and ofc just outspeeding when mag has no salac activate. also crobat, ninjask, trode, and swellow will outspeed meaning you get one kill then get revenged killed/forced out with not enough hp to try again+ no berry.

 

100 speed evs gives me 126 speed. At +1 speed I become 189 which outpaces your swellow and crobat (assuming no one runs +speed natures cuz we want max dmg right?). The thing is that you have the choice of choosing the pokemon that you want to set it up. Your chansey, vile, pory are not going to carry taunt or encore. Ninjask and Electrode though, fred pls. 

 

Also Linoone has just 7 base points higher than Magmar in speed, so why didn't we go for the same logic of taunting/encoring it? I hate how I keep referring back to Linoone and I really do apologize but I honestly haven't found a very compelling reason from anyone to let it stay because whatever solution you provide to beat Magmar could be said just as well for Linoone. 

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linoone being base 100 speed is a good difference and you know this nik (to be fair love linoone doesn't need to fully speed invested so there is that but if it chooses linoone could outspeed 90%+ of the tier magmar isn't as severe I guess). there are a punch of base 95s that get outsped and also there is still speed ties other base 100 pokes like tenta (which unless running salic poops on magmar as well)

long day right now so forgive some typos don't bite my head off

on a side note 68.5% - 80.8% is what +6 iron tail for linoone does to 4 hp aggron. and yes it was my breeder I gave yall for Christams you got one too iirc

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Not to be a uguu here, but I find it funny how ppl say "Oh you run a wall team, lol so you deserve to get swept". That is in no way true. A 252hp/attk Magmar can set up vs something like plume, chansey, misd or whatever pokemon it faces and if it carries salac berry, then the move that you hit it with, puts it in salac range thus making it sweepable. I've seen most ppl run calcs with jolly magmar but an Adamant magar with +1 speed would ohko most of these pokemon like grumpig, altaria etc. This would also beat pacy pokemon like tentacruel/xatu as well. L

 

The problem with pokemon like Magmar and Linoone isn't just its ability to sweep wall teams, but every team in general. If you're so hell bent on breaking wall teams, why not run a bellydrum azumarill / quagsire. They have quite a few set up bait as well but the difference between this and magmar is how it doesn't outpace half of the metagame. For pokemon like azu/quag, you can bring a fast pokemon like manectric, tenta, haunter, xatu, swellow and force that pokemon to switch out. That is your wall breaker.

 

Linoone could get walled by misd/haunter/steelix yet it gets banned. I get that espeed priority beats other pokemon but it's not like it doesn't have counters. Last time I checked Magmar has higher base spdef and attack than Linoone, giving it more set up opportunities. 

 

Linoone and Magmar are just down right broken, I don't think it's convenient to run physically defensive grumpig in this meta or donphan because lets be honest, with all these gligars, exeggutors, vileplumes, claydols running around, donphan just gets shat all over. Also again, I like how people are mentioning "oh you run wall teams" but their answer to beat magmar are basically walls like grumpig, donphan, altaria. 

 

If people are so concerned with wall teams, why not bring back Linoone because from what I read, if you run an offensive team then you can stop Linoone from setting up. Problem solved.

So let me just go ahead and say your whole argument is crap because you hilariously try to compare Linoone to Magmar. It seems like I have to be the kindergarden schoolteacher and tell you why they are fundamentally different.

 

First of all, Linoone had way few counters than Magmar did, but more importantly it was impossible to revenge kill a Linoone while it is much easier to revenge kill a Magmar. Linoone's biggest counter was Steelix. Misdreavus could easily be beaten with Thief or Iron Tail while Haunter wasn't used much and could still be outpaced and killed.

 

It's just laughable when I think about it. We are talking about a +2 priority STAB base 80 move against a NON STAB base 40 +1 priority move with arguable less coverage. Linoone's attack had 3 times as much base power as Magmar's priority. Linoone could not be revenge killed by faster priority users because of Extremespeed, which basically meant that offense had no answers to it.

Linoone also had base 100 speed, while 7 base speed difference may seem irrelevant to the ignorant it does mean that you can tie with other base 100s like Tenta and down right outpace Haunter and Xatu, two things that shit on Magmar.

 

Then the other difference is that Magmar absolutely needs Salac berry to sweep. While Linoone did not need this at all because of the +2 priority and higher base speed. Linoone could also set up on more Pokémon in the meta than Magmar can. I'll make a list for you so it's easy to comprehend and so you'll never come up with this bullshit comparison ever again:

 

Pro's of Linoone over Magmar:

  • Less counters
  • No checks
  • No need for Salac to sweep
  • Base 100 makes able to outpace base 95s and tie with other 100s
  • +2 priority
  • 80 base priority
  • STAB priority
  • Breaks all playstyles

 

Magmar is a very good Belly Drum sweeper but like you stated it is only a real threat when it gets Salac Berry. Sitrus Magmar is really easily dealt with. Magmar can also not afford to run SubDrum because it will lose either it's priority, making it easily revenge killable or loses Thunderpunch meaning that a lot of shit can wall it even at +6. So the only real threat is Salac Drum Magmar with 3 attacks. Sitrus Magmar is way easier to deal with. And IMO Salac Magmar is not even a threat to stall as stall has multiple ways of dealing with Magmar.

 

I know what your way of stalling is. Toxicing things and wearing them down with Wishers and Protect users. While that's all fine and dandy to have a successful stall team in a meta where there are multiple offensive threats, you need speed and disruption. I know this is Egyptian to you as we never had a meta with multiple offensive threats so running 6 slow walls was easily the best way. But in a metagame were offense is highly viable it's time to step out of your shell and start realizing your wall teams are outdated. Why do future stall teams use Prankster Pokémon or Scarf Tar? Because they need disruption and speed. Why? Stall had to evolve and adapt to the more offensive metagame.

 

I never saw you use different playstyles either so I can understand why can't seem to think out of your own box. But I highly recommend you start building teams that aren't stall so you understand how these teams work. I played all 3 styles and hybrids of them. But this is kind of off topic.

 

Back to Magmar, as we already stated Salac is the biggest threat. Well knowing this, why would you even attack Magmar when it is out? There are multiple switch ins to Magmar that deal with it even when it goes for a BD. This is true for stall and balance (offense does not really have switches). You don't even need to lose a Pokémon to Magmar if you play intelligently and adapted a bit to it. Quagsire is on a lot of stall teams and it is a perfect switch in to BD Mag. You shouldn't attack it if you fear Salac.

 

Crobat, fast Tentacruel, Screen/Wish Xatu are all viable for a stall playstyle and they can all switch in to Magmar while it goes for a +6 or attacks with it's pathetically weak Fire Punch if unboosted, And if it attacks, it means you can force it out and it has to find another opportunity to switch in. Which is extremely hard for Salac reliant Pokémon. It's like you are not thinking and are saying you have to attack Magmar or else it fucks you up or something. Even defensive Kangaskhan can come in and if it goes for BD you'll have to Fake Out, and yeah then you probably need to sack a Pokémon to get the last Fake Out off, because defensive Kang needs two Fake Outs.

 

Then I'm not even talking about the Pokémon that down right don't care if it sets up which include Quagsire, Shuckle and Lanturn. Two Pokémon also highly viable on stall teams. While Impish Granbull can also take a hit. While Golem might arguably become more viable with the rise of BD Magmar too.

 

The things it can set up on with a Salac is also limited as Stall often caries Toxic/Para users and stall should evolve into using more Encore users with the more set up Pokémon popping up in the meta. Yeah you can argue 'ZOMFG but if it runs Lum!!!! Oh if it runs Sitrus!!!' we all know, these are way easier to deal with than the Salac variant. If your stall team has either Tenta (and if you are not using a fast bulky tenta idk what you are doing), Xatu, Crobat, Quagsire, Golem, Shuckle, Lanturn, bulky Altaria, Cleric Bull, Fake Out Kanga, CB Lee then the Lum or Sitrus variant is really not that big of a threat. And if you are not using one or two of these in your team idek. Note that Salac variants run even less speed so things like Gligar, Kanga, Misdreavus, Jolly Kingler and more can outpace as long as you don't hit it.

 

Note that I've only been talking about stall teams and that balance and offense will have multiple checks to this thing making it really not as effective as it seems.

 

Really Nik it's time to cut the crap. Pokémon like these is what make our meta evolve. You see that 50% Vileplume usage? Well this is a thing to break that and make other things viable because it has multiple things that can deal with it and stall has loads of answers while the other playstyles really have a wide option for checking it. I know you like to use your Clefable, Hypno, Vileplume core but like it or not stall evolves too and it changes.

 

This is a perfect example of a Pokémon that can be dealt with but does force our metagame to evolve which is really important for a healthy metagame. A healthy metagame, ironically enough, is never a completely balanced one.

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So let me just go ahead and say your whole argument is crap because you hilariously try to compare Linoone to Magmar. It seems like I have to be the kindergarden schoolteacher and tell you why they are fundamentally different.

 

First of all, Linoone had way few counters than Magmar did, but more importantly it was impossible to revenge kill a Linoone while it is much easier to revenge kill a Magmar. Linoone's biggest counter was Steelix. Misdreavus could easily be beaten with Thief or Iron Tail while Haunter wasn't used much and could still be outpaced and killed.

 

It's just laughable when I think about it. We are talking about a +2 priority STAB base 80 move against a NON STAB base 40 +1 priority move with arguable less coverage. Linoone's attack had 3 times as much base power as Magmar's priority. Linoone could not be revenge killed by faster priority users because of Extremespeed, which basically meant that offense had no answers to it.

Linoone also had base 100 speed, while 7 base speed difference may seem irrelevant to the ignorant it does mean that you can tie with other base 100s like Tenta and down right outpace Haunter and Xatu, two things that shit on Magmar.

 

Then the other difference is that Magmar absolutely needs Salac berry to sweep. While Linoone did not need this at all because of the +2 priority and higher base speed. Linoone could also set up on more Pokémon in the meta than Magmar can. I'll make a list for you so it's easy to comprehend and so you'll never come up with this bullshit comparison ever again:

 

Pro's of Linoone over Magmar:

  • Less counters
  • No checks
  • No need for Salac to sweep
  • Base 100 makes able to outpace base 95s and tie with other 100s
  • +2 priority
  • 80 base priority
  • STAB priority
  • Breaks all playstyles

 

Magmar is a very good Belly Drum sweeper but like you stated it is only a real threat when it gets Salac Berry. Sitrus Magmar is really easily dealt with. Magmar can also not afford to run SubDrum because it will lose either it's priority, making it easily revenge killable or loses Thunderpunch meaning that a lot of shit can wall it even at +6. So the only real threat is Salac Drum Magmar with 3 attacks. Sitrus Magmar is way easier to deal with. And IMO Salac Magmar is not even a threat to stall as stall has multiple ways of dealing with Magmar.

 

I know what your way of stalling is. Toxicing things and wearing them down with Wishers and Protect users. While that's all fine and dandy to have a successful stall team in a meta where there are multiple offensive threats, you need speed and disruption. I know this is Egyptian to you as we never had a meta with multiple offensive threats so running 6 slow walls was easily the best way. But in a metagame were offense is highly viable it's time to step out of your shell and start realizing your wall teams are outdated. Why do future stall teams use Prankster Pokémon or Scarf Tar? Because they need disruption and speed. Why? Stall had to evolve and adapt to the more offensive metagame.

 

I never saw you use different playstyles either so I can understand why can't seem to think out of your own box. But I highly recommend you start building teams that aren't stall so you understand how these teams work. I played all 3 styles and hybrids of them. But this is kind of off topic.

 

Back to Magmar, as we already stated Salac is the biggest threat. Well knowing this, why would you even attack Magmar when it is out? There are multiple switch ins to Magmar that deal with it even when it goes for a BD. This is true for stall and balance (offense does not really have switches). You don't even need to lose a Pokémon to Magmar if you play intelligently and adapted a bit to it. Quagsire is on a lot of stall teams and it is a perfect switch in to BD Mag. You shouldn't attack it if you fear Salac.

 

Crobat, fast Tentacruel, Screen/Wish Xatu are all viable for a stall playstyle and they can all switch in to Magmar while it goes for a +6 or attacks with it's pathetically weak Fire Punch if unboosted, And if it attacks, it means you can force it out and it has to find another opportunity to switch in. Which is extremely hard for Salac reliant Pokémon. It's like you are not thinking and are saying you have to attack Magmar or else it fucks you up or something. Even defensive Kangaskhan can come in and if it goes for BD you'll have to Fake Out, and yeah then you probably need to sack a Pokémon to get the last Fake Out off, because defensive Kang needs two Fake Outs.

 

Then I'm not even talking about the Pokémon that down right don't care if it sets up which include Quagsire, Shuckle and Lanturn. Two Pokémon also highly viable on stall teams. While Impish Granbull can also take a hit. While Golem might arguably become more viable with the rise of BD Magmar too.

 

The things it can set up on with a Salac is also limited as Stall often caries Toxic/Para users and stall should evolve into using more Encore users with the more set up Pokémon popping up in the meta. Yeah you can argue 'ZOMFG but if it runs Lum!!!! Oh if it runs Sitrus!!!' we all know, these are way easier to deal with than the Salac variant. If your stall team has either Tenta (and if you are not using a fast bulky tenta idk what you are doing), Xatu, Crobat, Quagsire, Golem, Shuckle, Lanturn, bulky Altaria, Cleric Bull, Fake Out Kanga, CB Lee then the Lum or Sitrus variant is really not that big of a threat. And if you are not using one or two of these in your team idek. Note that Salac variants run even less speed so things like Gligar, Kanga, Misdreavus, Jolly Kingler and more can outpace as long as you don't hit it.

 

Note that I've only been talking about stall teams and that balance and offense will have multiple checks to this thing making it really not as effective as it seems.

 

Really Nik it's time to cut the crap. Pokémon like these is what make our meta evolve. You see that 50% Vileplume usage? Well this is a thing to break that and make other things viable because it has multiple things that can deal with it and stall has loads of answers while the other playstyles really have a wide option for checking it. I know you like to use your Clefable, Hypno, Vileplume core but like it or not stall evolves too and it changes.

 

This is a perfect example of a Pokémon that can be dealt with but does force our metagame to evolve which is really important for a healthy metagame. A healthy metagame, ironically enough, is never a completely balanced one.

 

Linoone had very few counters? Please. Steelix, Aggron, Omastar, Haunter. Offense had no answers for it? Wtf are CB Aggron and Haunter then? Walls? Lol. Most bulky water types like Cloyster and Walrein even survive +6 Espeed which make sure that Linoone cannot sweep wall teams. Please mention some valid counters to Magmar other than Quagsire.

 

I would like to see how Linoone breaks a wall style with steelix and haunter in the same if you feel that magmar can't break it. Linoone has lesser spdef bulk than Magmar thus making it weaker to most special attacks. Less counters again, I laugh at that. I didn't realize not having to use salac berry gives Linoone instant advantage over Magmar. Wow. 

 

I can't believe how you're using the revenge killing argument for keeping magmar because the truth is that its offensive power is capable of finishing any pokemon off. Judging from this, why don't we unban Scizor seeing as how it can be revenge killed by so many things?

 

Why the fuck does priority matter in this situation? Priority matters to beat priority . Otherwise if you're faster you can finish it off with a move. 

 

Yeah as I thought so, your definition of stall is clearly gen4+, so for now, my definition of stall is the definition of stall in Pokemmo. 

 

You clearly haven't seen me enough if you haven't seen me run various playstyles. I think my box is pretty big seeing as how I've got to where I am right now.

 

Again you mention Quagsire as the only and true valid counter / switch in to Magmar. So having Quagsire on multiple teams makes it okay? It's the same bs argument about having Scizor in UU when Slowking was around a lot because that was the only true counter. What do you want me to do vs a Magmar then? Lets not forget 252 speed Jolly Magmar is faster than Hitmonlee which makes Mach Punch useless. So basically you have no way of knowing what spread the opposing Magmar is since you conveniently decided to do nothing about it, which means your CB Lee is dead.

 

Crobat, Fast Tentacruel, Wish/Screen Xatu are viable for stall playstyle? No shit, because last time I checked so was Omastar, Steelix, Walrein and Aggron if you prefer offensive to beat Linoone. Also I lol'd at Crobat switching in on +6 Magmar. 

 

252+ SpA Crobat Sludge Bomb vs. 158 HP / 0 SpD Magmar: 66-78 (41.2 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

GG your revenge killer. The only way this would work is if you run haze. But :

 

252+ Atk Magmar Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 92-110 (57.5 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

So I'll just wait for another time to come back in and bdrum but I might need support for that. Assuming that your initial argument didn't have haze why don't I run Tentacruel also to stop Magmar? It's not that hard for a salac reliant pokemon to come in again. If you switch it in on a predicted hit and if they are bulky after bdrum, then the hit leaves them at salac range assuming you just watched it go to +6 while doing nothing. 

 

Yeah no one runs fake out on Kanga since ppl like coverage so they go for return / crunch / fire or eq with rest. Defensive Kangas would run wish/protect. But hey let me sack my coverage or support for Magmar. Also if you mention Fake Out has other uses such as to beat flail/reversal-ers, then endure. Also let me just say that running EQ or wish/protect combo is always more beneficial than running fake out.

 

I can't tell if you're joking or being serious about using Impish Granbull. Golem could be more viable with bdrum magmar around? No fucking way because lets bring back Linoone since that would make Aggron more viable.

 

If you're not using a bulky water type, steelix or at least a fast bulky Misd in your team then I don't know what kind of stall people were running back when Linoone was around.

 

I'm pretty sure Scizor also made a lot of pokemon like Manectric, Zangoose, Kangaskhan, Xatu. Crobat way more viable as it encouraged to run fire moves or revenge kill it, so please Think, cut the crap about how running one pokemon made another viable as an argument to keep something broken in. Lets bring back Linoone if you're so keen on breaking Vileplume and reducing that 50% usage. But it looks like you have trouble beating Vileplume without using a bellydrummer, may be if your box was big then you could think of other ways of beating it.

 

Thanks but I don't use a core of Clefable, Hypno and Vileplume all in the same team. Hell I even sold my wish hypno quite some time back so you won't even be seeing me run one in a while. This is clearly obvious since I'm sure you've only watched some of my matches in the previous meta and none that has happened as of late.

 

Also I like how you mention not to hit it if you fear salac because it is sub drum and if I don't hit it. then it will definitely go into salac range. So then your tentacruel+crobat+xatu becomes useless. But wait, let's run priority+tenta/cro/xatu to beat Magmar. So the situation I see is:

 

1) Hit Magmar which either result it in not bdrumming or it gets bdrum with salac+mach (deadliest combo)

2) Don't hit it and sack whatever is on field because we got tentacruel and crobat to the rescue.

 

And assuming we activate the deadliest combo, let's also run Quagsire because of how so viable it is to stop the shitstorm. 

 

Wow some choice I got!

Edited by NikhilR
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Lel Nik. I'm done but ypu are not going to change so I won't bother replying to it.

Edit: actually read your whole comment and now you are comparing Magmar to Scizor. Go home Nik you're drunk. >gen4+ stall 'im talking pokemmo stall'. Its like... Wow... Its like playstyles cant evolve???

Edited by ThinkNice
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