NikhilR Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) "Oh hey look, that asshole Nik wants to ban another offensive pokemon. That wall uguu" Yes and I'm back guys. Firstly let me say that I think Hitmonlee is very much needed in our current UU meta because it seems to be one of the few pokemon that can very efficiently break wall teams. While this is true, I think it can do this with a lot of ease compared to other pokemon and in a way possibly even sweep with the following set: Bulk Up Mach Punch Blaze Kick Superpower Most of us when we encounter a Lee, we assume it to be the Choice Band so we run a defensive core and probably run protect on a few of them. This Lee can bulk up on a predicted switch or protect and continue to boost its attack. This sort of Lee can probably even go 252hp/attk because mach punch usually takes care of the priority so even if you do try hitting it physically, you might not do as much damage as you think you should be doing because of the def boost. With the absence of Slowking, which was the one and only hard counter, it just got stronger and I'm sure if you look at the usage stats you'll see a rise in Hitmonlee. For now my opinion is that it should be banned under the offensive characteristic. But I would like to hear a discussion on it like we had with Gengar because I'd like to know what the community's stance on it is. There are counters to this set I guess by running a bulky nidoqueen/tentacruel/Xatu but is that enough reason to keep Lee in UU ? So please discuss in a civil manner. Edited May 9, 2015 by NikhilR Instagramlol, Mike, DrCraig and 3 others 6 Link to comment
dedegendut Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 pursuit lee is viable i guess hue Link to comment
Zorres00 Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Yeah I saw we ban it, too scary and you always need certain pokes to beat it. No perfect wall for. like gligar doesnt have recovery so you need wish support hypno takes a ton from dedge Link to comment
richardbenzina Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) grumpig with thik fat should work even altaria is a good counter... lee doens't deserve to be BL Edited May 10, 2015 by Noad Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 grumpig with thik fat should work 252 Atk Choice Band Hitmonlee Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Grumpig: 92-110 (49.1 - 58.8%) -- 71.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery almost Robofiend and Kanzo 2 Link to comment
YagamiNoir Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) I'll make this civil, but again, we'll skip the usual loops. Under the Bulk Up premise,Hitmonlee loses instantaneous offensive presence. It should thusly be easier to respond to. Edited May 9, 2015 by YagamiNoir DoubleJ and Havsha 2 Link to comment
DrCraig Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Hitmonlee is a force but it should be minded that the CB set includes - Superpower - Mach Punch leaving 2 slots open which containt any 2 of these - Double-Edge/Return - Rock Slide - Blaze Kick - Earthquake - Thief Hitmonlee struggles with this if it is a set with mach punch. With being restricted to 2 moves as coverage it is susceptible to being walled by Tentacruel, Vileplume, Altaria, Grumpig, Haunter, Exegguto, Gligar and others. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
PandaJJ Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 I'll make this civil, but again, we'll skip the usual loops. Under the Bulk Up premise,Hitmonlee loses instantaneous offensive presence. It should thusly be easier to respond to. I wanted to point out this too - hitmonlee needs either bulk up or choice band to pose a threat, both of which have considerable drawbacks. I'm interested in seeing a discussion on this, though. karimologia and Poulpatine 2 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Hitmonlee is a force but it should be minded that the CB set includes - Superpower - Mach Punch leaving 2 slots open which containt any 2 of these - Double-Edge/Return - Rock Slide - Blaze Kick - Earthquake - Thief Hitmonlee struggles with this if it is a set with mach punch. With being restricted to 2 moves as coverage it is susceptible to being walled by Tentacruel, Vileplume, Altaria, Grumpig, Haunter, Exegguto, Gligar and others. Blaze kick+return hit all of those. Tentacruel can't really take hits too well, unless you run max hp def bold, in which case you're outsped by hitmonlee and can only 3hko hitmonlee in return. Blaze kick 2hkos exeggutor/vileplume, ohkos haunter. Altaria is pretty bad in general, but is only 3hko'ed by return from hitmonlee, so it can kind of pivot with natural cure+rest. Psychic types outside of slowking have been pretty meh since split, pursuit trapping is too easy to pull off and makes psychic types not very durable. Kanzo 1 Link to comment
TJXD Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Choice Band Hitmonlee Rock Slide vs. Altaria: 113-134 (62 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery even altaria is a good counter... lee doens't deserve to be BL Choice Band Hitmonlee Superpower vs. Gligar: 61-72 (35.4 - 41.8%) -- 87.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery I think Hitmonlee right now is healthy for the meta as Nik said considering the usage stats. Its an efficent wallbreaker with coverage and its defences aren't much to marvel at. At the end of the day , People are gonna be running CB on it, It can be effectively played around. Link to comment
YagamiNoir Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Choice Band Hitmonlee Rock Slide vs. Altaria: 113-134 (62 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Choice Band Hitmonlee Superpower vs. Gligar: 61-72 (35.4 - 41.8%) -- 87.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery I think Hitmonlee right now is healthy for the meta as Nik said considering the usage stats. Its an efficent wallbreaker with coverage and its defences aren't much to marvel at. At the end of the day , People are gonna be running CB on it, It can be effectively played around. Choice Band Hitmonlee Rock Slide vs. Altaria: 113-134 (62 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Choice Band Hitmonlee Superpower vs. Gligar: 61-72 (35.4 - 41.8%) -- 87.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery I think Hitmonlee right now is healthy for the meta as Nik said considering the usage stats. Its an efficent wallbreaker with coverage and its defences aren't much to marvel at. At the end of the day , People are gonna be running CB on it, It can be effectively played around. Nik implied the stats to justify how banworthy it is instead of the balance. You can see it both ways I guess Link to comment
OldKeith Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Lee cannot come in on many attacks, and not repeatedly anyway. I don't think it is banworthy. Choice band, as mentioned above, can be played around, while Bulk Up reduces coverage. Blue, DoubleJ, karimologia and 2 others 5 Link to comment
NikhilR Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 I'll make this civil, but again, we'll skip the usual loops. Under the Bulk Up premise,Hitmonlee loses instantaneous offensive presence. It should thusly be easier to respond to. It does lose that instantaneous offense but imo that could be for the better. If you bulk up on a switch, you can make sure that you can use the right move to hit a particular pokemon. For eg if you bulk up and your opponent brings Misd, you can freely blaze kick. Or if someone brings vileplume to tank superpower, you can reach +1 and blaze kick it there. It also works well against protect teams that are built for countering CBers, which not necessarily is a bad thing, but just pointing out. Hitmonlee is a force but it should be minded that the CB set includes - Superpower - Mach Punch leaving 2 slots open which containt any 2 of these - Double-Edge/Return - Rock Slide - Blaze Kick - Earthquake - Thief Hitmonlee struggles with this if it is a set with mach punch. With being restricted to 2 moves as coverage it is susceptible to being walled by Tentacruel, Vileplume, Altaria, Grumpig, Haunter, Exegguto, Gligar and others. True but what are your opinions on a bulk up set? Blaze kick+return hit all of those. Tentacruel can't really take hits too well, unless you run max hp def bold, in which case you're outsped by hitmonlee and can only 3hko hitmonlee in return. Blaze kick 2hkos exeggutor/vileplume, ohkos haunter. Altaria is pretty bad in general, but is only 3hko'ed by return from hitmonlee, so it can kind of pivot with natural cure+rest. Psychic types outside of slowking have been pretty meh since split, pursuit trapping is too easy to pull off and makes psychic types not very durable. This. Also might I add that Tentacruel has a bad base def so it can't switch in on attacks very often. Also what is Altaria going to do Lee apart from Toxic? Because AA doesn't seem to be very viable also. Lee cannot come in on many attacks, and not repeatedly anyway. I don't think it is banworthy. Choice band, as mentioned above, can be played around, while Bulk Up reduces coverage. You're right about it not being able to come in on many attacks Keith, but double switching or predicting recover on a turn is a general thing. Also given how Lee has a very good base spdef, if it gets wish support, it can switch in on attacks from blastoise, seismic tosses, special porys, viles etc. Also if you double switch vs something you can beat, you can bulk up on that turn to your advantage because either the user protects that turn which is the worst case scenario since that allows you to get to +2. or you get to +1 when it switches out to something to tank a hit but instead Lee chooses the right move to cripple you. ------------------------------------------- While I agree with the fact that Lee loses a bit of coverage for the bulk up set, especially the one I have mentioned, it is impossible to run a team to cover all these sorts of weaknesses because chances are, more or less likely, that the set Lee has can hurt you bad. Link to comment
DrCraig Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 True but what are your opinions on a bulk up set? I don't know if you guys think the bulk set is superior, but I do not. I believe a bulk up hitmonlee discussion is the same as a sword dance Zangoose discussion and a sword dance Kingler. I think the bulk up set is nice for the meta since it is so wall heavy, similar to Zangoose as a wall breaker. I think the CB set is superior, probably the best CB user in the tier. I really cannot form a solid statement on what I feel about it. My brain isn't working. DoubleJ 1 Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 So please discuss in a civil manner. i love this also i tested bulk set with art when the split first started and found it far inferior to cb set. the ability to choose your moves help but hitmonlee is so fragile that 90% of the time it doesnt really matter and the cb woulda been better. the way i see it is lee forces people to run multiple phsyical walls but so do a dozen other uu's that i can name and these walls counter them too. even without lee you'd still have all these cb heavy hitting pokes forcing people to run a dual defensive core of physical walls. imo i rather have a meta with no one or two perfect walls that counter everything and have a meta that punishes you for running 6 walls. lee can wall break and punish you for bad team building but it rarely if ever sweeps. further more i would like to point out that diglette can revenge kill any cb locked super lee 252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 127-150 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO or sub/endure to leichi on anything other then cb locked mach. +1 252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 124-147 (98.4 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO just cause i think it is relevant to this discussion and the viability of lee. DoubleJ and karimologia 2 Link to comment
YagamiNoir Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 It does lose that instantaneous offense but imo that could be for the better. If you bulk up on a switch, you can make sure that you can use the right move to hit a particular pokemon. For eg if you bulk up and your opponent brings Misd, you can freely blaze kick. Or if someone brings vileplume to tank superpower, you can reach +1 and blaze kick it there. It also works well against protect teams that are built for countering CBers, which not necessarily is a bad thing, but just pointing out. ------------------------------------------- While I agree with the fact that Lee loses a bit of coverage for the bulk up set, especially the one I have mentioned, it is impossible to run a team to cover all these sorts of weaknesses because chances are, more or less likely, that the set Lee has can hurt you bad. How so? Under said premise, many other Pokemon that wouldn't be able to check it otherwise can check/counter it far easier if Hitmonlee has to waste a turn to earn that +1. Even if you're able to switch moves, you either lose priority or have less coverage, so while you have the matter of choice, it's not like those pokes won't be able to do nothing to you anyway, unlike the Choice Band scenario where a wrong switch could prove sudden death. Project teams that are countering Choice Band users should have an easier time faring against it, since while they might be taken aback by it not instantaneously attacking, a Hitmonlee that needs to set up is ultimately one that is easier to respond with. Depending on the set and what Altaria has, Altaria can either phaze it (you'd laugh, but whatever) or Toxic it, unless it has Rock Slide, in which a Bulk Up set lacks the moveslot for. Then again, "still dies against the CB set so no." What I'm saying is that different sets having different counters isn't necessarily a bad thing. It can't touch most things as well if it runs Bulk Up (and some if most of the whole Psychic scenarios are just hiding behind the Pursuit argument). I've said this before and I've said it again, especially if you're going to bring up double switch and whatever scenario that involves things having safe switch ins. It goes for all things and can't be justified. If such scenarios can happen, Psychic types pulling off double switches/predicting Pursuits can also happen, and is a skill that should be known by most players especially if this is so common. Even then, I personally think Superpower contradicts the whole bulk things you're mentioning unless you're saying the set doesn't use it. Link to comment
NikhilR Posted May 10, 2015 Author Share Posted May 10, 2015 (edited) i love this also i tested bulk set with art when the split first started and found it far inferior to cb set. the ability to choose your moves help but hitmonlee is so fragile that 90% of the time it doesnt really matter and the cb woulda been better. the way i see it is lee forces people to run multiple phsyical walls but so do a dozen other uu's that i can name and these walls counter them too. even without lee you'd still have all these cb heavy hitting pokes forcing people to run a dual defensive core of physical walls. imo i rather have a meta with no one or two perfect walls that counter everything and have a meta that punishes you for running 6 walls. lee can wall break and punish you for bad team building but it rarely if ever sweeps. further more i would like to point out that diglette can revenge kill any cb locked super lee 252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 127-150 (100.7 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO or sub/endure to leichi on anything other then cb locked mach. +1 252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 124-147 (98.4 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO just cause i think it is relevant to this discussion and the viability of lee. Fair enough if you tested it and it didn't seem that effective. I haven't tried it out myself and I'm just basing it off theory because I've seen what CB can do and I thought that Bulk Up would be more deadly. I'll give it a try myself sometime next week (hopefully). I like the idea of revenge killing lee :P How so? Under said premise, many other Pokemon that wouldn't be able to check it otherwise can check/counter it far easier if Hitmonlee has to waste a turn to earn that +1. Even if you're able to switch moves, you either lose priority or have less coverage, so while you have the matter of choice, it's not like those pokes won't be able to do nothing to you anyway, unlike the Choice Band scenario where a wrong switch could prove sudden death. Project teams that are countering Choice Band users should have an easier time faring against it, since while they might be taken aback by it not instantaneously attacking, a Hitmonlee that needs to set up is ultimately one that is easier to respond with. Depending on the set and what Altaria has, Altaria can either phaze it (you'd laugh, but whatever) or Toxic it, unless it has Rock Slide, in which a Bulk Up set lacks the moveslot for. Then again, "still dies against the CB set so no." What I'm saying is that different sets having different counters isn't necessarily a bad thing. It can't touch most things as well if it runs Bulk Up (and some if most of the whole Psychic scenarios are just hiding behind the Pursuit argument). I've said this before and I've said it again, especially if you're going to bring up double switch and whatever scenario that involves things having safe switch ins. It goes for all things and can't be justified. If such scenarios can happen, Psychic types pulling off double switches/predicting Pursuits can also happen, and is a skill that should be known by most players especially if this is so common. Even then, I personally think Superpower contradicts the whole bulk things you're mentioning unless you're saying the set doesn't use it. That very much depends on the pokemon you are using to check it. For eg you can switch steelix into a banded return to tank it and at that time you have the advantage. But when Hitmonlee is at +2 def, eq won't do much dmg and the next turn superpower kills you. Same thing applies to vileplume when it tanks the superpower. Giga/Sludge are mostly 3hkos if I'm right so once I reach +2, I can blaze kick for the ohko. The only check that can come in and kill a lee setting up would be exeggutor. Gligar if it has SD would be pretty decent as well but for those people who run toxic over SD might be screwed a bit especially if you consider how gligar has no recovery move. May be it is just me, but altaria is a terrible pokemon to run in general. Phazing is fair but all it does is just stall out the problem, not solve it. So the next time you try to phaze, you will take a massive hit. Toxic is a better answer but if that Lee has lum, then it is at +2. So Superpower becomes a 2hko on a 252hp/100def altaria because I assume people run spdef investment on it. I was referring to the double switching so that Lee can switch in safely because an argument was made about how Lee can't switch in all the time. Also as I mentioned before, Lee has a great base spdef so it can switch into special attacks from pory/vile easily. Edited May 10, 2015 by NikhilR Link to comment
fredrichnietze Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 if lee has wish support it can switch in vs some special attackers but with only 4 hp invest like most lee's it can only take 2-3 hits form most things. and when i tested lee the problems i ran into with bulk set, is that if your opponent brings a counter to lee you just have to immediately switch out after you bulk, or stay in and die. the counter takes no damage switching while you bulk'd and unless you stay in with your fragile bulk you just wasted a turn. this works against some things but most of lee's counters can live 1-2 +1 hits then 1-2hko it. further more if you run hi jump kick to get around the - att/def drops from super you have to worry about killing yourself with protect/misses. also idk if someone mentioned protect scouting but it works very well vs lee. especially since super only has 5 pp 8 maxed. and after that is gone there is a significantly larger number of safe switch ins. as to pursuit i see it as a bit overrated. sure it works great vs slow xatu and maybe a few other slow psychic's, but haunter outspeeds, and most pokemon dont really fear pursuit. with cb lock you want to do as much damage as you possibly can before you are forced to switch out and lee doesnt have the recovery or bulk to switch in often unless your opponent lets you switch in with his/her misplays. Link to comment
Robofiend Posted May 10, 2015 Share Posted May 10, 2015 Nah There needs to be more time in between UU bans, we've had 4 (i think?) in the past month and the metagame needs to settle some more before we throw more pokes out of it. fredrichnietze and YagamiNoir 2 Link to comment
BurntZebra Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Nah There needs to be more time in between UU bans, we've had 4 (i think?) in the past month and the metagame needs to settle some more before we throw more pokes out of it. Well I kind of disagree. It should be fairly obvious that slowking was the only counter to hitmonlee and that just hit the road to OU. I don't think UU tier council should waste time keeping something OP in the tier, just to see if people make up shitty gimmicks to handle hitmonlee. DrCraig 1 Link to comment
Gunthug Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 Well I kind of disagree. It should be fairly obvious that slowking was the only counter to hitmonlee and that just hit the road to OU. I don't think UU tier council should waste time keeping something OP in the tier, just to see if people make up shitty gimmicks to handle hitmonlee. Endure salac bounce ariados beats banded lee all day DrCraig and Robofiend 2 Link to comment
NikhilR Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Endure salac bounce ariados beats banded lee all day Mach Punch though! Draekyn 1 Link to comment
NikhilR Posted May 17, 2015 Author Share Posted May 17, 2015 So yesterday I had the opportunity to try out Bulk Up Lee on 2 occasions. It was very inferior compared to the CB set, like how Fred mentioned. But ultimately I think that it all depends on the pokemon that you are using to counter it. From my matches yesterday, I observed that Gligar, Claydol and Exeggutor are the best answers to Hitmonlee because they have the ability to switch in on a bulk up lee and 2-3 hko it. In the case of Gligar, I bulk up'd on the switch to Gligar. Then I bulk up'd again and Aerial ace did around 40% to me. At that range, +2 Blaze Kick was only a 3hko so I definitely wouldn't have won in that scenario if I kept hitting but if I continued to bulk up continuously, then may be I would've had a shot to win. Same thing applies to Claydol except that Psychic is always a 2hko so Lee loses no matter what the situation is. Exeggutor - This fucked me over a lot yesterday (I think Destruct brah knows this too well) . I bulked up on the switch to Exeggutor. Now Exegg's Psychic has a 56% chance to ohko Lee. Blaze Kick at +1 is a 2hko. so depending on the Psychic rolls, I would/would not have won that scenario. But at the same time I could not bulk up again because +2 Blaze Kick isn't a 2hko. Which means that that Lee would definitely be equivalent to a CB lee at that point and hence would probs not be in a position to sweep. For now I'm gonna try creating a 252hp/attk Hitmonlee (lol), and see how it does. Link to comment
raaidn Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 For now I'm gonna try creating a 252hp/attk Hitmonlee (lol), and see how it does. #scouted RysPicz and fredrichnietze 2 Link to comment
Bestfriends Posted May 18, 2015 Share Posted May 18, 2015 (edited) Here is what I think on Lee, lee is a good attacker, but can't really sponge hits that well. Lee can be countered by having Bold Exeggutor or having something to burn it like Houndoom with W-o-W. Hitmonlee can be outplayed, but like you said, Lee can be a bit dangerous and Lee could predict Doom coming in and just do a fighting move on it. Hound is at an advantage, it out speeds Hitmonlee's base stats, so if Doom is in and Lee wants to kill the dog, W-o-W it! If you are coming in with Doom, be careful, Lee can over predict your switch and do SuperPower on you. My overall opinion on Lee, it is not much of a threat as of 5/17/15. Edited May 18, 2015 by Noad No need to quote the OP when responding :) ~ Link to comment
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