Improve the trainer tower

[MisterHide]

The tower exist since the august 2014 update, and I've heard lot of people complaining in game and on the forum about its too based on luck, not rewarding enough, and very boring to farm.

 

How it his right now: Entrence fee is 5k, you can get a maximum of 2750 battle point for defeating the NPCs of the all 8 stages, adding the cost of the items you use between each battle (revive, potions, berries etc)

 

I think a good way to improve the tower would be:

 

-Add tiering when starting the battle tower (Ubers OU UU etc) in order to make casual gamers more interested about competitive play and make competitive player want to do the tower, difficulty would raise proportionally for each stages, with teambuild based on the viability tier concerned threads (using C/D rank for the firsts stages, S/A rank for the finals ones).

 

-Enforce pvp clauses, because its very annoying to see NPC using hax item and some pokemons spamming reflect.

 

-Increase the reward (or decrease the item/tutor cost) for completing the tower, I think getting ~5k BP for completing all the 8 stages would be better

 

Advantages: Trainer tower less boring

Make player improve their strategies for each tier

 

Cons: Give a lot of work to devs (making teambuilds for each tier, keep it update with every ban/unban etc)

Lower the BP current worth

 

Discuss

 

 

[Pedrr]

good idea, it can be a good training spot for PvP for lowers tiers.

[Vaeldras]

I gave up.

I don't think someone able to create an enormous pile of fecal matter such as our current bt would be ever willing to make it even remotely good.

Noone likes it, only a bunch of god chosen individuals are still providing us with choice bands (Le archinix) and the amount of grinding is beyond unbearable.

Let's repeat together: Morning sun isn't worth 1 milion x10

 

Seriously, i don't mind the tower itself (besides it not having a lvl 50 scaling system), just the payouts.

And since getting a lvl 100 team just for a few more choice bands doesn't really sound that appealing to me, i'll have someone else do the job for me.

Takes less time to just get EVEN 600k than a choice band, so why bother?

[GBush]

It only takes about 7 - 9 hours while watching tv at the same time for me to grind off that 25k.
But I also have a few things that I'd like to point out to be included into the tower.

1. Give opponents pokemon hidden power moves, I can always switch into Raichu with a ground type because I know that hp ice isnt on it.

2. Include trainer tower moves on the enemy's pokemon, seeing a Chansey use wish or leech seed vileplume should be more common.

3. Themes of gym leaders or trainers from other games. I think fighting Red from the end of gold and silver where his team is Pikachu, Snorlax, Kanto starters, etc. But even adding some more variety for trainers would be nice.

[Vaeldras]

It only takes about 7 - 9 hours while watching tv at the same time for me to grind off that 25k.
But I also have a few things that I'd like to point out to be included into the tower.

1. Give opponents pokemon hidden power moves, I can always switch into Raichu with a ground type because I know that hp ice isnt on it.

2. Include trainer tower moves on the enemy's pokemon, seeing a Chansey use wish or leech seed vileplume should be more common.

3. Themes of gym leaders or trainers from other games. I think fighting Red from the end of gold and silver where his team is Pikachu, Snorlax, Kanto starters, etc. But even adding some more variety for trainers would be nice.

 

You can make (i calc'd it a few months ago) 180k x hour with npc runs, at least that's what i managed to get with just persian and starmie.

Too bad you can't do that for more than like 40 minutes straight before running out of trainers, kek.

 

Edit: But that's really not something that has anything to do with devs, since they don't come up with prices, so let's not complain about that.

 

On topic: You know guys, everything gets boring when you have to do that countless times for just a small gain.

Perhaps it could be entertaining if we didn't have to waste our entire lives on it.

And since you (staffs) want to keep it "child and teen friendly" you might want to rebalance that, because if i was a kid, i'd sure as hell prefer something a little bit less grindy.

I mean, we have come to the point where after grinding like a mofo you don't feel like you have succeded in something or proud of yourself.

You just feel old  :rolleyes:

Edited April 29, 2015 by Vaeldras

[PandaJJ]

It only takes about 7 - 9 hours while watching tv at the same time for me to grind off that 25k.

 

Reading this is sickening. I can't see how anybody would think this is not a problem.

[Vaeldras]

Reading this is sickening. I can't see how anybody would think this is not a problem.

 

Dude, it's freaking morning sun, what did you expect?!

[Mike]

It only takes about 7 - 9 hours while watching tv at the same time for me to grind off that 25k.

Um well "only 7-9 hours" is quite alot for just 1 move don't you think. Also not everyone has that much time on their hands to play alot.

[Shaniqualela]

I have 9 level 50 EV'd comps in my box that need at least 20k+ BP moves. If you think 180,000 BP in the current system is a reasonably obtainable goal please turn off your computer.
I mean 20k BP is even a prize choice for a lot of tourneys now over freaking comp Shinies.

one move/item > a comp shiny KEK

[Vaeldras]

I wanted to teach surf to my pika, but then i realized the move was worth more than the poke itself  :(

Edited April 29, 2015 by Vaeldras

[PandaJJ]

Dude, it's freaking morning sun, what did you expect?!

I have 9 level 50 EV'd comps in my box that need at least 20k+ BP moves. If you think 180,000 BP in the current system is a reasonably obtainable goal please turn off your computer.
I mean 20k BP is even a prize choice for a lot of tourneys now over freaking comp Shinies.

one move/item > a comp shiny KEK

 

This. I expect things that have actual value to be more valuable than a single freaking move.

[GBush]

I should have put "only" haha.
It was supposed to be sarcastic but that doesn't carry over well in forums.

[ThinkNice]

It's not helping that the RNG in the tower is even worse than in the cartridges. Every flamethrower will burn, you will get para'd on every slam and the Pokémon in TT all use moves like this too so the TT is literally designed to hax the shit out of you. So you failed to make a challenging AI and think that by adding a shit load of hax it will make the tower more difficult?

 

Good job it certainly does, in the shittiest way imaginable, should've asked Vorred to come up with a name for it. The fact that they said last year that they would increase the payouts or do SOMETHING about TT and still nothing is done is ridiculous.

[OldKeith]

The gaps that these super-expensive event moves create in competitive play are really serious. That's the main concern. 

[Darkshade]

It's not helping that the RNG in the tower is even worse than in the cartridges. Every flamethrower will burn, you will get para'd on every slam and the Pokémon in TT all use moves like this too so the TT is literally designed to hax the shit out of you. So you failed to make a challenging AI and think that by adding a shit load of hax it will make the tower more difficult?

 

That's simply not true, the RNG is exactly the same, inspired by both that source and e-reader cards.

 

To address the thread at hand; I will be making alterations to the Trainer Tower to match the newly implemented Physical/Special split - other changes may occur also.

[Vaeldras]

That's simply not true, the RNG is exactly the same.

 

To address the thread at hand; I will be making alterations to the Trainer Tower to match the newly implemented Physical/Special split - other changes may occur also.

 

Keep in mind that the main complain is about the payouts though.

It almost feels as if you're avoiding talking about that on purpose.

If you think the current payouts are fine as they are why not just say it clearly? 

You guys said they were supposed to be doubled, and that was a long time ago.

Anyway, why can't we have level scaling like in tournament mode? as it is, a lot of people won't even bother building a decent team, me in the first place.

[Darkshade]

Keep in mind that the main complain is about the payouts though.

 

We're aware, and that is something we hope to address - not just through the Trainer Tower.

 

 

It almost feels as if you're avoiding talking about that on purpose.

If you think the current payouts are fine as they are why not just say it clearly?

 

I have no numbers to give at this time so I do not wish to elaborate, but we did initially plan to double the payouts with the progression of the AI.

 

 

You guys said they were supposed to be doubled, and that was a long time ago.

 

See above.

 

 

Anyway, why can't we have level scaling like in tournament mode? as it is, a lot of people won't even bother building a decent team, me in the first place.

 

Coding reasons; a new and fully healed 'clone' version of your current team is generated with each instance of tournament mode, this team does not persist outside of the battle - which means that every party member would be fully healed at the start of each new battle.

It would be difficult to create a version where it did not do that.

[Shaniqualela]

That's simply not true, the RNG is exactly the same, inspired by both that source and e-reader cards.

 

To address the thread at hand; I will be making alterations to the Trainer Tower to match the newly implemented Physical/Special split - other changes may occur also.

 

Stick farchet'd 

serence grace stuff

body slam on stuff just for the sake of 30% para's (looking at chansey)

lucky punch on chansey (its literally in the name of the item)

all just for the sole reason of haxing the fuck out of you

[Vaeldras]

We're aware, and that is something we hope to address - not just through the Trainer Tower.

 

Oh, what a tease  :rolleyes:

I'll just wait for it to be fixed then, thanks.

[Arimanius]

Maybe this is a little bit off topic but man u have no idea how much I love when devs answer to our questions :P

[ThinkNice]

That's simply not true, the RNG is exactly the same, inspired by both that source and e-reader cards.

 

To address the thread at hand; I will be making alterations to the Trainer Tower to match the newly implemented Physical/Special split - other changes may occur also.

My apologies, I was more offensive than I should.

 

I think my other point still stands though. The TT is build around haxing and the AI clearly has improved RNG. I recognize that the AI is not good enough to notice boosting moves and what to do against them. So the only way the AI deals with it is with causing burns and para and using Brightpowder. Hax doesn't make the TT harder though, it just forces us to use more passive teams with Heal Bell and Wish users. It also drags on matches for longer because of misses and needing to switch to Heal Bell etc.

 

The TT simply takes too long and is way too tedious. Moreover, event moves are extremely important in adding variety to our metagame. A lot of the best moves also cost 20k+, which is easily around 6 hours of non stop TT. Couple this with breednig and catching and we have a massive grind for one Pokémon.

 

You, are way to bound on fixing the AI before improving BP payouts, I don't think you realize how much of an impact that has had on the development of the metagame, not only of OU but also of UU (think Lovely Kiss, Morning Sun, Wish, Low Kick, Heal Bell etc)  and even stronger for Doubles (think Follow Me, Fake Out, Block, Extremespeed, Hekping Hand etc). I just wished you had considered that more before stubbornly trying to fix the AI for over half a year while the whole competitive scene suffers because of that.

[DoubleJ]

I think increasing the reward is really the biggest thing here. Those 25k and 30k moves are pretty daunting and will require at the minimum 10 runs without using the healers, meaning you are spending more than 5k yen on items such as revive, potions, and leppa berries. 

 

At my best I was creaming through the tower for 2,750 points at about 30 minutes, with a few distractions, and using approximately eight revives, twelve hyper potions, and like six or so leppa berries. 

[GBush]

I think increasing the reward is really the biggest thing here. Those 25k and 30k moves are pretty daunting and will require at the minimum 10 runs without using the healers, meaning you are spending more than 5k yen on items such as revive, potions, and leppa berries. 
 
At my best I was creaming through the tower for 2,750 points at about 30 minutes, with a few distractions, and using approximately eight revives, twelve hyper potions, and like six or so leppa berries.

Were you using level 100s? I usually use fresh waters and lemonades and moo milks since they are cheaper for 50s.

[TheRealPhatiman]

theres just too much grind and this adds to it,I see absolutely no point in spending the time or money(1 mil range for 25k and countless hours if youre poor)on one move for one poke,the competitive scene is this games end game but from an outsiders perspective you'd swear making comps were discouraged..a change was needed from the previous system,I agree.but,did we have to go a full 180 in the other direction?

+1

[Spaintakula]

The tower exist since the august 2014 update, and I've heard lot of people complaining in game and on the forum about its too based on luck, not rewarding enough, and very boring to farm.

 

How it his right now: Entrence fee is 5k, you can get a maximum of 2750 battle point for defeating the NPCs of the all 8 stages, adding the cost of the items you use between each battle (revive, potions, berries etc)

 

I think a good way to improve the tower would be:

 

-Add tiering when starting the battle tower (Ubers OU UU etc) in order to make casual gamers more interested about competitive play and make competitive player want to do the tower, difficulty would raise proportionally for each stages, with teambuild based on the viability tier concerned threads (using C/D rank for the firsts stages, S/A rank for the finals ones).

Ehhh, really? Too much work, we all know the answer to that. Other updates would go first, and this would be prolonged for another year or so, even if mods do want to go with it.

 

-Enforce pvp clauses, because its very annoying to see NPC using hax item and some pokemons spamming reflect.

It's AI, getting around it isn't even relatively hard, they're literally set-up bait, so a bit of hax makes it harder, seeing as you have the big ass advantage of using your brain, kinda makes it even, even if you get buttfucked on floor 8 by a, idk, feraligatr @_@.

 

-Increase the reward (or decrease the item/tutor cost) for completing the tower, I think getting ~5k BP for completing all the 8 stages would be better

Hah. No. Just, no. Grind4lyfe.

Wow...I must really like grinding...

 

Advantages: Trainer tower less boring (No, it'd actually make it a lot more boring. Easier, less grinding, so it'd get repetitive a lot faster, therefore making it more boring in a lesser time.)

Make player improve their strategies for each tier (No, again, it's AI, so even if by some miracle, in a few years, devs do implement tiers for TT, those sets would get shit on by a real life player who has a legit brain. It'd just make you be strong against AI, doubt any good player would use the same sets that would be implemented as TT sets, and we all know people change teams anyway like, every week or something, idek.)

 

Cons: Give a lot of work to devs (making teambuilds for each tier, keep it update with every ban/unban etc) 

Lower the BP current worth

 

Discuss

I know people want this to work, and be revamped, but this suggestion is totally not the best, if I may say so. You literally just looked for yourself as an individual, rather than how it would work on the gameplay itself.

Did I rant? Hate me.

[MisterHide]

You literally just looked for yourself as an individual, rather than how it would work on the gameplay itself.
Did I rant? Hate me.

Nope, I just want a TT which would be actually enjoyable by pretty everone.
I know adding tiering wouldn´t change much about already good players, but it would help people who don't know yet all the concerned tier possibilities, plus promotes competitive play to casuals players.

As I've said in my first post, adding tiering mean a lot of work, and even if I would like to see this happen, I know it will unlikely became real, but it can give players/devs others ideas.