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DoubleJ

Double Battles Viability Thread

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>tier with absolutely no bans
>only tier without a Pokemon over 50% usage

 

Best meta confirmed

 

 

That Gengar usage in Ou tho

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just curious would Sceptile be useful at all?....seeing as it can have pretty good coverage with its fast speed. yea it may be fragile but im sure it can cause some damage before being killed. 

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Doubles usage from Saturday's Team Tournament can be found here.

 

30% slowbro usage - is this a response to my earlier comment? :P

 

just curious would Sceptile be useful at all?....seeing as it can have pretty good coverage with its fast speed. yea it may be fragile but im sure it can cause some damage before being killed. 

 

Short answer: Probably not.

 

Long answer: Sceptile has pretty much no supportive moves or any bulk to speak of. Leech seed, for instance, is utilized much better by the two most viable grass types, ludicolo adn venusaur. They do not only have superior defensive typings, but also has the bulk required to take advantage of leech seed. This leaves being an attacker the only option for sceptile. Not only is being a grass attacker a niche on its own, due to the bad coverage of grass, but sceptile also has medicore offensive stats and a bad movepool. Due to the availability of powerhouses like metagross, salamence and gengar; sceptile needs to rely on its speed to be any useful. A fast hidden power ice is very useful, and sceptile is able to OHKO non-bulky salamence most of the time. It is however unable to OHKO bulky starmie with leaf blade, which is a shame. Jolteon deals with both of these threats in a better way. We could go on, but whatever we look at we will see that sceptile will miss out on OHKOs on almost everything, especially when running a mixed set. The only purpose I can see of using sceptile would be to assist it's partner getting certain KOs, although this is usually better done by helping hand support or a similar bulky attacker (ludicolo.) With lack of firepower and terrible bulk (showcased by being OHKOed by meteor mash from metagross 50% of the time,) it seems that sceptile has no real purpose.

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Update: Usage statistics have been updated to include the June Team Tournament and the PokeMMO Official Doubles Tournament on June 20th, 2015. The mid-season PSL statistics have been removed. PSL statistics will be added in their entirety after the completion of the PSL Championship Tie-Breaker. We hope to receive and add usage from the PokeMMO Official Doubles Tournament on July 11th, 2015 if available.

 

Notable Changes:

 

1. Gyarados usage dropped significantly, while Salamence usage saw an interesting jump.

2. Kingdra usage remains low despite consensus that it is deserving of an A+ rank.

3. Hitmontop, Jolteon, and Starmie usage has seen a steady incline.

4. New Additions include: Alakazam, Cloyster, Noctowl, Raichu, Sableye, Vileplume, Machamp, Mr. Mime, Ninetales, Ninjask, Umbreon, and Whiscash. They were added simply because they have usage in doubles. All have been added to the D rank until discussion deems otherwise.  

 

There has also been 64 different pokemon used in this tier with 25% (16) having over 10% usage. There is also currently only 1 pokemon with >50% usage, and that's Metagross with 68.5%. 

Edited by DoubleJ

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umbreon/mime can make sense under certain conditions. the rest D or lower.

 

mime can screen, cm, barrier, psych up, role play, skill swap, baton pass, and has a pretty decent offensive move pool/spdef/spat/speed. it can support in many ways that can very easily catch you off guard, while also able to kill off quite a few things with the right move.

 

umbreon can wall most threats, and can curse up, wish pass, pursuit, heal bell, charm, growl(hits both opponents), mean look, taunt, and toxic.

 

mime i think deserves D or maybe C class. umbreon deserves C-B imo. i think im too tired to think straight at this point.

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Gyarados usage dropped significantly, while Salamence usage saw an interesting jump.

This seems very natural to me. Salamence is simply the better pokemon, with higher attack, speed and better STAB. Dragon claw hits about everything in the meta except metagross, unlike waterfall which is resisted by things like starmie, vaporeon, gyarados, slowbro, ludicolo, venusaur, kingdra, blastoise, and the list goes on. Salamence has all the good coverage moves that gyarados has (crunch, RS, EQ etc.) At first it might seem like gyarados is easier to support, with things like lightningrod, but salamence is just as easily supported with screens and can get help to redirect ice beams from the likes of blastoise. As a DD pokemon, salamence is just better. Additionally, salamence can run choice band, which it does far better than gyarados. The one thing gyarados can do that salamence can't is being a bulky twave supporter, but that is not very common as far as I'm aware.

 

umbreon can wall most threats, and can curse up, wish pass, pursuit, heal bell, charm, growl(hits both opponents), mean look, taunt, and toxic.

 

umbreon deserves C-B imo. i think im too tired to think straight at this point.

I agree with this. In addition to these moves, umbreon's perhaps most important support move is helping hand, and it also gets access to tickle and fake tears. Furthermore is has moonlight for survivability. Played correctly, umbreon can be a strong tank and supporter. I would say it's at least C for now.

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Update: Usage has been added from the PokeMMO Super League and also the PokeMMO Doubles Tournament held on July 11, 2015. 

 

1. New additions to D Rank: Donphan, Politoed, and Relicanth (due to usage)

2. Umbreon has been moved to C Rank due to versatility and support ability 

 

 

Discussion Topics:

 

1. Move Kingdra to B+. In my opinion it has many weapons, but unfortunately it just doesn't have the hitting power in Doubles to be A+ or even A. I'm speaking mostly on the Dragon Dance set. As for the Rain Dance set, Kingdra will either have to rely on Surf or Hydro Pump as a primary STAB. Both of which are powerful options in the Rain, but unfortunately Surf strikes your teammate and Hydro Pump's accuracy is unreliable. I believe these to be the primary reasons why Kingdra is seeing little usage in doubles and this is why I suggest we move it down to B+.

 

2. Move Gyarados to A+. After some thought I really don't believe Gyarados is an S Rank. Sure it has sweeping potential, an amazing ability, and great typing, but does it really define Doubles? I personally don't think so.

 

3. Move Aerodactyl to S. Aero on the other hand is one of those few pokemon you instantly think of when doubles crosses your mind. With STAB Rock Slide and a wonderful move-pool to go along with it, Aerodactyl can absolutely tear through a team. A lucky flinch and it's gg. Add on its incredible speed, great typing, and decent bulk and you have a true S Rank imo. 

 

4. Move Hitmontop to B+. I just feel that Hitmontop better fits the definition of a B+ Rank. It's wimpy attack power and crap speed are notable flaws, but its ability, bulk, and typing outweigh these. 

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1. Move Kingdra to B+. In my opinion it has many weapons, but unfortunately it just doesn't have the hitting power in Doubles to be A+ or even A. I'm speaking mostly on the Dragon Dance set. As for the Rain Dance set, Kingdra will either have to rely on Surf or Hydro Pump as a primary STAB. Both of which are powerful options in the Rain, but unfortunately Surf strikes your teammate and Hydro Pump's accuracy is unreliable. I believe these to be the primary reasons why Kingdra is seeing little usage in doubles and this is why I suggest we move it down to B+.

I think Kingdra should be A. Although the DD variants are pretty bad thanks to outrage and being outclassed by the likes of gyarados and salamence, the rain variant is very strong. The low usage is probably caused by the low number of rain teams, since that is pertty much the only place where kingdra belongs. It outspeeds and kills things that would easily threaten it (salamence, dragonite, flygon) with ice beam in rain and is hard to stop with the correct team mate. As for dilemma hydro pump or surf, do note that kingdra also can get muddy water. And on rain teams, surf is not always a bad options since you will usually run things like ludicolo or even vaporeon to surf next to.

 

2. Move Gyarados to A+. After some thought I really don't believe Gyarados is an S Rank. Sure it has sweeping potential, an amazing ability, and great typing, but does it really define Doubles? I personally don't think so.

 

3. Move Aerodactyl to S. Aero on the other hand is one of those few pokemon you instantly think of when doubles crosses your mind. With STAB Rock Slide and a wonderful move-pool to go along with it, Aerodactyl can absolutely tear through a team. A lucky flinch and it's gg. Add on its incredible speed, great typing, and decent bulk and you have a true S Rank imo.

I agree with these two.

 

4. Move Hitmontop to B+. I just feel that Hitmontop better fits the definition of a B+ Rank. It's wimpy attack power and crap speed are notable flaws, but its ability, bulk, and typing outweigh these. 

I think hitmontop should stay in A. It is a strong supporter, so the "whimpy attack power" is not as important. Intimidate, fake out, helping hand and rock resist is a pretty impressive and relevant arsenal of support. It has just enough attack power to help it's team mates get easy knock-outs, and can easily switch in many times to spam it's intimidates and fake outs.

 

 

May I suggest a couple myself?

 

Kangaskhan to A rank: Kangaskhan can fake out and deal damage. After an intimidate, that pretty much reduces to fake out. Kangaskhan is a bit shy of power, which is an issue when one of it's main purposes is to deal damage. It's a good pokemon with great coverage, but it's certainly not an A+ anymore.

 

Heracross to B rank: I don't see heracross as being "fantastic" in the doubles metagame. Lackluster speed, inaccurate STAB and absolutely no supportive moves to talk of, heracross finds itself outclassed by a range of other physical attackers. It is great, not fantastic.

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No wonder this thread is dead when Fred is discussing doubles in the NU thread :P

 

i think i had trouble with a metagross once? like ever.

phys movepool is m mash/boom/t punch/i punch(why does no one use?)/eq/rs(why does no one use)

m mash is nice stab but basically shit offensively. too many things resist that are popular no enough common things weak too.

boom is a gamble cause rock/steel/protect/ghost/sub + meta needs agility to be sure to get it off before anyone faster subs.

t punch meet lightning rod and volt absorb and ground types, plus only really good vs waters not named swampert, since neutral m mash>t punch 2x (what is att boost)

i punch no one uses but is good vs dragons and not much else. anything 2x weak to ice that takes neutral to steel is better to use steel on since stab m mash and att boost

EQ is great but levitate/fly is very popular in doubles and you can not always switch to a levitate/fly poke of your own safely as EQ is mostly useful vs elektriks with generally hit the levitate/fly pokes like gyara, sala, dnite, gengar, ect... pretty hard; and other metas. also doubles att drop.

rockslide literally never seen a rs meta, but would be kewl. also non stab so the 56.25 power attack is not so good to begin with unless you are agility boosted and h hand or att boost from m mash.

 

TL;DR predictable with 2 good offensive moves(one which kills meta and is risky). and a ton of moves that can be useful in limited situations only. the immunity to intimidate is nice, but meta will only ever be a bulky wall breaker that is easy to play around.

I can't believe I'm reading this. Metagross is the single best pokemon in doubles, totally undisputed, almost worthy of it's own rank beyond S. You point out a couple of weaknesses, but every pokemon has weaknesses. It's like saying that rayquaza is not really good, because it's slower than a few pokemon like jolteon, and can get OHKO'd by STAB ice beam from certain pokemon. So let's begin:

-Metagross is the only viable pokemon with dragon resistance that can do anything against dragons. Dragon STAB is so freaking powerful, you could easily get swept by a dnite and mence next to each other spamming dragon claw if you don't have any resistance (ofc barring revenge kills from faster pokemon with ice moves.) It one-shots any dragon with ice punch, which I agree is almost a mandatory move on metagross, since it is the only viable dragon counter in the game. It also has rock and normal resistance, stopping two of the most powerful moves in doubles (rock slide and explosion)

-Speaking of typing, metagross only has two weaknesses, fire and ground. Fire is a shit offensive type because more than half of the meta resists it - dragons, waters and a couple of rock types, and then there's rain that stops it completely. There is also only one viable fire type (arcanine), so any defensive pokemon can take just about any fire move, because it's never STAB-boosted. The only ground type move you'll ever see is earthquake, which happens to have 75 base power because of spread damage, and metagross has a disgustingly high defense stat at 130. Metagross is not only a pain to take down, it's a pain to take down even when you double into it, and it becomes stupidly hard when metagross has intimidate support.

-Metagross is the only viable physical attacker with clear body. If it were not for metagross, all your physical attackers would be intimidated to hell and you would get toxic stalled stalled by blissey or some shit. Metagross is the single most hard-hitting pokemon in the game after an intimidate, even non-banded metagross hits as hard as the hardest hitting intimidated banders (dnite etc.)

-Now for it's movepool. You mention metagross has six viable offensive moves - that's quite a lot, so much in fact that metagross often does not run protect in order to fit them all in there. And it can do this because of it's great bulk and brilliant typing. I don't feel like going through every move like you did, but as I mentioned, I have no idea either why people do not run ice punch. It's easily the second best move after explosion. Yeah, explosion. The best move in the game. Ghosts/rock types are used more than they should because explosion is such a good move. Metagross can nab one or two extra kills with explosion after it has already punched holes in you several times with other moves. And people will be so afraid of the explosion that they make overpredictions for you to exploit. Rock slide is kinda medicore on non-agility variants, but still one of the best moves in doubles.

 

To your last remark: How can a pokemon with explosion ever be predictable? Metagross can be hard to play around, you never know what moves it will run. I have never played a doubles match without a metagross on my team. It literally fits any team because of it's unique traits. Metagross for S rank ;)

Edited by PandaJJ

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Usage from Friday's Doubles tournament here

Thanks a lot! Will there be usage from the team tournament as well?

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There we people using Arcanines? O_o
Intimidate with
-HP Ice
-Heatwave
-Morning Sun
-Extreme speed
-Protect
?
Just really doesn't sound good still

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There we people using Arcanines? O_o
Intimidate with
-HP Ice
-Heatwave
-Morning Sun
-Extreme speed
-Protect
?
Just really doesn't sound good still


OldKeith was pretty adamant on Arcanine being viable. Intimidate is always resourceful but imo it just had too many weaknesses in doubles.

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There we people using Arcanines? O_o
Intimidate with
-HP Ice
-Heatwave
-Morning Sun
-Extreme speed
-Protect
?
Just really doesn't sound good still

I almost considered it for one of my teams, because I needed something against gengar (crunch, WoW-immunity) and it was a better intimidate alternative than hitmontop. However I ended up dropping at after all. Fire is just a terrible type in doubles in every way, the only thing it does is hitting metagross for super effective damage. I'm not disregarding the possibility of it being a nice niche pokemon on certain teams, but it's generally not a good option. Probably C or C+ rather than B-rank.

Edited by PandaJJ

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