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DoubleJ

Double Battles Viability Thread

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Nobody is Noad ;-; y r u yelling mom

On another note, I disagree with Gyarados being at the S rank. First of all, in order to maximize its potential it need lightning rod support. Secondly, despite intimidate it still takes a beating from all hits. Waterfall is a weak stab, even at +1 (flinch too but shut up.) Eq would be good, but it gets bumped down due to doubles spread damage reduction thing. I realize some people like protect somewhere in there, but crunch is also an option which is pretty weak. Most pokemon which waterfall can't hit, crunch doesnt do a whole lot. I see the flying typing, the intimidating, the fair bulk, the decent movepool, the setting up potential, but I think it needs support of some kind to perform the best, whether it be lighting rods, fake outs, follow mes or screens. I see it as an A+, worst case A.

 

I see where you're coming from with the idea that Gyarados needs a little help to be effective with Lightning Rod partners, although my argument would be that they simply help to push Gyara over the edge of A+ and into S itself. 

 

First let's start with Gyarados without Lightning Rod support. Ok, anything faster and anything that can't be immediately killed on the field can destroy and/or straight up kill Gyarados with an Electric-Type attack. This is well known. So what does Gyarados bring without Lightning Rod support? Well first and foremost it brings the best ability in doubles to the playing field: Intimidate. This means that no physical attack (outside of Thunderpunch) can OHKO it considering its exceptional bulk as well. Second, Gyarados also resists or is immune to some of the more common attacks in doubles including Earthquake, Waterfall/Surf, Meteor Mash (Metagross #1 Usage), all fighting attacks, and also those somewhat rare Flamethrower/Fire Blasts. Those are some pretty good resistances if you ask me. Pair that with Gyarados 125 base attack stat and its Flinch-ability in its primary STAB Waterfall. Pair that with any number of attacks which include Return (Unresisted coverage), Earthquake, Crunch, Bounce, etc. 

 

With that kind of power Gyarados proves to be an incredible threat on the field, and in my experience is one of the most dangerous pokemon in doubles. More so than Salamence, more so than Gengar, and more so than Metagross. When I see Gyarados get a +1, I know I have to bring it down somehow. 

 

Just for reference, +1 Gyarados can kill Starmie, Gengar, Aerodactyl, Jolteon (37.5% OHKO w/ EQ), and multiple others that threaten it. 

 

Now just consider that power with the addition of a Lightning Rod partner. Ya, now it can't be OHKO'd by anything because you can't touch it with electric-type attacks. It is guaranteed to go +1, maybe even +2, and threaten what is really difficult to do in doubles: sweep as a single threat. 

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is this list done purely by usage in the 2 tourneys you have usage stats or by actual viability? Because what if a poke was used alot but really wasn't use full. I dont have examples in just curious

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is this list done purely by usage in the 2 tourneys you have usage stats or by actual viability? Because what if a poke was used alot but really wasn't use full. I dont have examples in just curious

pure power not usage.

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This list includes pokemon that have been used in those two tourneys but is designed on theoretical and practical power of each poke.

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This list includes pokemon that have been used in those two tourneys but is designed on theoretical and practical power of each poke.

I would suggest adding slaking to the list mostlikely C or less

 

Slaking has a whooping 160 base atk power.  However, it does not deserve a higher rank then C because even if it can hit hard it needs alot of support to be usefull. Examples of support needed is a Skill swap Partner (which i have seen Girafarig do in TT). maybe a follow me user to take the hits while traunted (if not skill swapped). Intimidate can hurt the user alot and even burn. 

 

if you guys are adding pokes that are theoretically usefull, then Slaking should be on the list with its theoretical power with support. if pokes you are addinp Pokes by Usage(which you said more power then usage) then slaking should still be on the list because was used atleast 4 times in TT.

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I would suggest adding slaking to the list mostlikely C or less

 

Slaking has a whooping 160 base atk power.  However, it does not deserve a higher rank then C because even if it can hit hard it needs alot of support to be usefull. Examples of support needed is a Skill swap Partner (which i have seen Girafarig do in TT). maybe a follow me user to take the hits while traunted (if not skill swapped). Intimidate can hurt the user alot and even burn. 

 

if you guys are adding pokes that are theoretically usefull, then Slaking should be on the list with its theoretical power with support. if pokes you are addinp Pokes by Usage(which you said more power then usage) then slaking should still be on the list because was used atleast 4 times in TT.

I've seen Daroum effectively run Slaking, but it needs support however through follow mes, fake outs, and of course skill swap. Probably fits at a C because aside from that it is painful to have traunt in doubles.

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Slaking would be appropriate at C imo. I'm pretty sure I saw it used in the TT so I'll get to adding it later.

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Slaking would be appropriate at C imo. I'm pretty sure I saw it used in the TT so I'll get to adding it later.

In a tier where Protect is perhaps a common sight on teams, I'm pretty sure it's hard for Slaking to do a lot of work, and having a one turn disable without something say Eject Button it can also significantly hinder team momentum. RIP Choice Band Hyper Beam as well. 

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Out of curiousity and the thread being a spot for general discussion, what does Vaporeon even do?

My experiences included blowing up in its face so I really havent seen its final form, ya dig? Alright what I see is dragon coutering through ice beams and icy wind support. I see muddy water stab. I see access to helping hand as well as tail whip, fake tears, charm and growl. I also see haze, cleric and wish support.

So with all that in mind I basically come to the conclusion that Vaporeon, with its ability and movepool, is a big fat support wall . Is there anything fancy to it or is it as simple as wish/protect/hp elec/ice move/muddy water? In doubles I feel like it has little offesive pressure with these spread moves, but a place in stopping dragons and dragon dancers like gyarados. What am I missing?

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Out of curiousity and the thread being a spot for general discussion, what does Vaporeon even do?

My experiences included blowing up in its face so I really havent seen its final form, ya dig? Alright what I see is dragon coutering through ice beams and icy wind support. I see muddy water stab. I see access to helping hand as well as tail whip, fake tears, charm and growl. I also see haze, cleric and wish support.

So with all that in mind I basically come to the conclusion that Vaporeon, with its ability and movepool, is a big fat support wall . Is there anything fancy to it or is it as simple as wish/protect/hp elec/ice move/muddy water? In doubles I feel like it has little offesive pressure with these spread moves, but a place in stopping dragons and dragon dancers like gyarados. What am I missing?

 

Still have to remember that HP Electric and Ice Beam remove two of the biggest threats in the game, Gyarados and Salamence. So the offensive pressure is pretty strong. It also happens to have incredible synergy with Rain Teams that utilize Surf.

 

Vaporeon uses Helping Hand. Teammate Used Surf. Teammate hits harder and heals Vap in the process. Pretty wicked. 

 

But ya, it's basically just a big fat support wall. 

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Update: Added the new usage statistics provided by the PSL at midseason. An update to the usage numbers will be provided again at the conclusion of the PSL and this will include any Official Tournaments that doubles usage was taken from during that span of time as well. 

 

New Pokemon Added: 

 

Porygon2 (0.9%) - C

- P2 used to be on this list and was ranked at the B level I believe, after a bit of conversation. Using the ability Trace, it can copy Intimidate and drop a minus one on the field. It also has decent natural bulk and an incredible special attack stat that can scare most of the UU field with the ever powerful BoltBeam combo. Instant recovery makes it a bit of a menace as well. Trace though is honestly what pops it into the C spot for me though. More usage could prove that it is a bit more viable than I believe. 

 

Magneton (0.9%) - D

- Magneton to me doesn't really do anything other than bring a powerful STAB Thunderbolt and the potential to trap Metagross on the field, thus the idea of being mediocre but viable on select teams (D). 

 

Politoed (0.9%) - D

- Water absorb makes it somewhat viable, but with Vaporeon, Lapras, and Quagsire available, what is the allure of using the Toed? 

 

 

New Topic up for debate: Kingdra. With such little usage, can it really be considered A+?

Edited by DoubleJ

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Kingdra to B rank I suppose. The lack of usage doesn't tell the whole story here but to pull it off requires a lot of circumstances. Rain is basically required to have kingdra work in doubles . You can use either special or physical with special getting the nudge for the ability to hit everything and there is a lot less setup turns also no double intimidate to ruin fun if you get set up. Surf hitting everything tho is not the best as it can hit your own pokes unless water absorb. (Yes I know about special walls but I found they don't like getting hit by multiple moves a turn). Kingdra a bulk while very good in singles leaves room in doubles considering cb espeed dragonites and the fake out users running around allowing kingdra to get worn down fast. Protect helps with this but then move slot issues happen. Just some random tired thoughts to maybe provoke a discussion

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Update: Added the new usage statistics provided by the PSL at midseason. An update to the usage numbers will be provided again at the conclusion of the PSL and this will include any Official Tournaments that doubles usage was taken from during that span of time as well. 

 

New Pokemon Added: 

 

Porygon2 (0.9%) - C

- P2 used to be on this list and was ranked at the B level I believe, after a bit of conversation. Using the ability Trace, it can copy Intimidate and drop a minus one on the field. It also has decent natural bulk and an incredible special attack stat that can scare most of the UU field with the ever powerful BoltBeam combo. Instant recovery makes it a bit of a menace as well. Trace though is honestly what pops it into the C spot for me though. More usage could prove that it is a bit more viable than I believe. 

 

Magneton (0.9%) - D

- Magneton to me doesn't really do anything other than bring a powerful STAB Thunderbolt and the potential to trap Metagross on the field, thus the idea of being mediocre but viable on select teams (D). 

 

Politoed (0.9%) - D

- Water absorb makes it somewhat viable, but with Vaporeon, Lapras, and Quagsire available, what is the allure of using the Toed? 

 

 

New Topic up for debate: Kingdra. With such little usage, can it really be considered A+?

Politoed can perish song I think, which has some niche to it, although again lapras does this as well, but without the fighting/rock weakness, maybe its a bit more appealing. I don't really think kingdra deserves that high of a rank either. It doesn't really get that many switch ins in doubles and surf is pretty weak in doubles. Also having to set your own rain is another downfall of rain teams in pokemmo doubles. Not really a great judge of what rank a pokemon should be, but A seems too high for it. 

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Thanks for the comments guys. I'll wait to update this until we get the usage stats from the upcoming Doubles Tournament (pls Noad, pls). 

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Wow, I was the only person using slowbro in the entire tournament. Either I'm stupid, or a genius.
[spoiler]inb4 people start using slowbro[/spoiler]

I ran slowbro in previous tournaments, although was a twave set to slow down other pokes. I didn't feel it served much of a purpose as defensive ludi does most stuff better and the uber dragons have a hard time doing much with jolt/aero/gengar/starmie/metagross floating around. Although cm slowbro is pretty op when you get 5 turns to set up with flinch support and get sp def drop+crits

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I'm shedding a tear right now. I'm seeing real strategy being discussed here. Doubles is growing.

Lf this to be pinned =)

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I ran slowbro in previous tournaments, although was a twave set to slow down other pokes. I didn't feel it served much of a purpose as defensive ludi does most stuff better and the uber dragons have a hard time doing much with jolt/aero/gengar/starmie/metagross floating around. Although cm slowbro is pretty op when you get 5 turns to set up with flinch support and get sp def drop+crits

 

I have yet to be convinced that a support pokemon with twave as it's only supporting move is really accomplishing anything. This is why I said blissey is really bad yesterday - all of the blissey I ran into had twave, softboiled and two special attacks. Blissey should at least run helping hand if it wants to do something, because the amount of lum berry (and lightningrod/volt absorb) around prevents twave from being really effective. Although not very good, toxic is an option that prevents things like slowbro from setting up. I agree that slowbro needs some support to be used effectively, be it flinches, screens or intimidate support. It is probably B or B+.

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i dont have too much experience but from my experience i have never seen dusclops in doubles...Whats makes it A rank?

I don't really agree its A rank either, but it's a nice mixed wall so it can somewhat handle a physical attacker+special attacker combo, something that snorlax can't really do that well (ie jolteon and heracross). Dusclops can also spread will o wisp pretty well and is immune to fake out. 

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I don't really agree its A rank either, but it's a nice mixed wall so it can somewhat handle a physical attacker+special attacker combo, something that snorlax can't really do that well (ie jolteon and heracross). Dusclops can also spread will o wisp pretty well and is immune to fake out.


Has pretty good staying power on doubles, meaning it can take a serious beating.

It has access to Ice Beam for the dragons, Tpunch for Gyarados, WoW for physical sweepers, STAB shadow ball for Gengar, and is genuinely just great support. Add on top of that it's immune to explosion to support your team even further.

I fully believe it's A rank and is one of the biggest reasons for AW's success in doubles too.

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