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Double Battles Viability Thread


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28 minutes ago, Rendiz said:

I'm going over most of the changes I feel need to be made. I have a few more changes that may be necessary based off of sets that I'm thinking of using in the seasonal finals or just general theory crafting. With that said I will probably post again with a few more changes after the seasonal is over depending on if I feel it is necessary or not.

 

Aerodactyl S > A+: I agree to drop Aero, Choice Scarf + the prevalence of Rock-type resistance has nerfed this beast a bit

 

Kingdra A+ > A: I can agree to move down Kingdra, unfortunately it does have a tougher time in the tier with Choice Scarf and the rise in usage of Blissey. 

 

Jolteon A > B+: I'm hesitant to make this change, but will consider it if others feel it's right. 

 

Snorlax A > B+: Lax has been hit hard by the Self-Destruct drop, but it's still a monster. Toss CB on it and get out of the way since STAB Double-Edge can one shot most things that don't resist it. I can't warrant a B+ rank on big bad lax. 

 

Hitmontop A > A+: I like Hitmontop at A, for the very reasons you stated. I don't see any reasons to move it up at this point. 

 

Ludicolo A > A+: Ludi still has a major weakness to the ever present Gengar, but with Protect it offers a lot of bait for that targeted Sludge Bomb and thus a free Gengar kill. I'll move it up. 

 

Dusclops A > B: Definitely moving down Clops. 

 

Starmie B+ > A: Agree


Blissey B+ > A: Agree

 

Tyranitar B+ > A/A+: Agree with A+; while it still can't outspeed Jolteon or Aerodactyl with Scarf, that Sandstorm +SpDef boost, Sandstorm itself, and the insane STABs warrant a much higher rank. 

 

 

Going to plagiarize PandaJJ here because he summed it up really nicely and nothing has changed since then in regards to this.

 

Rhydon to B, Marowak to B+: Rhydon needs to be moved down, I can't warrant raising up Marowak though. On paper it certainly is better than Rhydon, but unfortunately it just doesn't see the usage imo to get that bump. 

 

Weezing + Forretress B > C: Agree

 

Clefable C > B+: Agree

 

Blaziken C > A+/A: Agree, in part. Blaziken warrants a much higher place on the totem pole, but unfortunately I can't rank it that much higher than Charizard at the moment. It's slower, it's not resistance to EQ, and it needs support to be truly successful. The ability to remove Tyranitar and Blissey though makes for a great argument, and I will give Blaziken B+ for now. 

 

Charziard C > B: Agree

Moving Down:

Aerodactyl S --> A+ 

Kingdra A+ --> A

Dusclops A --> B

Rhydon B+ --> B

Weezing B --> C

Forretress B --> C

 

Moving Up:

Ludicolo A --> A+

Starmie B+ --> A

Blissey B+ --> A

Tyranitar B+ --> A+ 

Clefable C --> B+

Blaziken C --> B+

Charizard D --> B

 

EDIT: Also made a lil disclaimer warning peeps that the usage stats have not been updated since January 26th, 2016. 

 

 

Edited by DoubleJ
To exert my dominance of course.
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Looking at first page. I've drop jinx down to D rank. I cannot see it being even that high. No inner focus and it's just bait for fake out and it's speed tier is not what it needs to be at.

i would move Zam up. Life orb an d specs help it out a lot. Toss in inner focus to prevent the fake out users from stalling it an du could have a fun poke. (Lf focus blast tho or some special fighting move)

you could also argue machismo being moved up to C rank. Decent bulk. Good ability just slow. this one I'm not completely sold on but worth thinking about

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 4 weeks later...

Gengar S > A+ - The new items haven't really helped Gengar out. With scarf now in the game it struggles by getting outsped by a lot of threats that It otherwise would have outsped and now can be threatened out by a variety of things. Of course if you use scarf Gengar you do not have these problems but it means that you are losing so much utlity (the thing that made Gengar good in the first place) that it's only really a gimmick that counters unexpecting Gengars. Not to mention it gets fucked so hard by scarf ttar its not even funny, all of its attacks do literally nothing and cant WoW or protect scout if choiced.. Either getting outsped / not being able to protect scout depending on set just makes Gengar far weaker than it was before.

 

Blaziken B+ > A+/A: For the same reasons as before. Going to address your reasoning for not making it higher:

 

Agree, in part. Blaziken warrants a much higher place on the totem pole, but unfortunately I can't rank it that much higher than Charizard at the moment. It's slower, it's not resistance to EQ, and it needs support to be truly successful. The ability to remove Tyranitar and Blissey though makes for a great argument, and I will give Blaziken B+ for now. 

 

To start with it is far stronger than Charizard for a variety of reasons. Blazikens typing in comparison to Charizard is a blessing in disguise. Compared to Zard it actually has a far superior defensive and offensive typing. In comparison to charizard Blazikens most common 'weakness' is to EQ. But using naive nature and because of spread attacks in doubles it actually lives scarf EQs an can actually abuse them to get into % range for blaze boosts.

 

If using scarf Blaziken you can live a scarf EQ and then 1 shot things with blaze boosted scarf heatwave. If using Orb blaze you can easily live a -1 EQ and then abuse multiple turns of life orb blaze boosted attacks. With intimidates it can take non super effective attacks for days and the only reliable way of bringing it down is with a move that is easily exploitable with either blaze boosts or ground immune team mates.

 

Too lazy to provide calcs right now but can do later if needed.

 

Compare this to zard that has no reliable way of getting blaze boost and its weakness to RS is incredibly crippling since there are few good RS switch ins compared to EQ.

 

Now if you look at the offensive typing TTar / Blissey fucks zard way so hard its unreal and zard requires far more support to be effective whereas Blaziken is extremely effective without support while being an absolute god with support.

 

Its offensive movepool is absolutely insane with stab fire / fighting killing basically the entire tier outside of water types (still one of the best ludi counters in the game) and it fucks most of them with HP Grass. Paired with an offensive icy wind it beats almost everything as well as fucking follow me teams with heatwave. Its giant plethora of viable attacks / sets allows for it to be able to kill every single poke in the the tier depending on set and there aren't any safe switch ins especially with a strong offensive pairing.

 

Also the notion of something requiring support to be effective seems kind of lost. Everything in doubles requires support in the form of an offensive pairing not to mention we have had salamence at S for the longest time despite the fact that it traditionally required toise support. Blaziken depending on set requires no less support than gengar and other similar pokes and just like gengar with support it only becomes stronger.

 

tldr: Blaziken is either the strongest wallbreaker in the tier or an extremely effective scarf sweeper as well as being very counter meta (seriously look at S/A+ and how hard it beats the majority of those). It has a much stronger offensive and defensive typing than zard and threatens the entire tier by itself. You could say I'm a bit biased because Blaze is my baby but I still think this monster being only B+ is a joke.

 

 


I also stand by the other changes that I previously mentioned but don't have the time or energy to think more about this game atm. 

Edited by Rendiz
Changed wording to help differentiate between Blaziken and Blaze (ability)
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  • 4 weeks later...
33 minutes ago, Artemiseta said:

at the moment ide place it at B or B-

tosie is better. has better support moves in follow me and fake out

access to muddy water also helps it out. the bulk on milotic is not as good as toise either unless it is statused

access to recover + mirror coat, it live any tbolt jolteon / manectric 

hydro pump hits hard, access to icywind.

Milotic has a better spcial bulk than blastoise if you run many intimidates milotic can deal with any physical attackers

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So how are you going to do that when manectric told hits u for at least 70% plus taking damage from the other Pokemon as you will more than likely not out speed it? This is assuming bold max invest there and if u do calm u take way too much from dragons on this bold one dragon claw still does over 30% 

recover in doubles is incredibly hard to pull off the best example I think of in venusaur and ludicolo with leech seed and protect to stall

and then starmie who outpaces enough to remove damage, something milotic can't do.

all of this is not saying it's bad I'm saying toise outclasses it with follow me and fake out to better support the team not to just attack something. On the whole vaporeon can wish protect to heal and does live bolts with life orb from manectric. Can use helping hand to boost others as well I put it on par with vaporeon but better sp def and not as good support moves for helping team mates

 

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idk I think B or B- is just too lenient, Venu clef and blaze are used wayyy more often than Milotic will be.

It is bulky but can only cover one stat (def or spdef) and anything electric hits it pretty hard.

It is also really slow and recover is a hassle to use

It's movepool is extremly small varying from hydropump, surf, protect, ice beam, icy wind, blizzard, light screen, rain dance, mirror coat and recover

which essentially means it only can support a water based team or just sit there and deal a few hits here and there

Lastly, even though it has some spatk I think bulk is more needed on it and I don't think it's a smart idea to use any time soon

It's ability will be rarely used unless in extremely circumstances with Blis using twave or a secondary ability working on it, so I'm more content in putting it at a C rank

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I feel like the most apt comparison for Milotic would be Vap considering Toise fills a completely different role. At first I was thinking the milotic was just a bad Vap considering no helping hand or muddy water with it only really having a couple of offensive moves outside of hidden power but I think the strength of Ludicolo has shown us that a bulky mon with solid recovery is actually a lot stronger than otherwise would have originally been anticipated.

 

That being said Milotic has slightly better mixed defense capabilities than Vaporeon has as well as access to recover. The only things that can chunk Milotic really hard is stab electric which tbh is becoming fairly uncommon in doubles as well as the fact they cannot swap in safely vs Hpump /  Surf and the main counter being Ludicolo. I feel like Milotic with a Ludi counter will become really obnoxious and hard to take down. Not saying its going to be amazing or meta changing but I feel like on initial reflection it seems to have a place alongside Ludi as being the annoying stall poke of the tier.

 

Despite its rather mediocre move pool in comparison to Vap I feel like its actually a really strong contender and will see some play as a niche pick in some of the slower stally teams which don't need to utilize water absorb.

 

In retrospect I probably was a bit ambitious saying A for it since even though its good its very niche B+ is my best guess for what I have planned with it.

Edited by Rendiz
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3 hours ago, Rendiz said:

I feel like the most apt comparison for Milotic would be Vap considering Toise fills a completely different role. At first I was thinking the milotic was just a bad Vap considering no helping hand or muddy water with it only really having a couple of offensive moves outside of hidden power but I think the strength of Ludicolo has shown us that a bulky mon with solid recovery is actually a lot stronger than otherwise would have originally been anticipated.

 

That being said Milotic has slightly better mixed defense capabilities than Vaporeon has as well as access to recover. The only things that can chunk Milotic really hard is stab electric which tbh is becoming fairly uncommon in doubles as well as the fact they cannot swap in safely vs Hpump /  Surf and the main counter being Ludicolo. I feel like Milotic with a Ludi counter will become really obnoxious and hard to take down. Not saying its going to be amazing or meta changing but I feel like on initial reflection it seems to have a place alongside Ludi is being the annoying stall poke of the tier.

 

Despite its rather mediocre move pool in comparison the Vap I feel like its actually a really strong contender and will see play as a niche pick in some of the slower stally teams which don't need to utilize water absorb.

 

In retrospect I probably was a bit ambitious saying A for it since even though its good its very niche B+ is my best guess for what I have planned with it.

you dont even play plz leave

 

EDIT:

Physical Bulk Milotic

Spoiler

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 152-182 (75.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 98-116 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 48.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

0 SpA Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 54-66 (26.7 - 32.6%) -- 47.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Life Orb Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 156-186 (77.2 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Life Orb Metagross ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 104-124 (51.4 - 61.3%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 66-78 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 34-42 (16.8 - 20.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

216+ Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 90-106 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 75-88 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Special Bulk Milotic

Spoiler

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 114-134 (56.4 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 74-88 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

0 SpA Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 38-48 (18.8 - 23.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Life Orb Jolteon Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 116-138 (57.4 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252+ Atk Metagross ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 192 Def Milotic: 96-114 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 192 Def Milotic: 90-106 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 192 Def Milotic: 42-49 (20.7 - 24.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

216+ Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 192 Def Milotic: 105-124 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Milotic: 57-67 (28.2 - 33.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Milotic attacking

Spoiler

0 SpA Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 85-102 (62.9 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

0 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 176-208 (103.5 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

SpA Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jolteon: 70-84 (50 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

0 SpA Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 170-204 (109.6 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

0 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ludicolo: 36-42 (19.2 - 22.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

0 SpA Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 38-45 (28.1 - 33.3%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO

 

0 SpA Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 56 HP / 4 SpD Heracross: 70-84 (43.2 - 51.8%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO

 

0 SpA Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 75-88 (40.1 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

0 SpA Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manectric: 102-120 (70.3 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

0 SpA Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hitmontop: 63-75 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

0 SpA Milotic Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 92-110 (52.2 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Edited by JIceJDragon
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you're just calcing like if milotic was used in single ... the most important is the pair milotic can make with other pokemons

artemiseta is calcing like if milotic was 1v2.

milotic is weak to tbolt, but you have the right to play manectric

milotic is weak to ludi and venu, but you have the right to use gengar charizard and arcanine na?

 

Anyways till you havnt used milotic you can calc whatever you want it wont proove (imo) that milotic is bad or 'not that uber'

Edited by Viking
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5 hours ago, Viking said:

you're just calcing like if milotic was used in single ... the most important is the pair milotic can make with other pokemons

artemiseta is calcing like if milotic was 1v2.

milotic is weak to tbolt, but you have the right to play manectric

milotic is weak to ludi and venu, but you have the right to use gengar charizard and arcanine na?

 

Anyways till you havnt used milotic you can calc whatever you want it wont proove (imo) that milotic is bad or 'not that uber'

damn this guy's on fire

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7 hours ago, Viking said:

you're just calcing like if milotic was used in single ... the most important is the pair milotic can make with other pokemons

artemiseta is calcing like if milotic was 1v2.

milotic is weak to tbolt, but you have the right to play manectric

milotic is weak to ludi and venu, but you have the right to use gengar charizard and arcanine na?

 

Anyways till you havnt used milotic you can calc whatever you want it wont proove (imo) that milotic is bad or 'not that uber'

milotic can barely take a hit from 1 pokemon without living no matter the set, what makes you think it can take 2 hits

Besides if you say it can pair up with specific pokemon, it really can't because its movepool is such trash the only things it can pair up with is like

Ludicolo, Kingdra, or pokemon trying to set up rain or just stall out the match otherwise it's just a waste of pokemon with no offensive pressure

What is a manectric and milotic going to do to you? Manectric really isn't that hard to kill and its not like milotic is setting up anything to sweep unlike gyarados 

But I am not saying milotic is completely useless either, its just this pokemon can only have like 1 specific use, since its movepool is so small in doubles.

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  • 3 weeks later...
5 minutes ago, myhugeboijoe said:

And now, many people use milotic

Who woulda guessed?

 

On 7/30/2016 at 3:56 AM, Rendiz said:

I feel like its actually a really strong contender and will see some play as a niche pick in some of the slower stally teams which don't need to utilize water absorb.

But for real the main reason it is seeing success atm is due to stall teams and how people are really not good with dealing with them. While it looks really strong atm winning a lot of high stakes matches in tournaments its apparent power is lower than it seems because people suck at wall breaking in this tier despite having the most insane wall breaking options around with access to ubers. I'll stick with my earlier ranking of A / B+

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Yeah gonna chime in on the milotic debate

 

Its strong, like A+ strong imo. It has better bulk than just about anything, hits hard with hydro pump, great utility with icy wind/toxic/mirror coat and has superb recovery

 

It partners like a dream with all the top tier mons like meta, gengar and mence and is beyond hard to take down without super effective attacks. Even using a status on it benefits it more often than not

 

It wins just about every 1v1 too

 

 

On 8/2/2016 at 10:52 AM, JIceJDragon said:

milotic can barely take a hit from 1 pokemon without living no matter the set, what makes you think it can take 2 hits

 uwot?

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On 02/08/2016 at 10:47 AM, Viking said:

you're just calcing like if milotic was used in single ... the most important is the pair milotic can make with other pokemons

artemiseta is calcing like if milotic was 1v2.

milotic is weak to tbolt, but you have the right to play manectric

milotic is weak to ludi and venu, but you have the right to use gengar charizard and arcanine na?

 

Anyways till you havnt used milotic you can calc whatever you want it wont proove (imo) that milotic is bad or 'not that uber'

 

4 minutes ago, DoctorPBC said:

Yeah gonna chime in on the milotic debate

 

Its strong, like A+ strong imo. It has better bulk than just about anything, hits hard with hydro pump, great utility with icy wind/toxic/mirror coat and has superb recovery

 

It partners like a dream with all the top tier mons like meta, gengar and mence and is beyond hard to take down without super effective attacks. Even using a status on it benefits it more often than not

 

It wins just about every 1v1 too

called it, milotic sucks at OU for some reasons but i knew it was a doubles god i agree with Doc, A+ rank easily, A rank minimum

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  • 1 month later...
  • 1 month later...
1 hour ago, Viking said:

May i ask to move Blissey from A to A+ / S ?(i assume it's as much used as Metagross actually)

I don't think Blissey is anywhere near Metagross usage. My rough estimation would be 25-35 % usage for Blissey.

 

However, as usage isn't the sole arbitrer of ranks I'm gonna say it's A+ worthy as how good it is. Special offense has become so much more deadly with Life Orbs. What you can do now is to absolutely shut down two special attackers on the field with Blissey and guarantee at least one of your Pokemon are saved in any case possible, possibly two if other Protects. At worst the special attackers can look hopeless doing no damage on Blissey while draining their own HP with Life Orb. In addition physical attackers don't completely laugh at Blissey and even when facing one they need to really concentrate on it because of Blissey's Tbolt/Ice Beam/Flamethrower can really hurt the powerful Doubles attackers.

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