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Double Battles Viability Thread


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This is hardly true. Starme 22%? Kangaskhan 19%? Tyranitar 9%? If you go into a doubles tournament and expect to see more starmie and kanga than ttar, you will be surprised. I'm not sure exactly where ttar is at the moment, but I would be very interested in knowing. Not directing the lack of statistics at you of course, but I'm sure the current statistics are rather outdated.

 

 

Counting only my Blastoise uses it is far above 2.3% and that isn't including all the other people who use it. You can't honestly say the meta has barely changed with Blastoise / Clef usage being so far off as well as the the pokes that Panda has already stated. I could make a whole list of Pokemon which usage is far from being applicable anymore if I was that petty.

 

You guys make a valid point, I was thinking more along the lines of the higher S- and A-rank threats. 

 

will this ever be updated?

 

Depends on whether staff start taking Doubles usage again, until then I am limited in my power since I don't have the time or energy to take usage as a "non-staff" member of this game

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Moved Aerodactyl up to "S" Rank

Moved Salamence up to "S" Rank

Moved Gyarados down to "A+" Rank

Moved Kangaskhan down to "B" Rank

Moved Blastoise up to "A" Rank

Moved Tyranitar up to "B+" Rank

 

Other topics open for discussion, as well as recent changes. Please note that current usage "percentages" do not reflect the current Doubles meta as they are outdated. 

 

lf Usage 

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Thought it was almost unanimous that Gyara should stay S, What changed?

 

Also nice to see Kanga finally moved down.

 

Surprisingly I was the one pushing for Gyara to be "S" while everyone else preferred Salamence to be "S" instead. With the recent flux of officials, it appears Salamence is now the dominant flying DD/Intimidate user, where as Gyara is relegated to a "secondary" roll behind Mence with its necessity for Lightning Rod support. 

 

tl;dr I jumped the fence in a previous argument

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Imo Aerodactyl isn't S rank, yes, rock slide spam is good, but it isn't that great considering it's damage is 84~. It's fast and strong but the presence of intimidate really weakens it a lot. If you use anything other than Rock Slide you're also at a disadvantage imo, since there are so many ground-immune pokes and pokes that can take DE (I don't think people have a reason to use crunch?)

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Imo Aerodactyl isn't S rank, yes, rock slide spam is good, but it isn't that great considering it's damage is 84~. It's fast and strong but the presence of intimidate really weakens it a lot. If you use anything other than Rock Slide you're also at a disadvantage imo, since there are so many ground-immune pokes and pokes that can take DE (I don't think people have a reason to use crunch?)

I've actually thought that Aero deserved S Rank for a while but never stated it because i felt others disagreed with me. I feel like in the current meta there is a lot of follow me users and Aero can really put a dent into Sala / Gyara the foremost of which being more prevalent than ever. And with those pokes being prevalent and the fact that helping hand users also don't like taking CB helping hand rock slides I feel like it deals with a lot of the current threats pretty efficiently. I also feel as though Swampert usage has dropped a bit recently (could be wrong maybe its just variance) which is very beneficial to Aero. All of this combined with the fact that helping hand CB Aero has carried me in numerous games I feel like it deserves S rank.

 

On a side note though it seems like icy wind is becoming a more prevalent move in the meta and if this continues Aero may have to be moved back down to A+

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Imo Aerodactyl isn't S rank, yes, rock slide spam is good, but it isn't that great considering it's damage is 84~. It's fast and strong but the presence of intimidate really weakens it a lot. If you use anything other than Rock Slide you're also at a disadvantage imo, since there are so many ground-immune pokes and pokes that can take DE (I don't think people have a reason to use crunch?)


I use crunch for the suprise OHKO on gengar

I disagree on all of your points, most intimidate users are weak to rock slide so can't switch in often and ground types are fairly uncommon with the prevalence of rain teams. Basically put a well played aero wins games and isn't walled by a whole lot aside from hitmontop and metagross
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I use crunch for the suprise OHKO on gengar

I disagree on all of your points, most intimidate users are weak to rock slide so can't switch in often and ground types are fairly uncommon with the prevalence of rain teams. Basically put a well played aero wins games and isn't walled by a whole lot aside from hitmontop and metagross

I use crunch aswell but I don't get the chance to use it since RS is a lot safer to use.

 

I do see what you mean, but something just doesn't feel right about aero being S rank and i'm not sure why

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Yeah Crunch is useful in very niche situations. I disagree with PBC somewhat that it should be used to try and surprise Gengar as its very rare for Gengar to not protect scout vs Aero. And at that point being CB locked into crunch is a huge liability for your team and it should only be used end game where they have Gengar out and cannot swap. Outside of that i agree with everything else he stated.

 

@Toast - I see no reason why Aero shouldn't be considered S. I've used Aero + Hitmontop (move this bad boy up to A+ already) as the cornerstones for my doubles teams for a long time. If they dont make sure to keep meta healthy before you bring Aero out you are pretty much guaranteed to kill stuff.

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I use crunch for the suprise OHKO on gengar

Crunch should be standard on aerodactyl, but it shouldn't really be used unless you are in an endgame VS gengar, where locking into crunch doesn't immediately lose.

 

On a side note though it seems like icy wind is becoming a more prevalent move in the meta and if this continues Aero may have to be moved back down to A+

Although, icy wind actually makes sure that aerodactyl remains faster than salamence and gyarados, so it is actually able to do what it's supposed to. Aerodactyl never had any good switch-ins even before the dominance of icy wind, anyways.

 

I feel like both gyarados and aerodactyl are difficult to place, but they are certainly either S or A+.

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Although, icy wind actually makes sure that aerodactyl remains faster than salamence and gyarados, so it is actually able to do what it's supposed to. Aerodactyl never had any good switch-ins even before the dominance of icy wind, anyways.

Was talking more about Sala protect + blastoise icy wind when you are trying to threaten sala with RS rather than swapping in against it.

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  • 1 month later...
  • 2 months later...
4 minutes ago, SamuraiHunter said:

Hey have there been any changes in viability due to new items? I haven't been able to test so much so am asking

Nosepass is obviously S rank now. This has nothing to do with the new items; Nosepass is just OP.

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I'm fairly confident that doubles usage is being collected as it goes through the matchmaking and tournament system just like the other tiers. If enough people want to see the usage, Tyrone can probably make usage tables for it. (assuming that the current system does collect doubles usage, don't see any reason why it would be omitted though) 

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1 hour ago, DrCraig said:

I think Zard and Nosepass have a case for being C ranked.

Nosepass is obviously a niche for trapping, but Gb has been flexing it very well.

Zard simply deserves to be higher because fire typing is pretty offensively nasty alongside big speed.

Also zard gets access to flying moves which help beat hitmontop and grass types (aka ludi)

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3 minutes ago, JIceJDragon said:

Also zard gets access to flying moves which help beat hitmontop and grass types (aka ludi)

Special Zard is the best by far and I'd say does as much damage as flying moves will do with FireBlast/Heatwave

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10 hours ago, SamuraiHunter said:

Hey have there been any changes in viability due to new items? I haven't been able to test so much so am asking

The items haven't changed the viability very much tbh I feel like the same things are strong as before we had them. The main problem here is that the list is still kind of out of date and a lot of pokes haven't been moved around for a while so we are still kind of going off of misrepresented data.. I'll do a write up of the pokes I believe should be changed soon hopefully alongside some usage.

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I'm going over most of the changes I feel need to be made. I have a few more changes that may be necessary based off of sets that I'm thinking of using in the seasonal finals or just general theory crafting. With that said I will probably post again with a few more changes after the seasonal is over depending on if I feel it is necessary or not.

 

Aerodactyl S > A+: With the introduction of choice scarf this allows various pokemon ex metagross to be able to threaten aero out that before were no longer able to. This along with the fact that it was borderline S before imo is enough for it to be moved down.

 

Kingdra A+ > A: While it is true that life orb definitely helps RD a lot the rise of defensive ludi has really hindered many RD teams and makes them weaker. This along with the fact that Kingdra only has 1 commonly used set and requires support to be used properly makes it very easy to play around.

 

Jolteon A > B+: Hasn't been very relevant or used for a while and the addition of choice scarf does nothing other than hinder Jolteon as it is no longer able to threaten certain threats with its speed anymore.

 

Snorlax A > B+: The addition of Life Orb has made it a lot harder for Snorlax to tank hits. It is far less effective at swapping in vs RD teams now as it will get hit really hard. It can be threatened out by a lot more things and its harder to switch in.

 

Hitmontop A > A+: Probably the best support poke around with intimidate and access to both fake out and helping hand. As a fake out user it outclasses Kanga due to its ability. Hitmontop despite not having the highest base stats can still hit things pretty hard due to it having pretty solid coverage and access to helping hand allows for it to forgo attacking moves for the most part while still being threatening.

 

Ludicolo A > A+: Ludicolo has risen in popularity due to its very effective defensive set allowing for it to wall most physical attackers very effectively as well as using its typing / ability to almost completely shut down rain dance teams and resist a lot of special attacks while recovering health back from leech seed and giga drain. Ludicolo is still very strong on RD teams with both a special and physical set making it very unpredictable. Ludi is very versatile and very hard to deal with and is a cornerstone for many teams.

 

Dusclops A > B: Explosion isn't really as prevalent in doubles as it used to be making an extra ghost type less needed than before. While it is true that the new items make for less lum berrys being used I still feel like purely having the ability to spread status isn't enough to justify an A rank for clops. Dusclops niche a lot less viable than it was before.

 

Starmie B+ > A: Strong special attacker and support. It has a very strong offensive movepool and can threaten the entire metagame outside of blissey. The new items haven't helped it that substantially but its ability to screen and OHKO a lot of the metagame including gengar make it very powerful.

Blissey B+ > A: Unlike snorlax blissey has taken a far less substantial hit from life orb. It is still able to reliably swap into offensive special attackers and heal off the damage. It has an amazing movepool with both very strong supporting moves as well as a surprisingly strong special offense that can take chunks out of almost the entire metagame.

 

Tyranitar B+ > A/A+: Now that it has access to choice scarf and because sandstorm gives SpDef to rock types TTar has become a much more threatening Pokemon making it very hard to take down outside of fighting attacks. If you team it with other rock types that benefit from sandstorm like Aero or a strong psychic type to threaten hitmontop then that makes it exponentially better. TTar can also benefit from Blastoise support to either set up with DDance or hammer away with Choiced attacks. It is a great revenge killer with scarf and it amazing at countering rain teams with its ability sandstorm.

 

 

Going to plagiarize PandaJJ here because he summed it up really nicely and nothing has changed since then in regards to this.

 

Rhydon to B, Marowak to B+: While Rhydon's secondary rock typing might seem to give it some advantages over Marowak, such as STAB RS and normal-resistance, these advantages are diminished by the plethora of weaknesses that comes with it. 4x weakness to grass makes it go down to anything that is supposed to counter Swampert, a fairly common pokemon. Marowak on the other hand, survives things like giga drain from Gengar. The 4x water weakness is the same story over again, while Rhydon dies to literally any water move, Marowak survives things like muddy water from Swampert or Vaporeon. Rock also comes with a nasty weakness to meteor mash and EQ, extremely common moves. On the offensive side, Marowak simply hits harde. The usage of the two pokemon also reflects this argument.

 

Weezing + Forretress B > C: These just aren't viable and lets not pretend they are and mislead people by leaving them at B rank

 

Clefable C > B+: Clef is an excellent follow me user as well as overall very good support pokemon with amazing supporting capability's and ability to set up cosmic powers and becoming a very scary follow me user.
 

Blaziken C > A+/A: A hidden gem of the doubles metagame for a very long time. Blaze has a strong typing alongside a very strong offensive movepool making it possibly the best mixed attacker in the tier. Life orb has been a great addition to Blazikens arsenal allowing for it to OHKO blissey with no attack investment, OHKO dragons without Never-Melt Ice and allowing for it to do a Metric Fucktonne of damage with fire blast. Pair Blaziken with an offensive Icy wind user like Gengar and it is capable of killing almost the entire tier depending on moveset.

 

Charziard C > B: For the reasons people stated above + the way that the viablity threat is currently set up it seems as though any pokes that are unviable go in C and below therefor unless we are planning to overhaul the viability rankings and start again there should be no reason to leave zard in C rank when it is clearly better than that.

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