[UU Discussion] Umbreon and the Health of the UU Meta (Banned to BL)

[PandaJJ]

So actually walls+tanks make up about 70% of the metagame and sweepers make up 30%.

 

My classification of scizor as a sweeper, and the fact that the part of the list you cut off contains mainly sweepers makes all the difference. Your way of doing it might be more correct, but I don't think it's fair to remove the bottom half of the list entirely.

 

 

I didn't include pokemon below because if you look at them

 

Flareon Ninetales Sharpedo Tentacruel Absol Granbull Haunter Omastar Victreebel Zangoose Cacturne Kangaskhan Lapras Manectric Walrein Whiscash Xatu

 

(5 special sweepers, marked in red)

 

You'll see that very few of them are highly viable in the standard UU metagame.

 

I totally disagree that most of them are unviable, but you are of course entitled to have your own opinion on the matter.

[DoubleJ]

 

My classification of scizor as a sweeper, and the fact that the part of the list you cut off contains mainly sweepers makes all the difference. Your way of doing it might be more correct, but I don't think it's fair to remove the bottom half of the list entirely.

 

 

I totally disagree that most of them are unviable, but you are of course entitled to have your own opinion on the matter.

 

I agree with Panda about these listed pokes being viable. I think we are all aware how strong Xatu and Omastar are. Manectric is definitely a second-tier special sweeper without reliable set-up (Lightning Rod leggo) and Haunter is just too damn squishy. Ninetales I'm on the fence about. Great speed, but low Special Attack stat. It still has great coverage and a lot of support moves to go along with it. 

 

Nevertheless, we have some really good special attacking options, but again, I just feel that they are outclassed by physical sweepers and intimidated by a strong defensive core. 

[Kizhaz]

Umbreon is weak to only Bug and Fighting. The strongest Bug atk we have is Signal beam with 75 power with our best special attacking Bug types being Beautifly with 100 sp.atk followed by Venomoth and Butterfree with 90. Similarly our strongest Fighting type atk is HP Fighting with 70 power, and the highest sp atk stats on a fighting type being Blaziken with 110 who hopefully doesn't see UU time, Combusken with 85 and Poliwrath with 70. It should come as no surprise that this makes Umbreon a great choice as a wall. Of course you can take it down with not SE hits as well or non STAB SE hits, but if that hit is Special it wont do too much.

 

The reason Physical sweepers are preferred is because we have access to more devistating hits and can chuck a choice band on to power up weaker moves. So no matter what tier Umbreon is in it will still wall almost every special hitter, hence why I feel it is redundant to say that it is unhealthy due to walling a good portion of the game.

[DrCraig]

Umbreon is weak to only Bug and Fighting. The strongest Bug atk we have is Signal beam with 75 power with our best special attacking Bug types being Beautifly with 100 sp.atk followed by Venomoth and Butterfree with 90. Similarly our strongest Fighting type atk is HP Fighting with 70 power, and the highest sp atk stats on a fighting type being Blaziken with 110 who hopefully doesn't see UU time, Combusken with 85 and Poliwrath with 70. It should come as no surprise that this makes Umbreon a great choice as a wall. Of course you can take it down with not SE hits as well or non STAB SE hits, but if that hit is Special it wont do too much.
 
The reason Physical sweepers are preferred is because we have access to more devistating hits and can chuck a choice band on to power up weaker moves. So no matter what tier Umbreon is in it will still wall almost every special hitter, hence why I feel it is redundant to say that it is unhealthy due to walling a good portion of the game.

You're dancig a little bit. Yes of course it is take down by physicals, yes physicals have advantages over special. It's a special wall. Talk how it shuts down and punishes special offense. Umbreon differs from Blissey because it isnt CM bait, and has that STAB pursuit. Jynx is undeniabley a great special attacker, but you are stuck with having to use it late game. Otherwise you will get trapped if you can't get rid of Umby first. I'd rather not run the risk of my secial attackers being walled and trapped when I could just run physical and avoid Umbreon. It's defensively too strong in my opinion, to the point of making special offense much less viable.

I agree with Panda about these listed pokes being viable. I think we are all aware how strong Xatu and Omastar are. Manectric is definitely a second-tier special sweeper without reliable set-up (Lightning Rod leggo) and Haunter is just too damn squishy. Ninetales I'm on the fence about. Great speed, but low Special Attack stat. It still has great coverage and a lot of support moves to go along with it. 
 
Nevertheless, we have some really good special attacking options, but again, I just feel that they are outclassed by physical sweepers and intimidated by a strong defensive core.

Outclass special attackers, but are just plain safer. People run some defensive cover because of its pressure, and Umbreon alone to pick off special attackers, if any are used at all.

[Robofiend]

I still feel like you guys are underestimating the power of Xatu or Kadabra, especially late game when your enemy's team is weakened. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to run Kingler, Hitmonlee, Sharpedo, Zangoose, Scizor or any physical sweeper, I'm saying that special Sweepers do a damn good job of taking out any/all of them once they've been weakened a little by entry damage.

[DoubleJ]

Kadabra is shit though. I mean it dies to a pika espeed with little attack investment. It's speed isn't that great either. Xatu though is on point.

[Robofiend]

So back to my original point about Physical vs. Special. This will probably be my last post in the thread so I want to make it count:

 

It's well agreed upon at this point that Physical attackers are highly viable, that walls are fairly common in UU and that Special Sweepers are relatively underused in comparison to either class of pokemon.

 

Physical attackers aren't more viable than special by some inherent factor, they're viable relative to the rest of the metagame. Like I've said before, Xatu poops on Hitmonlee, Kingler, Slowking, Vileplume, Steelix, and Scizor. So why isn't it used, especially when these pokemon are widely regarded as some of the best in the tier? Even if Kingler and Hitmonlee are really good in their own right, wouldn't it be even better to run something that can switch in against STAB Psychic and Giga Drain? Is it any surprise that Scizor and Hitmonlee are the two most common attackers in the tier, given the lack of pokemon that can stop them after setting up or taking a CB attack to the face? Is it a surprise that Slowking, the only thing that reliably checks both pokemon is also incredibly common?

 

The only answer is that there's something preventing pokemon like Xatu from balancing out the strengths of these pokemon, and you should already know where I'm going with this. The truth is that it doesn't matter how good Hitmonlee/Scizor/Kingler are or that they have boosting moves that are better than CM when you look at the calcs:

 

252 SpA Xatu Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 424-500 (123.2 - 145.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Xatu Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hitmonlee: 218-260 (90 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Xatu Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingler: 228-270 (90.8 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Xatu Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 260-308 (73.4 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Xatu Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Steelix: 250-296 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Xatu Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Exeggutor: 376-444 (95.4 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Xatu Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 124-146 (31.4 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I'm not saying that Xatu has some "right" to be used in UU, but isn't it weird that it does this well against so much of the metagame and sees less than 9% usage? Doesn't it seem imbalanced that a pokemon that would otherwise be viable is stuck in players PC's mostly because of one pokemon that shuts it down? Seems kind of like what we say with Snorlax in OU - with access to Curse and Pursuit it made running special offense into a setup opportunity or an easy opportunity to wear down or kill an enemy pokemon. Because of this, Starmie was practically unused, Jolteon was fairly rare and Gengar couldn't afford to run a Sweeper set.

 

Back to what I've been saying: it's not just Xatu who falls into this category in UU. Manectric, Haunter and even Kadabra have move options to threaten most of these pokemon as well and don't really need the set up because of their good speed tiering. There are even more beyond them that might be usable in a metagame without Umbreon (Ninetales, Lanturn, other pokes that lose to Umbreon Toxic stall). And it's not like they'd be unchecked nightmares who see 50% usage without Umbreon in the game, Chansey could still wall them, but they'd at least be somewhat viable. Look at the calcs for how badly Umbreon shuts the other top special sweepers down:

 

Staying in:

0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 116-138 (50.2 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(compare to 252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Umbreon: 90-106 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery)

0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 84-98 (30.9 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

(compare that to +6 252 SpA Xatu Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Umbreon: 346-408 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO)

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Umbreon: 88-105 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

(compare to 252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Umbreon: 88-105 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery)

 

Switching out:

0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric: 93-109 (33 - 38.7%) -- 6.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 164-194 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 228-270 (98.7 - 116.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

 

So what you see is that there's realistically no chance for these pokemon to be effective if they face an opponent running Umbreon (which 1/5 of people do). Again, it's not that these pokemon deserve to be used, it's that they could be used given how well they do against other top threats but aren't used simply because of the presence of one pokemon. Don't believe me? 

 

Haunter:

252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Exeggutor: 342-404 (103.3 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Haunter Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 198-234 (55.9 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 222-264 (56.3 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Haunter Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Steelix: 200-236 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Haunter Hidden Power Fire vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 340-400 (102.7 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hitmonlee: 126-148 (52 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingler: 234-276 (93.2 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

 

Manectric:

252 SpA Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 196-232 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Steelix: 254-300 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 248-294 (62.9 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Manectric Flamethrower vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Scizor: 428-508 (129.3 - 153.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hitmonlee: 124-147 (51.2 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingler: 464-548 (184.8 - 218.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Manectric Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Exeggutor: 254-300 (76.7 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

While neither are quite as good as Xatu, both have advantages: Manectric hits an amazing speed stat and cool ability that allows it to steal a Tpunch and turn it into a boost and Haunter's Normal/Fighting resistance and access to support moves like WoW and Disable is notable.

 

The bottom line: I just showed you 3 pokemon (and hinted at others) that are not used because of the presence of one relatively highly used pokemon. If we're going to look at some criteria for deciding whether something is healthy and apply them to Umbreon, here's what you get:

 

Is it too good not to use?

>Debateable, we'd have to spend some time talking about how good it is at supporting with Wish/HealBell to get an idea of that and my fingers are tired

Does it limit teambuilding?

>Just showed pretty definitively that it does

Does it force the metagame to stagnate, resulting in an unevolving metagame

>Another question that deserves some love, I'd say that limiting teambuilding as much as Umbreon does definitely prevents innovation.

Does it's presence alone make certain archetypes/playstyles non-viable?

>Yes, it is not possible to run teams that utilize CM or multiple Special Sweepers. It also incentivizes stall by passing Wishes to other walls, scouting CB users with Protect, healing status with Heal Bell, or by Mean Look/Toxic/Taunt stalling set up pokes. 

[DrCraig]

Look at the calcs for how badly Umbreon shuts the other top special sweepers down:

 

Staying in:

0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 116-138 (50.2 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(compare to 252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Umbreon: 90-106 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery)

0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 84-98 (30.9 - 36.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

(compare that to +6 252 SpA Xatu Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Umbreon: 346-408 (87.8 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO)

252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Umbreon: 88-105 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

(compare to 252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Umbreon: 88-105 (22.3 - 26.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery)

 

Switching out:

0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manectric: 93-109 (33 - 38.7%) -- 6.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 164-194 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Umbreon Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 228-270 (98.7 - 116.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Might I add that Umbreon's amazing special defense gives it room to run even over 100 ATK EVs and still be effective as a wall, thus putting an even larger hole the special offense it limits.

 

 

Is it too good not to use?

>Debateable, we'd have to spend some time talking about how good it is at supporting with Wish/HealBell to get an idea of that and my fingers are tired

Does it limit teambuilding?

>Just showed pretty definitively that it does

Does it force the metagame to stagnate, resulting in an unevolving metagame

>Another question that deserves some love, I'd say that limiting teambuilding as much as Umbreon does definitely prevents innovation.

Does it's presence alone make certain archetypes/playstyles non-viable?

>Yes, it is not possible to run teams that utilize CM or multiple Special Sweepers. It also incentivizes stall by passing Wishes to other walls, scouting CB users with Protect, healing status with Heal Bell, or by Mean Look/Toxic/Taunt stalling set up pokes. 

Well said Robo.

Edited April 22, 2015 by DrCraig

[Pedrr]

Does it's presence alone make certain archetypes/playstyles non-viable?

>Yes, it is not possible to run teams that utilize CM or multiple Special Sweepers. It also incentivizes stall by passing Wishes to other walls, scouting CB users with Protect, healing status with Heal Bell, or by Mean Look/Toxic/Taunt stalling set up pokes. 

yes it's absolutly the playstyles of the UU metagame today  :wacko:

[Tyrone]

Umbreon is an incredibly rewarding Special wall; apart from innate bulk complemented with reliable recovery, Taunt and clerical utility, what adds insult to injury is it's access to Pursuit that allows it to checkmate specific, prominent special attacking Pokemon in UU. Singlehandedly Umbreon is capable of removing specific Pokemon easily when it gets the chance just by switching in. Umbreon's presence alone has unhealthily and significantly diminished the viability of Special Attacking Pokemon in UU, leading to problems such as the lack of diversity and innovation in teambuilding, which stands as an unhealthy form of centralization despite the various means UU can offer to fare against it. 

 

As a result, the council has decided to ban Umbreon from UU to BL.