UU Viability Thread

[DoubleJ]

Absolutely loving the diversity in UU. 21 pokes with double digit usage. Fuarking glorious.


I guess it isn't that big of a deal having 21 pokes with 10%+ usage since OU has 20. The real diversity comes in between 5-10% where UU has 14 vs the 6 in OU.

#diversity

[DrCraig]

Well I'm going to pretend I look at this thread and make the following changes:

• Blastoise has been moved down to B+ Rank; Blastoise is no doubt a great poke, but just has not seen its fair share of use due to threats like Lee, Azumarill, and Kingler. It fits the description for B tier viability in my opinion, thanks to being pointed out by yous guyss. Blastoise was once a staple, but now is just a background character. If anybody has reason to move it down further, or back up to A rank, please discuss. I do not see it being as viable as the Pokemon already in the tier, or fit their description.

 

• Azumarill has been moved up to A Rank; Azumarill, as I have seen, is now a strong pressure on the meta. It's stab waterfall paired with a normal move works beautifully with its bulk, invested or not. Azumarill is a force, most of the time on it's own, and I believe deserved more love.

   

  fail comment sry

  This was not a fail comment.

I believe Azumarill should be move from B+ to A.

The CB set with speed EVs is an extremely powerful hit and run threat and deserves in my opinion more recognition. None of the walls in UU can safe switch on him.

It think he is the best wall breaker in UU and therefore should be A.

          I'm happy you've brought it up actually.

          If anybody objects this decision or sees Azumarill is fit for a higher rank, please speak.

 

 

[spoiler]Don't worry, I actually read the thread.[/spoiler]

Edited May 18, 2015 by DrCraig

[gbwead]

Magmar should also be somewhere on this list. B rank or higher?

[Toast]

magneton is in ou

[DrCraig]

magneton is in ou

pls

Magmar should also be somewhere on this list. B rank or higher?

On phone so keep with me here

Discussions I'd like to see:
- Placement of Magmar; which I missed it seems
- Possible movement of Kingler
- Possible movement of Breloom Edited May 18, 2015 by DrCraig

[DoubleJ]

Magmar should certainly be a B+ or possibly even an A. I'm working on my write up in the other thread now. 

[gbwead]

With the omnipresence of Vileplume in usage, Breloom should probably go down to B+.
Breloom is a common threat, but can be countered really easily.

 

Fighting + electric is a decent coverage, with flaws nevertheless.

____________________________________________________________________________________
As for Kingler, he usually needs to set up in order to sweep and even then any priority move can stop him.
When he doesnt need a set up, he usually get countered completly by exeggutor.
He has decent def stat, but weak hp and spdef which makes it hard for him to come in play.
I don't think he should be moved up or down.

Edited May 18, 2015 by lamerb

[DrCraig]

I'm think Magmar would fit B+ because it succeeds best with team support, but can definitely be a threat by itself. Its sweeping ability warrants top tier B imo.

 

I think Breloom doesn't have much room to be offensive with the sleep nerf and fighting/elec coverage. Wall set works but it is outclassed by Plume and Exeggutor. I don't see it having much pressure on the tier, at least not as much as it did. I see it as a B+ or B.

 

I think Kingler is fine where it is at B+, but should definitely be considered for A.

[gbwead]

I am quite surpise to see Swellow and Fearow ranked so high when they can't do anything against rock/steelix type.
They hit hard but are also really predictable.
 

IMO: Swellow A+ --> A

        Fearow A --> B+

[DrCraig]

I am quite surpise to see Swellow and Fearow ranked so high when they can't do anything against rock/steelix type.
They hit hard but are also really predictable.
 

IMO: Swellow A+ --> A

        Fearow A --> B+

They fit the description in my opinion, for their respective roles. Aside from the rock and steel, they do sweep a lot and hit very hard. Fearow does the same think with a better stab. They might be predictable, but with that bit of support, they shine on their own.Their offensive pressure results in the fact that they both hold large shares in the influence on people actually running rock a steel. 

[gbwead]

I agree with what you said about Fearow.
As for Swellow, when look at him next to Grandbull and Manectric, I just dont see the same kind of pressure coming from him. Is he even viable without CB? Does he puts more pressure on the metagame than Exeggutor, Houndoom, Vileplume and Kanghaskhan?

Edited May 18, 2015 by lamerb

[BurntZebra]

I agree with what you said about Fearow.
As for Swellow, when look at him next to Grandbull and Manectric, I just dont see the same kind of pressure coming from him. Is he even viable without CB?

atm theres no reason to run non cb swellow, if we get toxic/flame orb, a bit different story

Edited May 18, 2015 by BurntZebra

[DrCraig]

I agree with what you said about Fearow.
As for Swellow, when look at him next to Grandbull and Manectric, I just dont see the same kind of pressure coming from him. Is he even viable without CB? Does he puts more pressure on the metagame than Exeggutor, Houndoom, Vileplume and Kanghaskhan?

Pressure from Swellow and Fearow, in my opinion, is pretty obligatory when making a team. I think with Swellow, and most normal types, they are considered similarly. When I make a team, I most likely will go "hmm well I need a normal or rock like Steelix and Golem for normal spam." I may not consider them specifically, but they fall under the normal spam category, which is gruesome when you are talking about unresistant stab double edges and returns. The only reason I could see them moving down would be to both be in A. Lower would only be a stretch on the definition. I think Swellow moving from A+ to A should be considered. I know people will complain, like early in the birth of the list when they were the same rank, but they roughly do the same thing. One is quicker and has an ability, one has a better STAB and attack stat. Not enough of a differences to pull one down a whole rank from the other, however.

Swellow to A thoughts?

[gbwead]

"hmm well I need a normal or rock

Well it is clearly an easy solution but that doesn't mean they are mandatory.
CB Swellow doesn't do anything against protect, since the person can simply switch on a ghost or electric type (Ampharos and Lanturn can be quite bulky).

Then there is grandbull who can arguable take a hit with intimidate:
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Swellow Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 73-87 (37 - 44.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

And then he forces Swellow out with Return since the Return dmg + the Recoil dmg of Double-Edge = Dead Swellow
0 Atk Granbull Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Swellow: 102-120 (75 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Don't get me wrong Rock and Steel type are the best solution, but there is still some room for alternative play styles.

Edited May 18, 2015 by lamerb

[DrCraig]

Not running a ghost/rock/steel is generally silly. As I said Swellow/Fearow are only a "share" of the pressure. Other normal spammers include Kanga, Granbull and Zangoose.

You can get away with not running them, but being susceptible to normal spam hurts.

[gbwead]

Not running a ghost/rock/steel is generally silly. As I said Swellow/Fearow are only a "share" of the pressure. Other normal spammers include Kanga, Granbull and Zangoose.

You can get away with not running them, but being susceptible to normal spam hurts.

Oh definitely!! I was just saying that Ghost can also be used to avoid normal spam.

[fredrichnietze]

Oh definitely!! I was just saying that Ghost can also be used to avoid normal spam.

tfw only viable wall ghost in UU is missy which is 2hko'd by most physical dark moves and has no healing outside of rest and ps.

[gbwead]

My point is that Swellow is currently A+. Why is he A+? What makes him an equal of Grandbull and a more viable option than Zangoose? It is not the normal spam; Zangoose and Grandbull do that better. It would be possible to argue that the combination of Flying + Normal stab forces people to use rock or steel type.

But that's the only coverage he has!!! You could easily run Shuckle or Cradily to wall double-edge and use Lanturn or Ampharos to wall the flying stab.

I am not trying to say that we should use Ghost to counter Swellow but that he gives an opening to electric bulky types (and not only Rock/Steel). His poor coverage also puts less pressure on Cradily and Shuckle that both Zangoose (immunity makes shuckle completly useless) and Grandbull handle very well.

 

Edit: Swellow is also more fragile than both Grandbull and Zangoose.

Edit2: I would also like to add that Swellow is currently (that will probably change) a NU pokemon!!! With a A+ rank in UU ...

          Fearow which is apparently a lesser version of Swellow is UU but with a worse rank (A).

          This is really strange.

Edited May 19, 2015 by lamerb

[fredrichnietze]

My point is that Swellow is currently A+. Why is he A+? What makes him an equal of Grandbull and a more viable option than Zangoose? It is not the normal spam; Zangoose and Grandbull do that better. It would be possible to argue that the combination of Flying + Normal stab forces people to use rock or steel type.
But that's the only coverage he has!!! You could easily run Shuckle or Cradily to wall double-edge and use Lanturn or Ampharos to wall the flying stab.

I am not trying to say that we should use Ghost to counter Swellow but that he gives an opening to electric bulky types (and not only Rock/Steel). His poor coverage also puts less pressure on Cradily and Shuckle that both Zangoose (immunity makes shuckle completly useless) and Grandbull handle very well.
 
Edit: Swellow is also more fragile than both Grandbull and Zangoose.
Edit2: I would also like to add that Swellow is currently (that will probably change) a NU pokemon!!! With a A+ rank in UU ...
          Fearow which is apparently a lesser version of Swellow is UU but with a worse rank (A).
          This is really strange.

i agree that fearow should be slightly moved down since swellow outclass's it. however i think you are underestimating the power of swellow.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the UU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.
 
swellow can sweep most pokemon with very little support and arguably is one of the best late game sweepers in the entire tier. there are a few rocks and steels that can wall it, but thats it. all the ghost die to flying/pursuit except max def Missy which is 2-3hko'd depending on invest. and everything else dies or takes significant damage form swellow. further more swellow can pursuit trap every ghost except missy with max health and max def. it also can revenge kill just about every reversal/flail/bdrumer there is.

 

swellow does it's job better then anything else in the tier and it does it well. further more it forces people to bring counters to the normal/flying spam. i think it well deserves it ranking and it was seriously looked at for uber characteristics in the early days of UU.

[gbwead]

I just dont see it as a A+.

 

there are a few rocks and steels that can wall it, but thats it.

Protect is a really easy way to deal with Swellow. Electric bulky types can switch in on him.

 

 

swellow does it's job better then anything else in the tier and it does it well.

This is really subjective and debatable. Swellow is fast, but not as strong as other sweeper in the tier.

 

 

 further more it forces people to bring counters to the normal/flying spam.

I could also say that he allows his counters to be played. For instance, he allows bulky omastar to set up spikes which is not possible against other Normal spamming sweepers like Kanghaskan (EQ), Zangoose (SD) or Grandbull (Superpower).

Normal+Flying is an extremely poor coverage. Not only does he have specific counters that can set up thanks to his crippling CB and poor coverage, he also needs to deal with regular walls like Steelix that people would play even if Swellow was absent.

 

 

Swellow is a A rank threat, but since he also gives some viability to many counters, he should not be looked as more than A. A+ should be reserved for more proeminent pressure points of the current meta.

 

[fredrichnietze]

I just dont see it as a A+.

 

Protect is a really easy way to deal with Swellow. Electric bulky types can switch in on him.

protect everything teams are a thing?

This is really subjective and debatable. Swellow is fast, but not as strong as other sweeper in the tier.

i dont see it as subjective. swellow is the fastest physical sweeper with coverage that can kill most things. unlike trode it can actually damage you, and unlike crobat it has great coverage that does actual damage not super fang anti wall shit. with guts it can do massive amounts of damage and without it, it can still 1-2hko a large portion of the meta. it has counters, but they can all be trapped by diglette.

I could also say that he allows his counters to be played. For instance, he allows bulky omastar to set up spikes which is not possible against other Normal spamming sweepers like Kanghaskan (EQ), Zangoose (SD) or Grandbull (Superpower).

Normal+Flying is an extremely poor coverage. Not only does he have specific counters that can set up thanks to his crippling CB and poor coverage, he also needs to deal with regular walls like Steelix that people would play even if Swellow was absent.

 

Swellow is a A rank threat, but since he also gives some viability to many counters, he should not be looked as more than A. A+ should be reserved for more proeminent pressure points of the current meta.

yes he has counters (wouldnt be UU otherwise) and yes some things can set up on him. however they are few and swellow is a trapper/revenge killer/late game sweeper not a wall breaker. its not going to come in turn one and sweep your entire team. nothing will if you have a decent team. but once the team has been damaged it will come in and punish you.

[gbwead]

yes he has counters (wouldnt be UU otherwise) and yes some things can set up on him. however they are few and swellow is a trapper/revenge killer/late game sweeper not a wall breaker. its not going to come in turn one and sweep your entire team. nothing will if you have a decent team. but once the team has been damaged it will come in and punish you.

He is way too fragile to come in early. I agree.

 

Howerver, in the current meta I think wall breakers are more useful than late game sweepers. He is indeed a trapper, but a trapper that traps himself on pursuit which can also be an opportunity for an opposing sweeper to set up and sweep.

Here is how I see it basically: Swellow is not a walbreaker, but he needs to hold an walbreaker item (CB) which cripples his ability to sweep late game.

[fredrichnietze]

He is way too fragile to come in early. I agree.

 

Howerver, in the current meta I think wall breakers are more useful than late game sweepers. He is indeed a trapper, but a trapper that traps himself on pursuit which can also be an opportunity for an opposing sweeper to set up and sweep.

Here is how I see it basically: Swellow is not a walbreaker, but he needs to hold an walbreaker item (CB) which cripples his ability to sweep late game.

ahh but their are more then one play style. the value of wall breakers, walls, and sweepers change based on your team and the team you are fighting. also pursuit is only to be used to trap and kill something with healing at low health(wall) or ghost you want to be rid of (haunter) and allowing the possible set up is the risk and cost of purusit. if you do not want that risk then you the player can choose not to take it. anything that will die from pursuit will also die from wing attack or d edge if they stay in so you can choose a more offensive strategy and hit the set up poke harder if they siwtch. and having cb=/=wall breaker. aero is the very definition of sweeper and it always has cb. the whole point of sweepers is to support them so they can sweep, and to revenge kill things(mostly wall breakers and sometimes badly damaged walls/other sweepers). choice band makes swellow a better sweeper not a worse one. the trapper role is just a added bonus to this sweeper.

[gbwead]

ahh but their are more then one play style. the value of wall breakers, walls, and sweepers change based on your team and the team you are fighting. also pursuit is only to be used to trap and kill something with healing at low health(wall) or ghost you want to be rid of (haunter) and allowing the possible set up is the risk and cost of purusit. if you do not want that risk then you the player can choose not to take it. anything that will die from pursuit will also die from wing attack or d edge if they stay in so you can choose a more offensive strategy and hit the set up poke harder if they siwtch. and having cb=/=wall breaker. aero is the very definition of sweeper and it always has cb. the whole point of sweepers is to support them so they can sweep, and to revenge kill things(mostly wall breakers and sometimes badly damaged walls/other sweepers). choice band makes swellow a better sweeper not a worse one. the trapper role is just a added bonus to this sweeper.

I agree with most of what you said, but I have a hard time seeing Vileplume, Exeggutor, Kanghaskan and Houndoom in A when I consider them more a pressure on the meta than Swellow.
 

It also really bugs me to see Swellow in NU if he is that good of a sweeper.

[DrCraig]

It won't be NU, by the way.

Edited May 19, 2015 by DrCraig