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UU Viability Thread


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Did we all just forget about Granbull, CM Slowking, SD Breloom, Rain Dance Omastar, Sunny Day Exeggutor, Curse Cradily, Flail Kingler, CM Misdreavus, SubPunch Muk, Pikachu, CM Ninetales, or even Belly Drum Magmar?

 

We have a ton of offensive variety in this tier that can break our current core. You just need to stop copying other players and find the good stuff. 

this 110%

I think the reason why these pokes aren't being used is because the lack of teambuilding (this is my opinion). The pokes you've listed kinda share one same property, it's hard checked/countered by a single poke, and I believe this is where better teambuilding comes along. Bull is stopped by omastar (in a way), CM slowking is stopped by craw, breloom plume, RD Omastar tentacruel, etc etc. The pokes you've listed (there are more, like that grumpig of yours) are pretty damn strong, but no-one seems to be using it because of those specific counters/checks. It may seem like UU is in a mess right now (and I do still agree with that in a way), but we gotta look at our diversity of pokes and use them as an advantage to team building. (lol fix breeding pls)

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bringing broken things to make the tier more offensive was already done before and didn't work (twice), why try it again?

 

I would say that from the suggested list only Medicham and Sceptile didn't have an opportunity in UU, the others had some time to be used and all went banned, don't see why consider the ones that were tried before.

 

Sceptile seems too strong, very versatile and by what I read in this thread it looks that it will be broken in UU.

 

Medicham is pretty strong, with e-punches it can break almost any wall, but Medi needs Choice Band and isn't that fast (ppl don't consider a base 100 speed tentalcruel fast, what can we say about a base 80 right?), with some predictions it can put down, but I'm unsure how many will go down before it happens

 

calcs:

[spoiler]

252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 132-156 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 126-150 (69.2 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 126-150 (69.2 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 48-57 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- 5.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 127-150 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 136-162 (69 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Claydol: 112-132 (67 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

[/spoiler]

 

Why are you not considering Dodrio? It got banned on the first list, almost noone in OU used and considering how bulky is the tier right now, it may be a good addition (or maybe too strong), but if you are considering stronger pokes like Marowak and Tauros is strange Dodrio never came to discussion.

Edited by felix
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bringing broken things to make the tier more offensive was already done before and didn't work (twice), why try it again?

I would say that from the suggested list only Medicham and Sceptile didn't have an opportunity in UU, the others had some time to be used and all went banned, don't see why consider the ones that were tried before.

Sceptile seems too strong, very versatile and by what I read in this thread it looks that it will be broken in UU.

Medicham is pretty strong, with e-punches it can break almost any wall, but Medi needs Choice Band and isn't that fast (ppl don't consider a base 100 speed tentalcruel fast, what can we say about a base 80 right?), with some predictions it can put down, but I'm unsure how many will go down before it happens

calcs:
[spoiler]
252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 132-156 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 126-150 (69.2 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 126-150 (69.2 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham ThunderPunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusclops: 48-57 (32.6 - 38.7%) -- 5.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Hi Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 127-150 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 136-162 (69 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Claydol: 112-132 (67 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
[/spoiler]

Why are you not considering Dodrio? It got banned on the first list, almost noone in OU used and considering how bulky is the tier right now, it may be a good addition (or maybe too strong), but if you are considering stronger pokes like Marowak and Tauros is strange Dodrio never came to discussion.

Dusclops will get moved up next usage cycle most likely so that removes the one Pokemon that can kind of handle medicham, everything else takes way too much on the switch, not to mention that a bulky recover bulk up medicham would beat most of its situational counters.
Realistically marowak won't get moved down because it's ridiculously powerful and doesn't have to be locked into choice band. Dodrio is pretty powerful with dual stabs and low kick that conveniently hits it's normal counters for 120 base power+super effective damage.

I wasn't really convinced of sceptile being banworthy when it was first banned. I never really saw it sweeping teams ever. I don't really recall usage being that high. It annoyed some noobs with its sub seed set but that's because of improper team building for the most part.
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I wasn't really convinced of sceptile being banworthy when it was first banned. I never really saw it sweeping teams ever. I don't really recall usage being that high. It annoyed some noobs with its sub seed set but that's because of improper team building for the most part.

I personally swept through 3 out of 4 (edit: 2 out of 3, forgot JWK played a round) opponents in COPE's magical 2nd place TT run using mostly sub/seed/hp ice/giga sceptile. Damn near beat coolio too, who lost 2-3 of his pokes just trying to dance around the damn lizard. I never really saw the SD version sweep, and i'm not sure i'd call the sub/seed version a sweeper either, so I'll agree with your sweeping comment. Don't remember usage either but I'd be surprised if scept ended up less than 25% usage right off the bat if it were moved down.

 

On paper scept looks slightly manageable so if y'all wanna bring it down for testing, go ahead. I'm pretty convinced what the end result will be, though

Edited by Gunthug
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I personally swept through 3 out of 4 (edit: 2 out of 3, forgot JWK played a round) opponents in COPE's magical 2nd place TT run using mostly sub/seed/hp ice/giga sceptile. Damn near beat coolio too, who lost 2-3 of his pokes just trying to dance around the damn lizard. I never really saw the SD version sweep, and i'm not sure i'd call the sub/seed version a sweeper either, so I'll agree with your sweeping comment. Don't remember usage either but I'd be surprised if scept ended up less than 25% usage right off the bat if it were moved down.

 

On paper scept looks slightly manageable so if y'all wanna bring it down for testing, go ahead. I'm pretty convinced what the end result will be, though

I just don't see that set being that threatening, considering the top pokemon can handle it pretty well (scizor/vileplume). Team tournament players aren't always the best, especially in the earlier rounds, as they can potentially be carried by their other team mates. 

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I just don't see that set being that threatening, considering the top pokemon can handle it pretty well (scizor/vileplume). Team tournament players aren't always the best, especially in the earlier rounds, as they can potentially be carried by their other team mates. 

Yolo - PWBR - CIX (pretty sure JWK used my sceptile against destruct, too) - RNG. I don't remember PWBR's UU player but I think he was decent, and then we had elcoolio destruct and misterhide, all solid players. I know this is anecdotal evidence but I'm usually pretty active in tiering, and I remember thinking to myself back then "holy shit this thing is broken." In fact, shortly after that TT, sceptile was banned to BL due in large part to observations at that tourney and a UU tourney before it. Again, I've gone over this, but vileplume/scizor are pretty shaky answers to sceptile. Plume has to be at full health or it dies, and it hates the sub endeavor set. Scizor just hates sub/seed in general, and even though I much prefer the HP ice set, i'm sure plenty of people will run HP fire to roast the shit out of scizor when it waddles in.

 

Again I think scept is one of those pokes that actually looks worse on paper than in action, but since I had a lot of experience with it in UU last time around I'm already convinced

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Since I didn't see Sceptile in action I can't really relate, but I feel like the meta last march was significantly different than it is now. I could still be wrong, I guess. I know I keep repeating this but if we think that Vileplume is too good/common/etc. then it shouldn't hurt to have Sceptile be able to beat it or take it down with one Niche set. Under normal battle conditions, SubEndeavor is functionally a 1 for 1 (at best). Players who can see it coming can abuse it by sending in Swellow (or Hitmon, whatever) on the Endeavor and then Pursuiting/Mach Punching you out.

 

Vileplume can also adapt, if it chooses, to the threat of HP Fire by investing in special defense.

 

Endeavor's a pain to play against but I don't see it as any more meta-breaking than SubSeed - it's also pretty easy to scout because of how necessary Leech Seed is to the Sub/Seed set to deal with things like Clefable.

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Since I didn't see Sceptile in action I can't really relate, but I feel like the meta last march was significantly different than it is now. I could still be wrong, I guess. I know I keep repeating this but if we think that Vileplume is too good/common/etc. then it shouldn't hurt to have Sceptile be able to beat it or take it down with one Niche set. Under normal battle conditions, SubEndeavor is functionally a 1 for 1 (at best). Players who can see it coming can abuse it by sending in Swellow (or Hitmon, whatever) on the Endeavor and then Pursuiting/Mach Punching you out.

 

Vileplume can also adapt, if it chooses, to the threat of HP Fire by investing in special defense.

 

Endeavor's a pain to play against but I don't see it as any more meta-breaking than SubSeed - it's also pretty easy to scout because of how necessary Leech Seed is to the Sub/Seed set to deal with things like Clefable.

re: the plume-sp def point, isnt plume basically forced to run max def to take crawdaunt crunches? Someone correct me if i'm wrong here, been away from the meta for a bit

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re: the plume-sp def point, isnt plume basically forced to run max def to take crawdaunt crunches? Someone correct me if i'm wrong here, been away from the meta for a bit

 

Well.. other things can be used Crawdaunt/Scizor (Breloom, Scizor, Slowking each can take certain attacks from either) it just so happens that Vileplume does a good job of checking everything. Vileplume still stops Superpower, Waterfall, Bullet Seed without the maximum defense stat.

 

Thus, players could choose to defend against Sceptile and use another pokemon to less reliably check Crawdaunt or Scizor in favor of having better defense against special attacks. It doesn't seem super likely, but it'd at least be a choice.

 

I may or may not have pointed this out before in this thread, but the thing that rubs me the wrong way about UU lately is that nothing runs more than one set. Sure, there are one-offs like Twave/CM Slowking or DD Crawdaunt, but generally the sets people run are amazingly unsurprising. Good metas incentivize innovation and polymorphism (srs couldn't think of a simpler word for many sets) and I don't see that in UU very often.

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Good metas incentivize innovation and polymorphism (srs couldn't think of a simpler word for many sets) and I don't see that in UU very often.

Clearly bringing broken things won't fix that.

 

The game itself doesn't help for innovation, would you spend shit load of money and resources to make a creative set and when you try it out see that it doesn't work as you though it would? I believe that mostly of the competitive players think that its better spend their money in something that they know will work.

 

our competitive community looks very new, I believe that our players learned competitive playing in this game, we can't say that it is an experienced community as well, so it will take time until people really starts building their own sets, which imho will only happen when breeding will be less expensive.

Edited by felix
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Clearly bringing broken things won't fix that.

The game itself doesn't help for innovation, would you spend shit load of money and resources to make a creative set and when you try it out see that it doesn't work as you though it would? I believe that mostly of the competitive players think that its better spend their money in something that they know will work.

our competitive community looks very new, I believe that our players learned competitive playing in this game, we can't say that it is an experienced community as well, so it will take time until people really starts building their own sets, which imho will only happen when breeding will be less expensive.


This statement is pretty accurate. Maybe it's time for more "JJ Bored at..." pieces
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Clearly bringing broken things won't fix that.

 

 

Clearly.

 

But I'm not suggesting we bring down broken stuff, I'm suggesting we bring down Sceptile, who doesn't actually look broken when you look at the calcs. However, I do like your point about how many noobs this game has, and how costly comps are, so its not surprising that we don't have a lot of innovation or good teambuilding.

 

That said "blame the game" doesn't really do too much for tiering and I've tried to sell DS on ideas like inheritable EVs, redistributable EVs, etc. to let players experiment more with their comps. So far no luck there, but the bottom line is that we have to work with what we have to get good metagames and that might not be super easy.

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Clearly.

 

But I'm not suggesting we bring down broken stuff, I'm suggesting we bring down Sceptile, who doesn't actually look broken when you look at the calcs. However, I do like your point about how many noobs this game has, and how costly comps are, so its not surprising that we don't have a lot of innovation or good teambuilding.

 

That said "blame the game" doesn't really do too much for tiering and I've tried to sell DS on ideas like inheritable EVs, redistributable EVs, etc. to let players experiment more with their comps. So far no luck there, but the bottom line is that we have to work with what we have to get good metagames and that might not be super easy.

just so we are clear here (and to bump this discussion), the original post of yours that Tyrone posted was suggesting more than just Sceptile (Medicham, Tauros, Marowak and Alakazam where included and all of those can be considered broken in UU).

 

as for the rest i would say, fair enough, makes sense and this is not the thread to complain about the slowlyness of this game was just my thoughts about the lack of innovative stuff.

 

as for the Sceptile back thing, I do feel a bit worried that it could be too much, his base stats looks pretty good for UU and its flexibility can be too much, but I don't feel that it shouldn't be tested and to tell the truth i would like to see if it can bring some new things to UU.

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just so we are clear here (and to bump this discussion), the original post of yours that Tyrone posted was suggesting more than just Sceptile (Medicham, Tauros, Marowak and Alakazam where included and all of those can be considered broken in UU).

 

as for the rest i would say, fair enough, makes sense and this is not the thread to complain about the slowlyness of this game was just my thoughts about the lack of innovative stuff.

 

as for the Sceptile back thing, I do feel a bit worried that it could be too much, his base stats looks pretty good for UU and its flexibility can be too much, but I don't feel that it shouldn't be tested and to tell the truth i would like to see if it can bring some new things to UU.

 

Well I wasn't suggesting them myself so much as offering up ideas for people to discuss, the original wording was more like "here are some possibilities for where the tier could go because recently a lot of people have been complaining that wallteams are too good/common". I like Sceptile in particular because of how well Plume does against a lot of its sets but I'm not like dead set on bringing it down for testing.

 

This all kinda came from the request that we ban Slowking, which might in turn cause more bans and prolong the imbalance in the tier... That idea should probably be discussed more.

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Well I wasn't suggesting them myself so much as offering up ideas for people to discuss, the original wording was more like "here are some possibilities for where the tier could go because recently a lot of people have been complaining that wallteams are too good/common". I like Sceptile in particular because of how well Plume does against a lot of its sets but I'm not like dead set on bringing it down for testing.

 

This all kinda came from the request that we ban Slowking, which might in turn cause more bans and prolong the imbalance in the tier... That idea should probably be discussed more.

 

While I do view Sceptile's diversity as being fairly scary for UU, I would also support a test period of say 5 tournaments, just to ensure that we aren't excluding something that could help the tier. 

 

My only real concern, aside from +2 Sceptile sweeps, is going to be our reliance on Vileplume. It already has the highest usage in the tier and if we introduce a powerful threat that is only really countered by Vileplume, how much reliance would we create?

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While I do view Sceptile's diversity as being fairly scary for UU, I would also support a test period of say 5 tournaments, just to ensure that we aren't excluding something that could help the tier. 

 

My only real concern, aside from +2 Sceptile sweeps, is going to be our reliance on Vileplume. It already has the highest usage in the tier and if we introduce a powerful threat that is only really countered by Vileplume, how much reliance would we create?

 

Yeah, this is a legit concern, although it is notable that Sceptile can put a good sized dent in Plume or even 2 shot it with some spikes support. LF Fearow, I guess.

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Yeah, this is a legit concern, although it is notable that Sceptile can put a good sized dent in Plume or even 2 shot it with some spikes support. LF Fearow, I guess.

 

Nah, need something that can take Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, and HP Fire, while being able to deliver a good punch to Vileplume. Fearow just can't switch in unless we know Vileplume is going to Synthesis or Moon Light. 

 

lf Muk. 

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pls ban

 

Please, Victreebel doesn't have the bulk. It gets 2HKO'd by so many threats, unlike Vileplume.

 

*** Robo and I have been having a debate on how scary Victreebel is. TBH, Grass-types have a strong influence on the meta because of our lack of defensive fire types and very few viable Steel-types in PokeMMO. 

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Please, Victreebel doesn't have the bulk. It gets 2HKO'd by so many threats, unlike Vileplume.

 

*** Robo and I have been having a debate on how scary Victreebel is. TBH, Grass-types have a strong influence on the meta because of our lack of defensive fire types and very few viable Steel-types in PokeMMO. 

 

Lol yeah, that derail - everyone else can disregard.

 

I do agree that Grassers are scary because we don't have defensive fire types or many viable answers to Grass/Fire. Also sucks because we don't have any of the good Flying, Fire or Psychic phys. moves so grass/poison types can sponge pretty much everything on the phys side without fear. LF devs to fix that.

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Lol yeah, that derail - everyone else can disregard.

 

I do agree that Grassers are scary because we don't have defensive fire types or many viable answers to Grass/Fire. Also sucks because we don't have any of the good Flying, Fire or Psychic phys. moves so grass/poison types can sponge pretty much everything on the phys side without fear. LF devs to fix that.

 

Yup, lf Heatran. 

 

 

EDIT: Actually, Muk is a pretty decent check to all grass-types, excluding Exeggutor. Only +2 Double-Edge from Victreebel really scares it outside and even then it does not 1HKO. 

 

252 Atk Muk Fire Punch vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Victreebel: 104-124 (61.9 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Victreebel Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 164-193 (77.3 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Edited by DoubleJ
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Nah, need something that can take Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, and HP Fire, while being able to deliver a good punch to Vileplume. Fearow just can't switch in unless we know Vileplume is going to Synthesis or Moon Light. 

 

lf Muk. 

 

0 SpA Vileplume Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Thick Fat Grumpig: 11-13 (5.8 - 6.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

(Calc with 70 Base)

0 SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Grumpig: 31-37 (16.5 - 19.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

(Calc with 75 Base)

0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Grumpig: 37-45 (19.7 - 24%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

0 SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vileplume: 102-122 (56 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I don't really know why does people stop using Grumpig, his special bulky is pretty good to dent Vileplume and Slowking (Signal Beam/Hidden Power Dark), since both usually goes with bold 252HP and 252 Def.

 

The only problem is that Pig needs to rest, but with that bulky isn't really a problem to rest for 2 turns, also, calm mind pig can setup against both guys. And you can run Hidden Power Fire for Scizor, the 4MSS is real, but you can run something like, Hidden Power Fire, Signal Beam, Psychic, Rest/Calm Mind. 

 

Flareon could be a decent Plume check, I don't know why for some reason people stopped looking to the old UU, I'm very surprised to see things like Lapras in NU when something like Plume sits on 44% usage

 

0 SpA Vileplume Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Lapras: 84-102 (35.4 - 43%) -- 90.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

200+ SpA Lapras Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vileplume: 138-164 (75.8 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

all that plume do after switch in is synthesis/moonlight, it never attacks on the switch unless endgame :P

 

 

anyway, I think there are ways to hold down the current top usage pokes, ppl just need to look.

 

I do agree with J, would be fine a 5 tournament test to see how the lizard will do, if it improve the tier would be nice, if not, it can sit on the limbo.

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