[UU Discussion] Sceptile (Banned from UU to BL)

[Tyrone]

As you might have noticed, Sceptile has dropped in usage of OU and has now dipped below the cut-off point for OU. This means we'll be looking into whether if fits in the UU Tier or whether it will be banned to BL.

The UU Council feels like Sceptile definitely deserves a chance in the UU Tier. This thread exists to discuss whether the community agrees with us on this one.

 

Important moves:

leech seed

synthesis

toxic

substitute

swords dance

agility

leaf blade

giga drain

dragon claw

earthquake

crunch

pursuit

thunderpunch (for mantine)

swagger

return

quick attack

 

common movesets:

-Sdance Set:

swords dance

earthquake

leaf blade

pursuit/dragon claw/ crunch

 

-Subseed:

substitute

leech seed

giga drain

hidden power/ toxic / synthesis

 

-Hasty mixed attacker:

giga drain/hidden power

leaf blade

swords dance

earthquake

 

-Choice Band:

pursuit

leaf blade

earthquake

crunch/dragon claw/ quick attack

 

Next weekend (17-18-19) the decision will be made to suspect test this pokemon in UU or quickban to BL.

[YagamiNoir]

Sceptile's probably the unpredictable kind. You won't know if it'll run a move to screw up something you bring in to counter it, such as either a specific Hidden Power and the like. I'm pretty sure you can't find a 100% counter to this thing. The Swords Dance set seems a bit too off the hook. 

 

Crobat is probably the best thing against it. It can outspeed it, stop utility shenanigans with Taunt, has a Super Effective Dual STAB, and the like. A boosted ThunderPunch hurts it for an OHKO, noting that Crobat can't even reliably OHKO the thing with a 252 Sludge Bomb, but I suppose it works. Unless you run something like Choice Band Wing Attack. 

+2 Sceptile ThunderPunch vs. 4/0 Crobat: 156-184 (97.5 - 115%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

+2 Sceptile ThunderPunch vs. 252/0 Crobat: 156-184 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Crobat Sludge Bomb vs. 4/0 Sceptile: 88-104 (60.2 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Crobat Sludge Bomb vs. 4/0 Sceptile: 122-144 (83.5 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

It's a kill factoring Poison, but it'll kill you next turn before it activates anyway if you're the squishy attacking Crobat. So the bulkier set generally fares against it better than the offensive one. 

 

Altaria can phaze away annoying SubSeed, but dislikes Dragon Claw (although running it solely for Altaria probably isn't really that good) or Hidden Power Ice.

252 Sceptile Hidden Power Ice vs. 252/252+ Altaria: 102-120 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 Sceptile Dragon Claw vs. 252/252 Altaria: 107-126 (58.7 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 Sceptile Dragon Claw vs. 252/0 Altaria: 151-178 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

Porygon2 is...alright, I guess. Let's see....

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sceptile: 86-102 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Sceptile Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Porygon2: 90-106 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Sceptile Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Porygon2: 100-118 (52 - 61.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I spoke too soon, but I suppose it can work.

 

Vileplume is immune to probably it's most annoying set being SubSeed. It's notable that Sceptile lives one Sludge Bomb from full health although Poison hax will finish it off, and there may come some cases where it may run less Speed for some bulk, but I don't know. 252/0 Vileplume is 2HKOed by +2 Earthquake/Aerial Ace, but I suppose it still fares fine. If you're physically Defensive, Aerial Ace is still a pain, but I suppose you can settle it. 

0 Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 4/0 Sceptile: 119-140 (81.5 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 Sceptile Aerial Ace vs. 252/0 Vileplume: 119-140 (65.3 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 Sceptile Earthquake vs. 252/0 Vileplume: 98-116 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 Sceptile Aerial Ace vs. 252/252+ Vileplume: 85-100 (46.7 - 54.9%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

And...that's it. I don't see anything anything really managing to wall this thing apart from maybe say Armaldo, which is annoyed the hell out of SubSeed.

 

It also gets things like Endeavor/Quick Attack, which is a pain. That and you probably only have Crobat and Swellow as revenge kill mediums for this thing.

 

EDIT: Bellossom can work provided it doesn't have Aerial Ace and has a Hidden Power to work with, but well, Bellossom. 

 

Special sets aren't as threatening as physical sets, making it probably the better option when opting for it offensively. While Off Topic, if Shiftry benefits from Nature Power/Earthquake here, it'd might be a worthy contender and stuff. 

 

EDIT 2: Unless I'm missing some counters here, I'd advocate for a BL ban. 

Edited April 13, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[DoubleJ]

Yagami put in a lot of work for the above calcs, but I just want to stop and state that Sceptile on paper appears as though it would simply be too much for the UU tier. That insane speed, ability to set-up Swords Dance, priority, STAB Grass with powerful coverage moves, and the ever destructive SUBSeed provides an unrivaled amount of versatility that could simply be too much for the limited pokes we have in UU to handle. Late-game sweeps eminent as our fire types are just not good enough to stop it, and even then it carries EQ.

 

Lf Xatu to slow it down.

[Toast]

agreed with JJ, looks good on paper but I feel like it may not perform as good as shown. We got plume, exegg, (steelix to an extent?), altaria, etc etc that can handle it pretty well

[Robofiend]

My thoughts:

 

Subseed: well checked by bulky grassers like Plume and Exegg, who find many other openings to get on teams (aka: not overly specific)

 

CB/SD: at base 85 attack with a lone, well-resisted STAB, it seems like even a boosted Sceptile is going to have trouble with some of our bulkier physical walls that aren't water type. 

 

Mixed: Imo the tier could use this, although Sceptile's movepool leaves a lot to be desired in terms of coverage.

 

Pursuit: Scary move on some pokes, but Sceptile doesn't execute the strategy half as well as Houndoom, even with some cool and high-powered moves. Its relative weakness to common Psychic/Ghost movesets (Signal Beam, Sludge Bomb) and STABs (Psychic, Shadow Ball) make it a pretty unreliable user of the move, as it seems like it will get a kill at best.

[OldKeith]

I guess the endeavor set is worth a mention.

 

Timid 252 Satk 248 Speed

 

Sub

Giga Drain

Hidden Power Fire

Endeavor

 

Pretty damaging to about anything. I think Sceptile is too strong for UU, but on the other hand it is probably too early to give a strong verdict.

[BurntZebra]

I guess the endeavor set is worth a mention.

 

Timid 252 Satk 248 Speed

 

Sub

Giga Drain

Hidden Power Fire

Endeavor

 

Pretty damaging to about anything. I think Sceptile is too strong for UU, but on the other hand it is probably too early to give a strong verdict.

Yeah at first I was thinking sceptile would be ok in UU just because of vileplume/exeggutor but it is quite easy to endeavor plume down to low hp where it will be in range of dying from hp fire/eq/whatever coverage move you want. I still think its worth testing though

[ThinkNice]

Why is nobody mentioning Cradily

[OldKeith]

Why is nobody mentioning Cradily

 

Well, because it doesn't resist Sceptile's STABs and because it cannot really touch Sceptile?

[ThinkNice]

Mfw forgot grass was neutral on it

[Gunthug]

How many threads must I post "lf meganium :(" in?

:(

Personally, I WANT sceptile down in UU because it's such a cool, versatile Pokemon. However I think we'd see after some testing that it's just too effective as a late game sweeper, and too unpredictable with its sets to be effectively stopped and countered before its ripped a hole in your team. I'm all for a test but my gut tells me sceptile will be too much

[OldKeith]

Yeah, no doubt it's too much, with that speed.

[fredrichnietze]

Yeah at first I was thinking sceptile would be ok in UU just because of vileplume/exeggutor but it is quite easy to endeavor plume down to low hp where it will be in range of dying from hp fire/eq/whatever coverage move you want. I still think its worth testing though

and then die to any priority?

[DrCraig]

and then die to any priority?

and then switch out*

 

[spoiler]And not get pursuit trapped[/spoiler]

[fredrichnietze]

and then switch out*

 

[spoiler]And not get pursuit trapped[/spoiler]

swellow

[DrCraig]

swellow

Swellow being the only pokemon to guarantee Endeavor won't do damage later exemplifies its strength pretty much.

You either:

• Use priority, Sceptile switches out
• Pursuit, Sceptile endeavors
• Pursuit trap with Swellow

Endeavor and the coverage Sceptile gets is definitely threatening enough to take down most of its checks and counters

 

I'd like to see Sceptile tested in UU though

[spoiler]Even though breeding is crap[spoiler]And Sceptile is a starter[spoiler]So you need 21k per female egg[spoiler]And achieving 31 speed is like impossible[spoiler]Unless you dump hours of time and breeders and money into the game[/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]

Edited April 15, 2015 by DrCraig

[Tyrone]

The UU Council has decided to test Sceptile in UU.

 

Input on whether is too strong for the tier during the test period is welcome.

[Pedrr]

scepile can be interesting in UU and made the metagame more agressive.

[Gunthug]

It pains me to do this, but I have to say I think Sceptile is too strong for UU. It's not that the SD set itself is too strong - It's not that the sub/seed set is too strong - It's not that the sub/endeavor set is too strong - and its not that the special sweeper set is too strong. The problem is that each of these sets has a very limited number of checks/counters, and the checks/counters for one set are blown away by certain other sets (Sp def vileplume counters the special sweeper set, even w/HP ice, but is destroyed by SD/Aerial ace if it switches in on a sub).

 

Unlike other pokemon which have a lot of versatility in UU (something like Nidoking comes to mind), each sceptile set is very strong in its own regard. You aren't sacrificing much power to catch your opponents off guard when running different sceptiles. Regardless of your set, you're outspeeding most of the meta with a +speed nature (bested only by +speed swellow/crobat I believe [and etrode but lel]), which is a huge positive. The sheer power of a stab giga drain/leaf blade forces a lot of switches, and late game it can come in as a revenge killer and get a free set up. Once it gets behind a sub, you still don't know what moveset it's running - it could swords dance, or it could leech seed you, or it could be going for the endeavor and hit hard until it gets there.

 

Though I've been having a lot of fun with sceptile over the last couple weeks, I do think it falls under the Offensive category for an Uber. It comes in on electric/ground/water attacks relatively easily, has good recovery options in synthesis/strong giga drain/leech seed, sets up fairly easily with its high speed and versatility behind a sub, and can eliminate its checks and counters with the right set. Just scouting this thing's moveset can eat up 2-3 pokemon if you're not careful. For these reasons, I think the Sceptile test has run its course, and sceptile should be sent to BL

[DoubleJ]

^ agreed

[Archinix]

So, any plans for the UU council to meet up? 

[DrCraig]

So, any plans for the UU council to meet up? 

They're always in contact, they just have to discuss in order to reach their own decision. And there really hasn't been much UU to test Sceptile, even if it is theoretically too strong.

[NikhilR]

They're always in contact, they just have to discuss in order to reach their own decision. And there really hasn't been much UU to test Sceptile, even if it is theoretically too strong.

 

I faced a Sceptile earlier in Jay's Tier Shift tourney and absolutely got rekt by one. With one SD, it just took out my full health slowking. A normal leafblade is a 3hko on misd but my shadowball put it in overgrow range which made it a 2hko.

 

In another match that I saw, Sceptile was stalling out the other guy's team with a sub-seed set which is just too strong because of how fast it is. 

 

Basically if you're not carrying vileplume, you're fucked. And even if you do carry vileplume, you need to be 252hp/def in order to survive that +2 Aerial Ace. 

[karimologia]

I think testing Sceptile was a Great idea, I don't consider SD Sceptile OP but Sub Seed is too f-annoying. Vileplume is not the only way to counter it, let's be a little more creative...

[Tyrone]

I know we haven't tested this for a long period, but the extra time we had to think about Sceptile has made the following decision quite clear:

 

Sceptile is a very threatening and powerful sweeper.  Sceptile has the ability to variate between physical, special and even mixed sets. It's diverse offensive movepool allows it to choose between a Swords Dance set, a special Attacking set, and a high-sustain SubSeed set that can be very annoying and go out of hand. Adding insult to injury and to top all these traits off, it sits at a very swift 120 Speed that means that it is very difficult to revenge kill apart from select few Pokemon that cannot comfortably cushion some of it's attacks. All this combined, it has proven to be a quite unstoppable late-game cleaner or wallbreaker.

 

As a result, the council has decided to ban Sceptile from UU to BL under the offensive characteristic.