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[Discussion] Snorlax (OU)


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I have this feeling it's not the first time they ask you this but...how do we define unhealthy? usage and?

what is this weird feeling of deja vu?

Anyway, i'm pretty sure a lot of people consider snorlax op, when was this estabilished? 

Unhealthy, does it restrict what pokemon are viable in a significant way, prevent the metagame from evolving/stagnate, significantly restrict teambuilding, etc; Basically, is it bad for the metagame to have around.

 

It was established in the beginning of this thread, and the entire reason for the test. If the question was "Is Snorlax OP", there wouldn't BE a test, it'd either be banned or not. The test isn't to see if Snorlax is OP. It's not. The reason for the test is to see if it's unhealthy.

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Unhealthy, does it restrict what pokemon are viable in a significant way, prevent the metagame from evolving/stagnate, significantly restrict teambuilding, etc; Basically, is it bad for the metagame to have around.

 

It was established in the beginning of this thread, and the entire reason for the test. If the question was "Is Snorlax OP", there wouldn't BE a test, it'd either be banned or not. The test isn't to see if Snorlax is OP. It's not. The reason for the test is to see if it's unhealthy.

 

Honestly, i thought it was quite the opposite.

It's clear that snorlax never (maybe i'm taking it too far)had much impact on team building, we just had a lot more people complaining about gengar for some reason, that's what i noticed. And ludicolo increased in usage after the ban, ofc.

I mean, you didn't carry a "snorlax counter" at least i didn't, nor i ever met anyone who did.

I have to admit people started using weird shit though, besides blissey.

 

So i thought it was all about it's opness,

 

As Gunthug said, think wrote a post on it, and i'm starting to remember it now. Maybe in this same thread.

Imma read it all once more if i can endure the walls of text.

 

Edit: Pretty sure we're gonna see it everywhere, but at least we know it just replaces blissey most of the times.

If he comes back, that is.

Edited by Vaeldras
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How I used to think my teams before Snorlax ban:

-Have something that can take Body Slams, ideally a ghost; if not, a cleric is needed.

-Have something that can Will-o-Wisp (not that many options in OU)

-Have something that can Roar or Haze if Lax curses and sleeps

 

How I think my teams now:

-Have something that can come in on a Blissey

 

I think the pressure Snorlax was putting on teambuilding was suffocating. I am personally glad that hell was over for a while, I don't want to see that beast making a return any time soon.

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How I used to think my teams before Snorlax ban:
-Have something that can take Body Slams, ideally a ghost; if not, a cleric is needed.
-Have something that can Will-o-Wisp (not that many options in OU)
-Have something that can Roar or Haze if Lax curses and sleeps

How I think my teams now:
-Have something that can come in on a Blissey

I think the pressure Snorlax was putting on teambuilding was suffocating. I am personally glad that hell was over for a while, I don't want to see that beast making a return any time soon.

I 100% agree with this sentament. Also its actually not punishing for you to run special attackers now. With lax it is actually punishing to run an entire team role.

Edit: also id like to point out that with this breeding system the meta is going to be even slower to adapt. There are a couple of things i know id like to try but havent gotten around to grinding. Maybe having an extention to the test could be an option too. Edited by codylramey
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How I used to think my teams before Snorlax ban:

-Have something that can take Body Slams, ideally a ghost; if not, a cleric is needed.

-Have something that can Will-o-Wisp (not that many options in OU)

-Have something that can Roar or Haze if Lax curses and sleeps

 

How I think my teams now:

-Have something that can come in on a Blissey

 

I think the pressure Snorlax was putting on teambuilding was suffocating. I am personally glad that hell was over for a while, I don't want to see that beast making a return any time soon.

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How I used to think my teams before Snorlax ban:

-Have something that can take Body Slams, ideally a ghost; if not, a cleric is needed.

-Have something that can Will-o-Wisp (not that many options in OU)

-Have something that can Roar or Haze if Lax curses and sleeps

 

How I think my teams now:

-Have something that can come in on a Blissey

 

I think the pressure Snorlax was putting on teambuilding was suffocating. I am personally glad that hell was over for a while, I don't want to see that beast making a return any time soon.

 

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How I used to think my teams before Snorlax ban:

-Have something that can take Body Slams, ideally a ghost; if not, a cleric is needed.

-Have something that can Will-o-Wisp (not that many options in OU)

-Have something that can Roar or Haze if Lax curses and sleeps

 

How I think my teams now:

-Have something that can come in on a Blissey

 

I think the pressure Snorlax was putting on teambuilding was suffocating. I am personally glad that hell was over for a while, I don't want to see that beast making a return any time soon.

if snor rest it is usually pretty predictable and you can switch to a SD user, set up, and kill lax. rhydon is the best thing to use for this but other options include sd blazkien, heracross, kingler if your that one guy trying to get it banned from uu, and many others. something i dont see mentioned often here is that when lax rest it usually only has +1-2 sometimes +3 but then it has to stay in for several turns without switching. if it switches then your lax is STILL alseep and no curse boost when it comes back in making it harder to set up. you can cleric but all this rest/switch/cleric stuff is allowing your opponent to set up. people can take advantage of these sleep turns which lax has to do cause attrition and i never see this mentioned here.

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if snor rest it is usually pretty predictable and you can switch to a SD user, set up, and kill lax. rhydon is the best thing to use for this but other options include sd blazkien, heracross, kingler if your that one guy trying to get it banned from uu, and many others. something i dont see mentioned often here is that when lax rest it usually only has +1-2 sometimes +3 but then it has to stay in for several turns without switching. if it switches then your lax is STILL alseep and no curse boost when it comes back in making it harder to set up. you can cleric but all this rest/switch/cleric stuff is allowing your opponent to set up. people can take advantage of these sleep turns which lax has to do cause attrition and i never see this mentioned here.

 

What do you think your opponent is trying to do when lax is cursing up? Because in the process of trying to get it to rest, lax will take out at least 2-3 members of your team. When lax is at +3, the only way you're going to force it to rest if it is statused by wow. If the lax is at low health, then yes you can predict rest but otherwise lax users will choose to rest whenever it wants if the status-er is something like weezing or just continue to curse up. So you're faced with the dilemma of whether or not to predict the rest or choose to bring your heracross/blaziken vs a lax that is setting up. And if you do switch them into a cursing lax, hera and blaziken will take quite a bit of dmg from body slam with the chance of para and you won't be any closer to taking it out as well. 

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How I used to think my teams before Snorlax ban:

-Have something that can take Body Slams, ideally a ghost; if not, a cleric is needed.

-Have something that can Will-o-Wisp (not that many options in OU)

-Have something that can Roar or Haze if Lax curses and sleeps

 

How I think my teams now:

-Have something that can come in on a Blissey

 

I think the pressure Snorlax was putting on teambuilding was suffocating. I am personally glad that hell was over for a while, I don't want to see that beast making a return any time soon.

 

 

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How I used to think my teams before Snorlax ban:
-Have something that can take Body Slams, ideally a ghost; if not, a cleric is needed.
-Have something that can Will-o-Wisp (not that many options in OU)
-Have something that can Roar or Haze if Lax curses and sleeps
 
How I think my teams now:
-Have something that can come in on a Blissey
 
I think the pressure Snorlax was putting on teambuilding was suffocating. I am personally glad that hell was over for a while, I don't want to see that beast making a return any time soon.


This is like the best quoting I've ever done! This summarizes all
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How I used to think my teams before Snorlax ban:

-Have something that can take Body Slams, ideally a ghost; if not, a cleric is needed.

-Have something that can Will-o-Wisp (not that many options in OU)

-Have something that can Roar or Haze if Lax curses and sleeps

 

How I think my teams now:

-Have something that can come in on a Blissey

 

I think the pressure Snorlax was putting on teambuilding was suffocating. I am personally glad that hell was over for a while, I don't want to see that beast making a return any time soon.

That is a fair point, but usage doesn't lie. Most people use these things on their team now too. You may think that it is sufficating you but most players are using the same pokes anyway with some adjusments in their core. That Ludicolo and Umbreon are more viable now doesn't give our metagame 'more variety'. The metagame doesn't look any better without Snorlax, hence there is no justification for banning it IMO ofc.

 

I guess the drop in Gengar is the most significant one.

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That is a fair point, but usage doesn't lie. Most people use these things on their team now too. You may think that it is sufficating you but most players are using the same pokes anyway with some adjusments in their core. That Ludicolo and Umbreon are more viable now doesn't give our metagame 'more variety'. The metagame doesn't look any better without Snorlax, hence there is no justification for banning it IMO ofc.
 
I guess the drop in Gengar is the most significant one.


There's more to usage than just what Pokemon is used, and you know that.
They're using different sets.
Now gengar isn't forced to run will o wisp, even though it's still good.
A lot of setup sweepers don't necesArily need lum since they don't need to fear body slam hax etc
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There's more to usage than just what Pokemon is used, and you know that.
They're using different sets.
Now gengar isn't forced to run will o wisp, even though it's still good.
A lot of setup sweepers don't necesArily need lum since they don't need to fear body slam hax etc

Not really convinced, Will -o Wisp is still one of the best choices on Gengar. Unpredictability is major issue with Gengar and Snorlax helps with that too. Setup sweepers should mostly carry Lum anyway for that Twave Blissey or that lucky freeze/burn/para.

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That is a fair point, but usage doesn't lie. Most people use these things on their team now too. You may think that it is sufficating you but most players are using the same pokes anyway with some adjusments in their core.

As i pointed out the meta is slower now to adjust than ever b4. Some of the usage of the same old same old may be able to be contributed to that.

 

 

That Ludicolo and Umbreon are more viable now doesn't give our metagame 'more variety'. The metagame doesn't look any better without Snorlax, hence there is no justification for banning it IMO ofc.

This is the complete opposite stance you took on meta game variety b4. When i argued a long time ago that you guys banning a bunch of shit was limiting variety you said that the banning of certain thing causes other things to be more viable thus giving the meta more variety. Also its hard to argue, even tho the usage stats may not yet show it, that starmie, espyeon, and even kingdra have become much more viable than before. Also Aerodyctyle is MUCH MUCH more viable bc he no longer has to worry about losing to a boosting lax and causing the team the loss due to failing to kill the lax.

Edited by codylramey
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[quote name="codylramey" post="1053371" timestamp="1431210164"]

As i pointed out the meta is slower now to adjust than ever b4. Some of the usage of the same old same old may be able to be contributed to that.

Aero more viable due to snorlax? What? Not like aero was to sweep when pokes are at full health anyway and you need spike support. Aero is pure late game sweeper,revenge killer,and lead that's about it. So I don't get why you keep saying it's more viable just because of snorlax when it shouldn't be challenging it even if lax is without curse. Even if so slower meta again with just basically blisset replacing lax just doesn't cut it for me. I don't see the significant reason to keep it banned

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 What? Not like aero was to sweep when pokes are at full health anyway and you need spike support. Aero is pure late game sweeper,revenge killer,and lead that's about it. So I don't get why you keep saying it's more viable just because of snorlax when it shouldn't be challenging it even if lax is without curse.

If lax is w/o curse then aero only needs to worry about para. The reason aero is more viable now is bc when lax is around then you cant afford to use ur CB poke for a purpose other than breaking lax, which aero couldnt do. Sure you could run 2 CB pokes but thats generally a bad idea.

 

Another poke that has become more viable too is Ursaring just a fyi

 

 

 Even if so slower meta again with just basically blisset replacing lax just doesn't cut it for me. I don't see the significant reason to keep it banned

Im saying that the meta is slow to evolve no that its a slow meta. We are slow to obtain comps, especially something like starmie. So people are going to use the same stuff they had b4 until they get new comps. Therefor maybe a month was too short (this was an issue brought up from the beginning of the decision) Also its not just "Bliss takes the place of lax" I have listed quit a few pokes who are more viable w/o lax, and yes aero is one of them.

 

Also thinknice i wouldnt say WoW is any better of a choice on gengar than something like Dbond or even something like explosion. On certain teams sure it can be a huge help but it isnt a necessity like it use to be.

Edited by codylramey
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Seeing an increase of Blissey isn't such a bad thing, because bliss is not OP. I still think our semi 3G/4G metagame without lax offers more possibilities. It's true and a bit surprising that we don't see a lot more of Calm Minders like Espeon. But i really think it will come back, just need to breed good hidden powers, but players (like me) don't necessarily have the time or the ressources to create a completely different team.

 

I personally enjoyed this mounth without Lax, it allowed me to play new things (mainly on the special side) and not to be forced to play a Rhydon (which however could make big holes with lax everywhere).

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I enjoyed a no hax meta but that's the only thing I thought was different. And no matter how you put it blissey and snorlax are the only strong special walls in this. And I shouldn't have to build a core to there for limit my team building process on the offensive side of things. And the only way to do that is run porygon or blissey. And both have huge holes.

Edited by Excelimpulse
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I enjoyed a no hax meta but that's the only thing I thought was different. And no matter how you put it blissey and snorlax are the only strong special walls in this. And I shouldn't have to build a core to there for limit my team building process on the offensive side of things. And the only way to do that is run porygon or blissey. And both have huge holes.

Having to think about cores is a limit to team building? Putting thought into a team that works as a team is limiting? Worrying about synergy is limiting? Sorry you cannot just run 1 Special Wall and 1 Defensive Wall. Im sorry you feel obligated to run a wall instead of bulky offense. Im sorry you cannot adapt to a balanced meta. Edited by DrCraig
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Having to think about cores is a limit to team building? Putting thought into a team that works as a team is limiting? Worrying about synergy is limiting? Sorry you cannot just run 1 Special Wall and 1 Defensive Wall. Im sorry you feel obligated to run a wall instead of bulky offense. Im sorry you cannot adapt to a balanced meta.


Lol Because you guys complain that some pokes force you to run things but now I can't complain that I'm forced to run a core when I said that's what you could do with the dragons and even snorlax to stop them but now I'm forced to run a special core to stop special sweepers? That seems fair.

Bottom line the meta did not change significantly enough to warrant a full ban. Aero ludicolo and umbreon got higher usage and that's it. And the last two are set up bait making blissey really the only thing left.
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Lol Because you guys complain that some pokes force you to run things but now I can't complain that I'm forced to run a core when I said that's what you could do with the dragons and even snorlax to stop them but now I'm forced to run a special core to stop special sweepers? That seems fair.

You were talking about running a core to stop two pokes, a core that can be broken if those two pokes ran a diff set (most things that wall a CB mence cant wall a DDAnce mence). We are talking about running a core to stop a whole subset of pokemon.

 

Bottom line the meta did not change significantly enough to warrant a full ban. Aero ludicolo and umbreon got higher usage and that's it. And the last two are set up bait making blissey really the only thing left.

I had already explained that this could be due to a slow to adapt meta. Also you are forgetting the drop in gengar usage and the rise in Aero. Finally its not just about usage, especially if the lack of change in usage can be attributed to game mechanics Viability is a thing to be taken into consideration. And a lot of things become more viable w/o lax.

 

This is the last time i will respond to you bc you force ppl to tell you the same thing over and over again.

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You were talking about running a core to stop two pokes, a core that can be broken if those two pokes ran a diff set (most things that wall a CB mence cant wall a DDAnce mence). We are talking about running a core to stop a whole subset of pokemon.

I had already explained that this could be due to a slow to adapt meta. Also you are forgetting the drop in gengar usage and the rise in Aero. Finally its not just about usage, especially if the lack of change in usage can be attributed to game mechanics Viability is a thing to be taken into consideration. And a lot of things become more viable w/o lax.

This is the last time i will respond to you bc you force ppl to tell you the same thing over and over again.


no kidding things get used more now because of snorkax is missibgm you are FORCED to. That doesn't = ban the usage in 3-4 pokes cghabge and that's enough to warrant a ban? And if your saying it COULD be due to a slow addaptibg meta,it's been a month I'm pretty sure everyone has an idea of what to use and what to stay away from now. What it is now is what it's going to be. I don't see it changing anymore then it is. I don't see a huge difference in the Meta and it's slower just like we all can agree on. But the fact that it already doesn't meet ban criteria and it didn't change it much, what us the point?
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no kidding things get used more now because of snorkax is missibgm you are FORCED to. That doesn't = ban the usage in 3-4 pokes cghabge and that's enough to warrant a ban? And if your saying it COULD be due to a slow addaptibg meta,it's been a month I'm pretty sure everyone has an idea of what to use and what to stay away from now. What it is now is what it's going to be. I don't see it changing anymore then it is. I don't see a huge difference in the Meta and it's slower just like we all can agree on. But the fact that it already doesn't meet ban criteria and it didn't change it much, what us the point?

Ugh, well atleast this is different. Its not just things that you are forced to use in order to replace lax that you are able to use now, its things that because of lax were less viable or even a hinderance to the team. Aero is a great check to most spcl atkers but he is by NO means a lax replacement. Ursaring became more viable wall breaker bc he only really has to worry about coming in on a blissey siesmic toss and not a bslam from lax. Starmei, espy, and kingdra are no lax replacement but are more viable now. You are nor FORCED to run any of these things on ur team, but they all become better options bc of the lack of snorlax.

 

You are misunderstanding my point. How many pokemon have you built since the update? The answer is prolly rather small considering the amount of time you have had. Just because ppl know what the meta is doesnt mean they have had the time to get the pokemon together to suit the new meta. There are many pokemon i persoanlly would like to have and use in this new meata but havent been able to build bc of the time that you have to put into doing so. Im sure i am not alone in this (plz comment if you feel the same about this) So what happens? People just use the same shit. Thats why at the very least we need more time imo. 1 month isnt enough time when it takes 3 days average to come up with 1 comp.

 

You dont see a huge difference in the meta bc you dont actually comp. If you acually thought about team building, and the possible cores (both offensive and defensive) you can run w/o lax in the picture then you would understand there is a much bigger difference in the meta than those usage stats let on. And you even undermine the usage stats, thinking that ludi and blissey are the only ones whos stats have changed. Aero had like the second most difference in his useage since the lax ban. Gengar slightly dropped. And blissey (being the one who you think is just the other lax) is used less than lax was.

 

Finally, i, and again im sure im not alone on this, still question whether lax doesnt fit the criteria for uber or not. After one curse he can set up on nearly everyting thats not fighing type (who commonly have trouble coming in on bslams) superpower CB, or SD poke who can take a +1 Bslam with ease.

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Ugh, well atleast this is different. Its not just things that you are forced to use in order to replace lax that you are able to use now, its things that because of lax were less viable or even a hinderance to the team. Aero is a great check to most spcl atkers but he is by NO means a lax replacement. Ursaring became more viable wall breaker bc he only really has to worry about coming in on a blissey siesmic toss and not a bslam from lax. Starmei, espy, and kingdra are no lax replacement but are more viable now. You are nor FORCED to run any of these things on ur team, but they all become better options bc of the lack of snorlax.

You are misunderstanding my point. How many pokemon have you built since the update? The answer is prolly rather small considering the amount of time you have had. Just because ppl know what the meta is doesnt mean they have had the time to get the pokemon together to suit the new meta. There are many pokemon i persoanlly would like to have and use in this new meata but havent been able to build bc of the time that you have to put into doing so. Im sure i am not alone in this (plz comment if you feel the same about this) So what happens? People just use the same shit. Thats why at the very least we need more time imo. 1 month isnt enough time when it takes 3 days average to come up with 1 comp.

You dont see a huge difference in the meta bc you dont actually comp. If you acually thought about team building, and the possible cores (both offensive and defensive) you can run w/o lax in the picture then you would understand there is a much bigger difference in the meta than those usage stats let on. And you even undermine the usage stats, thinking that ludi and blissey are the only ones whos stats have changed. Aero had like the second most difference in his useage since the lax ban. Gengar slightly dropped. And blissey (being the one who you think is just the other lax) is used less than lax was.

Finally, i, and again im sure im not alone on this, still question whether lax doesnt fit the criteria for uber or not. After one curse he can set up on nearly everyting thats not fighing type (who commonly have trouble coming in on bslams) superpower CB, or SD poke who can take a +1 Bslam with ease.

Not reading the wall of text. But I stopped after the how many pokes I built. I built 7 fyi in the amount of time I had with work I thought was pretty good. So don't tell me you can't build enough to adapt because I can say I havnt had the time I wanted and still mad a lot.

So you might be saying I'm missing your point but your missing mine. 3-4 different to say oh it changed Is not enough imo. I don't care if it does come back but I think it should because of the ban criteria and it did not change it enough. Yes some pokes are more usuable but does that warrant bans now because they are outclassed and should be in a bl tier?

And fyi I barely ran snorlax. And if I did it wasn't a curse lax. I used it as a pivot poke for an offensive team. Edited by Excelimpulse
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