[Discussion] Snorlax (OU)

[dastan]

maybe people already reply on that but why not just fordid the " curse " move on lax?  and everyone could be happy ,  people who cry about snorlax as an op poke could be glad and people like me who thinks snorlax dont need curse to be effective as well

 

coz the fact some people just dont want to forbid a specific move to a specific poke seems to be  a weird answer ,

Edited May 8, 2015 by dastan

[OldKeith]

To you guys describing how snorlax is OP:

 

 

There's no doubt that snorlax is a strong pokemon, it always has been. Normally you can make a case on that in tiering threads. However, I think this discussion is different at this point: no matter what you say about its base stats, hp, etc. here, people are still going to be on the fence on whether it is uber or not.

 

I'd like to have snorlax back, but if I was going to "throw a pitch" on why it would be bad to let it back in, I would personally do something like form an argument with this chart below to base my opinions on why one metagame is more healthy than the other.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Senile's guide for terminology:

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/47727-tiering-and-you/?hl=tier

 

um... also read what was said if you have not already in the previous couple pages. I think everything has been covered and you are late to the party. Regardless, good luck.

 

That chart is definitely inaccurate. No Weezing post Lax ban? Really?

 

As for Lax, it definitely CAN be used as an utility wall, although the tank variant is more preferred. But we shouldn't diss people who call it a wall, because they are not entirely wrong. Snorlax is an interesting combination of a Wall and a Tank, it is definitely somewhere in between. Because Gen 4 doesn't have the pokemon or the items to deal with Lax efficiently, it's definitely banworthy. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by OldKeith

[SpartacusGD]

Psychic:   252+ SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 153-181 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 14.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ice:          252+ SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Snorlax: 72-85 (15.6 - 18.4%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

Water:     252+ SpA Omastar Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 144-171 (31.2 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fire:        252+ SpA Houndoom Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Snorlax: 69-82 (14.9 - 17.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

Grass:     252+ SpA Exeggutor Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 121-144 (26.2 - 31.2%) -- 15.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Electric:   252+ SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 148-175 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery   

Ghost:     Gengar Shadow Ball vs. Snorlax: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

Dark:      252+ SpA Cacturne Hidden Power Dark vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 106-126 (22.9 - 27.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery  

Steel:     252+ SpA Magneton Hidden Power Steel vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 109-130 (23.6 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fight:     252+ SpA Blaziken Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 206-246 (44.6 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fly:        252+ SpA Charizard Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 102-121 (22.1 - 26.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Normal:  252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 114-135 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Bug:      252+ SpA Venomoth Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 97-115 (21 - 24.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Poison:  252+ SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 150-177 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 2.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Snorlax is a special wall, this is not debatable. No one can 2 ohko him with a special attack.

 

just LOL. are you saying snorlax is always at full hp? its not like it has softboiled or recover like blissey to make it so easy to keep it at full hp, after it takes a sludge bomb of gengar for example, gengar will switch out then how about next time it happens? and if it gets poisoned? no offense mate but this is a noob's post

[Poulpatine]

just LOL. are you saying snorlax is always at full hp? its not like it has softboiled or recover like blissey to make it so easy to keep it at full hp, after it takes a sludge bomb of gengar for example, gengar will switch out then how about next time it happens? and if it gets poisoned? no offense mate but this is a noob's post

the same thing can be pointed in every post who use calcs on something who lacks a reliable move of healing...

[DrCraig]

just LOL. are you saying snorlax is always at full hp? its not like it has softboiled or recover like blissey to make it so easy to keep it at full hp, after it takes a sludge bomb of gengar for example, gengar will switch out then how about next time it happens? and if it gets poisoned? no offense mate but this is a noob's post

Who posts calc of pokemon at 1/2 HP? The point is to see if it kills or sets up before u kill it. Why don't we just assume everything is paralysed?

maybe people already reply on that but why not just fordid the " curse " move on lax?  and everyone could be happy ,  people who cry about snorlax as an op poke could be glad and people like me who thinks snorlax dont need curse to be effective as well
 
coz the fact some people just dont want to forbid a specific move to a specific poke seems to be  a weird answer ,

A lot of people want curse itself to be banned but it has been emphasized that there will be no complex bans, for the most part.

[SpartacusGD]

Who posts calc of pokemon at 1/2 HP? The point is to see if it kills or sets up before u kill it. Why don't we just assume everything is paralysed?

A lot of people want curse itself to be banned but it has been emphasized that there will be no complex bans, for the most part.

 

i did explain right? that 3hko isnt enough basis for a wall, well pory2 is 3hkoe'd by alakazam as well and it has recover. does it mean it is the next to ban? point is snorlax sleeps and when it does there goes your loophole its not OP, not for sure, it aint immortal. maybe yea you can say full hp calcs is cool with sweaper hits but as sp def wall, 3hko or even 4hko or 5hko without a reliable source of regeneration just isnt gonna cut it, i know snorlax can take them hits but not as well as blissey so stop saying snorlax is a blissey that hits hard, they have pros and cons

[Vaeldras]

maybe people already reply on that but why not just fordid the " curse " move on lax?  and everyone could be happy ,  people who cry about snorlax as an op poke could be glad and people like me who thinks snorlax dont need curse to be effective as well

 

coz the fact some people just dont want to forbid a specific move to a specific poke seems to be  a weird answer ,

 

We could ban rest, how about that? No self healing would make curselax a lot weaker.

 

(See what i did?)

[DrCraig]

i did explain right? that 3hko isnt enough basis for a wall, well pory2 is 3hkoe'd by alakazam as well and it has recover. does it mean it is the next to ban? point is snorlax sleeps and when it does there goes your loophole its not OP, not for sure, it aint undying. maybe yea you can say full hp calcs is cool with sweaper hits but as sp def wall, 3hko or even 4hko or 5hko without a reliable source of regeneration just isnt gonna cut it, i know snorlax can take them hits but not as well as blissey so stop saying snorlax is a blissey that hits hard, they have pros and cons

erm but like dur Snorlax wasn't banned for defensive characteristics so it really doesn't matter wether it is bulky enough get 5hkod. It was suspected for a negative effect on the health of the meta, not because it sponges attacks for eternity.

[fredrichnietze]

I think stall is popular because people don't try to run anything different. People don't really take the step to run an offensive team, when they can just run walls like everybody else.

hyper offensive wins thou

 

Plz teach me.

I'm serious.

 

Managed to build a team with 6 sweepers, but it's not gonna work twice in a row.

lots of explosion and at least 2 fast sweepers with at least 2 wall breakers and a set up sweeper or 2 is nice also. use pokemon that can switch in vs each others weakness's once and dont switch too often. start out with boom users to take out any walls then have the rest of your team exploit the wholes the boom users made.

 

I saw bliss versus bliss, bro versus bro and even curselax versus curselax before lax's ban, as codylmarey said, it's not necessary cause of your play style. And I still don't see how lax will change anything to it.

lax is a set up sweeper. it punish's you for letting it switch in and will set up and sweep your team if it does not have a solid answer to it. most of these answers are wall breakers not walls themselves with a few exceptions.

[bl0nde]

That chart is definitely inaccurate. No Weezing post Lax ban? Really?

Thank you for spotting my mistake. I did them again and was extra careful.

Source One

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Source Two

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

New Usage Rate Comparison

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

I went to 34 instead of 31 this time. The number is .392 which is less than half a percent change. Interpret it how you want.

Edited May 8, 2015 by bl0nde

[gbwead]

just LOL. are you saying snorlax is always at full hp? its not like it has softboiled or recover like blissey to make it so easy to keep it at full hp, after it takes a sludge bomb of gengar for example, gengar will switch out then how about next time it happens? and if it gets poisoned? no offense mate but this is a noob's postS

No offense taken. I was simply showing that snorlax is a special wall, thats it and he forces out any special attacker. Saying that it is not a wall is wrong.

 

Ofc blissey is a better special wall im not denying that...

[fredrichnietze]

in blondes defense one mistake is less then staff made making the list in the first place and the data is valuable for this discussion 

[spoiler]

im not white knighting i promise

[/spoiler]

[Poulpatine]

 

 

lax is a set up sweeper. it punish's you for letting it switch in and will set up and sweep your team if it does not have a solid answer to it. most of these answers are wall breakers not walls themselves with a few exceptions.

 

 

Indeed. But we already have things that punish's you for letting it switch, especially on bliss (ursa, machamp, probably others, and for those 2, a wall is not really a solid answer), and those bliss vs bliss or ludi vs ludi still happen.

[gbwead]

i did explain right? that 3hko isnt enough basis for a wall, well pory2 is 3hkoe'd by alakazam as well and it has recover. does it mean it is the next to ban? point is snorlax sleeps and when it does there goes your loophole its not OP, not for sure, it aint undying. maybe yea you can say full hp calcs is cool with sweaper hits but as sp def wall, 3hko or even 4hko or 5hko without a reliable source of regeneration just isnt gonna cut it, i know snorlax can take them hits but not as well as blissey so stop saying snorlax is a blissey that hits hard, they have pros and cons

He isn't ban just because he is bulky but because he is also a threat. The combination of his bulkiness + his offensive traits makes him ban worthy.
Porygon is not as bulky and not as much threathening either. Comparing them makes no sense.

[Shaniqualela]

He isn't ban just because he is bulky but because he is also a threat. The combination of his bulkiness + his offensive traits makes him ban worthy.
Porygon is not as bulky and not as much threathening either. Comparing them makes no sense.

no, hes being suspected to see if hes unhealthy for the meta, which means you have to prepare for him TOO MUCH. and he stops the metagame from evolving.

[gbwead]

erm but like dur Snorlax wasn't banned for defensive characteristics so it really doesn't matter wether it is bulky enough get 5hkod. It was suspected for a negative effect on the health of the meta, not because it sponges attacks for perpetuality.

Well it wasn't ban either only because of his offensive characteristics. It does matter that it is bulky.

[XPLOZ]

We can notice that those calcs are done without any EVs in HP/Sp def and without a +Sp def nature.

Lots of Curselax (or others) still resist better than that.

[SpartacusGD]

He isn't ban just because he is bulky but because he is also a threat. The combination of his bulkiness + his offensive traits makes him ban worthy.
Porygon is not as bulky and not as much threathening either. Comparing them makes no sense.

 

yeah thats snorlax traits indeed but is it too much? like seriously? people cant find a way to stop it? just a weez+machamp stops a curselax coldbloodedly. the fact that stopping snorlax requires some skill in prediction makes it valuable in the meta like "is it gonna bslam here? is it gonna curse here?"  cause there is gengar who can enter on bslam then burn it, one way or another it can be stopped and thats what matters

 

and actually just a rhydon breaks it, or after a burn you force it to sleep then metal sound or fake tears kill it. like do i really have to tell all the ways to kill a curselax? there are many ways people just dont wanna deal with it at all so they want it out.

Edited May 8, 2015 by SpartacusGD

[gbwead]

no, hes being suspected to see if hes unhealthy for the meta, which means you have to prepare for him TOO MUCH. and he stops the metagame from evolving.

What you said doesn't undermined what i said before.

A pokemon that is that much bulky and that much offensive requires indeed TOO MUCH preparation and stops the metagame from evolving.

[DrCraig]

I see a lot of people missing the whole point.

[XPLOZ]

The ou meta obv needs a snorlax, we need a tier that is where the smarter player wins not the more patient player.

 

I really can't get your point of vue here.

Blissey is a lot more a bait than Snorlax. So it seems that when you play bliss, you have to play intelligently and to do judicious switches not to get raped by some physically sweepers. With snorlax, we were used to a spam of body slam. So yeah, I don't get how it is for smarter players. But this is only my opinion.

[Vaeldras]

hyper offensive wins thou

 

lots of explosion and at least 2 fast sweepers with at least 2 wall breakers and a set up sweeper or 2 is nice also. use pokemon that can switch in vs each others weakness's once and dont switch too often. start out with boom users to take out any walls then have the rest of your team exploit the wholes the boom users made.

 

lax is a set up sweeper. it punish's you for letting it switch in and will set up and sweep your team if it does not have a solid answer to it. most of these answers are wall breakers not walls themselves with a few exceptions.

 

that's more than 6 how 2 count lel

 

Seriously, we'll talk about in game, i'll show you my superior offensive team in vermilion ch 1 ofc.

Enough off topic doe, we might get killed. Or worse. Expelled Banned

Edited May 8, 2015 by Vaeldras

[Senile]

I see a lot of people missing the whole point.

Craig gets it.

 

Snorlax isn't OP. This has been established. The question is, "Is snorlax unhealthy?", and most of the posts recently either aren't addressing this at all or are just brushing it off with "yuh huh" and no actual justification.

[Vaeldras]

Craig gets it.

 

Snorlax isn't OP. This has been established. The question is, "Is snorlax unhealthy?", and most of the posts recently either aren't addressing this at all or are just brushing it off with "yuh huh" and no actual justification.

 

I have this feeling it's not the first time they ask you this but...how do we define unhealthy? usage and?

what is this weird feeling of deja vu?

Anyway, i'm pretty sure a lot of people consider snorlax op, when was this estabilished? 

[Gunthug]

I have this feeling it's not the first time they ask you this but...how do we define unhealthy? usage and?
what is this weird feeling of deja vu?
Anyway, i'm pretty sure a lot of people consider snorlax op, when was this estabilished?

There's a great thinknice post somewhere outlining the qualities of an unhealthy suspect test, but cba to find it on my phone. Also, the lax thread was up for a loooong time and the cojncil took no action, which means it wasn't deemed banworthy under the Op characteristics. The test was purely on the topic of meta game health, and if you ask me I don't think there's a noticeable difference (positive difference) without it around.

Might be time to bring it back