[Discussion] Snorlax (OU)

[Arimanius]

I agree with Poulpatine, blissey although is a really nice wall against sp attackers you can beat it in so many ways, she wont curse you like snorlax does forcing u to have moves in a weezing like haze or roar just because of it.

Also even when she use thunder wave or toxic is something u can use for advantage in a pokemon with guts like machamp, ursaring, heracross, swellow, etc but snorlax paralyzes u and hits hard as hell too because of that fucking stab

So for me there's no way u can compare them both. I don't even use blissey that much because is too easy to beat IMO

EDIT: a lot of people answer before me damn xD

Edited May 8, 2015 by Arimanius

[dastan]

you guys are so boring , you all prefer a slow boring meta who duels take 45min, pp stall war,

 

Gudulberthe,  spartacus never talked about curselax btw, just mentioned the come back of snorlax, i personaly dont play snorlax with curse and i can apreciate its effect, i still dont understand how you guys prefer seiing a bliss vs bliss or ludi vs ludi ,

 

lol arimanius ofc bliss is a good wall, its a uguu and everyone knows it , it just fuck most spe atk sweeper and people are wondering why no one try to play offensive team.

Edited May 8, 2015 by dastan

[codylramey]

I spectate a lot of tournies. I dont see where stall as a main playstyle is all that previlant. If ur unfortunate enouh to end up with bliss v bliss then thats gonna make it seem like you were running a stall team even if you ran a balanced team or offensive team with bliss.

[Vaeldras]

I think stall is popular because people don't try to run anything different. People don't really take the step to run an offensive team, when they can just run walls like everybody else.

 

Plz teach me.

I'm serious.

 

Managed to build a team with 6 sweepers, but it's not gonna work twice in a row.

[OldKeith]

I think stall is popular because people don't try to run anything different. People don't really take the step to run an offensive team, when they can just run walls like everybody else.

 

No, it's popular because it is the only strategy that works. All the sweepers we have are frail, and are stopped cold by a defensive team. When your only damage modifying item is choice band, you are prone to having a stall-based meta...

[Poulpatine]

you guys are so boring , you all prefer a slow boring meta who duels take 45min, pp stall war,

 

Gudulberthe,  spartacus never talked about curselax btw, just mentioned the come back of snorlax, i personaly dont play snorlax with curse and i can apreciate its effect, i still dont understand how you guys prefer seiing a bliss vs bliss or ludi vs ludi ,

 

lol arimanius ofc bliss is a good wall, its a uguu and everyone knows it , it just fuck most spe atk sweeper and people are wondering why no one try to play offensive team.

I saw bliss versus bliss, bro versus bro and even curselax versus curselax before lax's ban, as codylmarey said, it's not necessary cause of your play style. And I still don't see how lax will change anything to it.

[SpartacusGD]

Well it is proven that with pokemmos limited resources the stall based style is more effective especially because we banned pretty much every poke that shits on them, and you guys say stuff about meta being more complex when wverytime there is talk about blissey you guys just keep saying dugtrio, dies that mean we are forced to run dug now just so we can sweap wuth sp sweapers? Cm sweapers and fake tears / seagger jolt all of them are more viable with lax around than the almost sure fact there will be blissey. My point here is that people just wants lax out so you need not worry about 1 less strong pokemon and that allows people to be able to build more complex stall based team and it sucks

[SpartacusGD]

No, it's popular because it is the only strategy that works. All the sweepers we have are frail, and are stopped cold by a defensive team. When your only damage modifying item is choice band, you are prone to having a stall-based meta...

As keith said stall is more effective and not having lax around encourages that style even more

[Poulpatine]

well, I'm not convinced that it is proven that stall is more effective. It is probably proven that we, pokemmo players, are better with this style, probably cause we are more familiar with this way to play before the split update . It may also be a superior way to play in a ladder climbing for example, but in a single elimination tournament, I doubt.

And I won't qualify things like agiligross or gyarados as "frail sweepers"...

Edited May 8, 2015 by Poulpatine

[SpartacusGD]

I saw bliss versus bliss, bro versus bro and even curselax versus curselax before lax's ban, as codylmarey said, it's not necessary cause of your play style. And I still don't see how lax will change anything to it.

Stall play has always been there its a playstyle we cant complain about it and with just bliss as legit sp def wall it makes it even worse, cut the crap about ludi, venusaur, gardevoir, etc as other sp def walls we all know they cant stop a cm boosting sweaper. Lets wager 1v1 cm espeon vs max sp def ludi, venusaur. Il bet my acct on espeon

As for lax = bliss arguement, lets say its like this, lax cant switch with ease but not many poke cant switch on on it with ease, while bliss switches in and recovers like half the damage with lefties but your belived guts pokes can switch with ease, its simply the bulkier wall and the harder hitting wall and you people want the bulkier to be there like 100% of the time.

[YagamiNoir]

No, it's popular because it is the only strategy that works. All the sweepers we have are frail, and are stopped cold by a defensive team. When your only damage modifying item is choice band, you are prone to having a stall-based meta...

Either the OU Viability list is established insignificantly or this statement is wrong in it's own right. 

[Vaeldras]

well, I'm not convinced that it is proven that stall is more effective. It is probably proven that we, pokemmo players, are better with its style, probably cause we are more familiar with this way to play before the split update . It may also be a superior way to play in a ladder climbing for example, but in a single elimination tournament, I doubt.

And I won't qualify things like agiligross or gyarados as "frail sweepers"...

 

Try and build an offensive team, you're gonna notice how hard it is to play with one.

When i had snorlax i could afford to have only dusclops in my team while still having a safe switch in to pretty much everything (and it wasn't curselax, it was an adamant lax with leftovers and self d).

Haven't tried with blissey since you just can't find a good one on the market anymore, but i'm pretty sure snorlax kept the meta more offensive than now.

[OldKeith]

well, I'm not convinced that it is proven that stall is more effective. It is probably proven that we, pokemmo players, are better with its style, probably cause we are more familiar with this way to play before the split update . It may also be a superior way to play in a ladder climbing for example, but in a single elimination tournament, I doubt.

And I won't qualify things like agiligross or gyarados as "frail sweepers"...

 

Really? Agility Metagross can even be stalled out by Blissey if it doesn't get that boost. It has no way to recover and a very bad move pool.

 

Gyarados too, falls to any electric attack. No wonder those two are the first to die vs a stall team.

 

Ursaring has some potential, but a misprediction and it dies. Also revenged by Dugtrio.

 

 

Either the OU Viability list is established insignificantly or this statement is wrong in it's own right. 

 

It's a work in progress. And I do play OU so I know what I am saying.

Edited May 8, 2015 by OldKeith

[XPLOZ]

This is a bit strange because in tourneys you say that gyara is extremely strong and that it's a shame he isn't banned yet, but here you are saying that it's a frail sweeper...

[Poulpatine]

Really? Agility Metagross can even be stalled out by Blissey if it doesn't get that boost. It has no way to recover and a very bad move pool.

 

Gyarados too, falls to any electric attack. No wonder those two are the first to die vs a stall team.

 

Ursaring has some potential, but a misprediction and it dies. Also revenged by Dugtrio.

 

 

 

 

It's a work in progress. And I do play OU so I know what I am saying.

it doesn't matter if they fall -_- in an offensive team, it doestn matter if you lost your five first pokemons, you just have to manage to weak walls enough for your last. Gyara can take weezing t bolt for example, which can be great if you want to crush it on weezing with 2 +1 waterfall, weakened it enough for an heracross sweep for instance.

Only a few thing can ohko metagross, the boost is not that rare, and he can severely open holes on an ennemy team before dying, and it can explode on a key wall to open the way for something. And for Ursa, I guess the guy who is afraid about mispredict is the guy who face it, not really the user. Even if it is revenge by dug, he might did his job before : destroy or at least weakened enough a wall. 

[Vaeldras]

This is a bit strange because in tourneys you say that gyara is extremely strong and that it's a shame he isn't banned yet, but here you are saying that it's a frail sweeper...

 

Maybe he wanted to say that gyara is broken when paired with a defensive team, not sure.

[OldKeith]

This is a bit strange because in tourneys you say that gyara is extremely strong and that it's a shame he isn't banned yet, but here you are saying that it's a frail sweeper...

 

Gyarados sweeps through offensive teams with ease, which is what makes it broken. But a heavy stall team can weaken it easily. So different scenarios really. All the sweepers we have lack recovery, or the ability to get guaranteed safe switches.

[XPLOZ]

Gyarados sweeps through offensive teams with ease, which is what makes it broken. But a heavy stall team can weaken it easily. So different scenarios really. All the sweepers we have lack recovery, or the ability to get guaranteed safe switches.

 

Well, this is a bit the same for others DDancers like Kingdra then.

 

Anyway this is the snorlax's thread

Edited May 8, 2015 by XPLOZ

[ThinkNice]

As I see it the meta didn't change that much without Snorlax. It also doesn't seem healthier, it doesn't promote different playstyles and the evolution of the metagame without Snorlax seems plausible because nothing is really broken without Snorlax. I can post a lot more but I rather keep it short. The metagame didn't change enough to warrant the ban on Snorlax, so we'll probably be seeing it back in OU.

[gbwead]

Since Snorlax is one the best special wall in the game, why are people complaining that without him the meta game is now more stall oriented?

Is Sorlax also a wall breaker? I think, when you combine the offensive traits of Snorlax with his crazy bulkiness, it is obvious why he is banned and should remain banned.

[XPLOZ]

Since Snorlax is one the best special wall in the game, why are people complaining that without him the meta game is now more stall oriented?

Is Sorlax also a wall breaker? I think, when you combine the offensive traits of Snorlax with his crazy bulkiness, it is obvious why he is banned and should remain banned.

 

This is quite relevant.

[Vorred]

Since Snorlax is one the best special wall in the game, why are people complaining that without him the meta game is now more stall oriented?
Is Sorlax also a wall breaker? I think, when you combine the offensive traits of Snorlax with his crazy bulkiness, it is obvious why he is banned and should remain banned.

  

People still calling Snorlax a wall ok

[XPLOZ]

Well,

160 Base stat HPs

110 Base stat Sp def.

It can come on every special sweeper (especially in this meta 3G/4G).

So yeah, i think we can call it a wall.

 

You are just saying that it has also a huge offensive presence, which is true.

 

Don't you see any problem here ?

[gbwead]

Psychic:   252+ SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 153-181 (33.1 - 39.2%) -- 14.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ice:          252+ SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Snorlax: 72-85 (15.6 - 18.4%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

Water:     252+ SpA Omastar Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 144-171 (31.2 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fire:        252+ SpA Houndoom Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Snorlax: 69-82 (14.9 - 17.7%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

Grass:     252+ SpA Exeggutor Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 121-144 (26.2 - 31.2%) -- 15.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery 

Electric:   252+ SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 148-175 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery   

Ghost:     Gengar Shadow Ball vs. Snorlax: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time 

Dark:      252+ SpA Cacturne Hidden Power Dark vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 106-126 (22.9 - 27.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery  

Steel:     252+ SpA Magneton Hidden Power Steel vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 109-130 (23.6 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fight:     252+ SpA Blaziken Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 206-246 (44.6 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fly:        252+ SpA Charizard Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 102-121 (22.1 - 26.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Normal:  252+ SpA Porygon2 Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 114-135 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Bug:      252+ SpA Venomoth Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 97-115 (21 - 24.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Poison:  252+ SpA Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 150-177 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 2.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Snorlax is a special wall, this is not debatable. No one can 2 ohko him with a special attack.

Edited May 8, 2015 by lamerb

[bl0nde]

To you guys describing how snorlax is OP:

 

Snorlax does not easily satisfy an Uber criterion, a lot of energy was spent debating its effects on the metagame and how it affects the more subjective "quality" of the metagame.

 

There's no doubt that snorlax is a strong pokemon, it always has been. Normally you can make a case on that in tiering threads. However, I think this discussion is different at this point: no matter what you say about its base stats, hp, etc. here, people are still going to be on the fence on whether it is uber or not.

 

I'd like to have snorlax back, but if I was going to "throw a pitch" on why it would be bad to let it back in, I would personally do something like form an argument with this chart below to base my opinions on why one metagame is more healthy than the other.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Senile's guide for terminology:

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/47727-tiering-and-you/?hl=tier

 

um... also read what was said if you have not already in the previous couple pages. I think everything has been covered and you are late to the party. Regardless, good luck.