[Discussion] Snorlax (OU)

[Vaeldras]

7% is pretty big (i think it seems big anyway). Also look at the rise in aerodacyle use. And starmie use. Centralization isnt all about forcing ur opponent to run special pokemon but it also can make others less viable. The drop on the top 5 pokes means that on some teams those pokes are being replaced with something else. Thats good imo.

 

Tbh, aerodactyl became really good since cb came out but for some reason people started noticing it only now.

Not sure how that is related to snorlax doe, while i can easily see why kazam and starmie are getting stronger now: they're always usually walled with blissey, which is unable to both trap them and setup on the switch.

Having a more varied meta is good, so i guess i just don't like pink.

I like both this and the pre ban meta.

[ShucklePwnz]

I think one of the reasons Aerodactyl is being more popular is because its a great check to CM Espeon, which can beat Blissey with the right moveset, like Sub+CM will beat Sp atk+Toxic and Morning Sun+CM will beat Sp atk+Seismic Toss so the chance of being steamrolled by CM Espeon is pretty scary since theres not a lot of physical attackers who outspeeds it.

Another nice thing going for Aerodactyl is to remove Dugtrio with Pursuit so it wont revenge kill anything else.

 

Overall I like the current meta better than the Snorlax meta since theres much more diversity and viable play styles.

[Vaeldras]

I think one of the reasons Aerodactyl is being more popular is because its a great check to CM Espeon, which can beat Blissey with the right moveset, like Sub+CM will beat Sp atk+Toxic and Morning Sun+CM will beat Sp atk+Seismic Toss so the chance of being steamrolled by CM Espeon is pretty scary since theres not a lot of physical attackers who outspeeds it.

Another nice thing going for Aerodactyl is to remove Dugtrio with Pursuit so it wont revenge kill anything else.

 

Overall I like the current meta better than the Snorlax meta since theres much more diversity and viable play styles.

 

It adds a little bit of variety (ofc blissey is always there) but matches got longer for me and i'll have to get a blissey sooner or later.

Snorlax allowed me to wall every possible sp hitter, and was also a damn good wallbreaker itself.

Now i had to replace it with ludicolo and possibly espeon, and my sp coverage is nowhere near as good as it used to be. Even worse, i have less wallbreakers.

One could solve this by simply using blissey.

I could go as far as saying that having blissey will give you a significant advantage if your opponent doesn't have it, just like it used to be with snorlax.

Obviously blissey can't really be compared to snorlax on the offensive side, which was the reason why snorlax got banned.

 

There is more diversity. Not that much since our tier is currently composed of 30 pokemon more or less, so in the end you're still gonna see, Metagross, arcanine, weezing, gengar and blissey everywhere, but at least we don't have to worry about curselax anymore.

The new meta is imo a little bit better overall, but not being able to run truly offensive teams anymore is kinda sad.

[codylramey]

Are you guys forgetting that aerodyctle was walled by curselax with only one curse up? The only way aero could win was hax.

 

​Choice Band Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. +1 Snorlax: 134-158 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- 32.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

What is the point of a CB poke when it cant even break the most common spcl wall in the tier and stop it from sweeping. So plz lets stop pretending that aeros HUGE rise in usage was due to anything else but this.

[Excelimpulse]

Are you guys forgetting that aerodyctle was walled by curselax with only one curse up? The only way aero could win was hax.

​Choice Band Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. +1 Snorlax: 134-158 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- 32.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

What is the point of a CB poke when it cant even break the most common spcl wall in the tier and stop it from sweeping. So plz lets stop pretending that aeros HUGE rise in usage was due to anything else but this.

I agree that aero usage went up with snorlax out but I don't know if it's set on just that. I think it's a mixture of the meta eventually changing and people seeing that pursuit aero can really hurt. So I think it's a little bit of both.

[OldKeith]

Snorlax allowed me to wall every possible sp hitter, and was also a damn good wallbreaker itself.

 

That's what made it  broken.

[Vaeldras]

Are you guys forgetting that aerodyctle was walled by curselax with only one curse up? The only way aero could win was hax.

 

​Choice Band Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. +1 Snorlax: 134-158 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- 32.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

What is the point of a CB poke when it cant even break the most common spcl wall in the tier and stop it from sweeping. So plz lets stop pretending that aeros HUGE rise in usage was due to anything else but this.

 

Ahem, aerodactyl wasn't really the best example, since even arcanine and blissey can potentially wall it

 

252 Atk Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 204-241 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO

[OrangeManiac]

I really don't know how much healthier did the meta get special attacker wise when Snorlax got the boot. Even though Snorlax counters at full HP any special attacker in the tier, at lower HP plenty of special attacker can finish off Snorlax giving it some pressure meanwhile Blissey however walls any special attacker when it's not under 15% HP. Therefor having Snorlax as a special wall actually makes special attacking more viable than having Blissey as the special wall. However, from the post-Dnite usage I guess it's safe to say people used them both as well in the same team so can't entirely say the situation is now worse than better for special attackers now that Snorlax is gone since the Blissey walled a lot before together with the Lax. But by the high usage of Blissey and a major increase of Ludicolo says that people did use Snorlax primarily for special walling while they didn't want a Pokemon offensively as weak as Blissey.

However, I think CurseLax is still the most broken factor of Snorlax. It was second to unstoppable without Haze or Whirlwind and stuff and to me would be one reason why Heracross was so used. (My guess is the Sub + SD + Reversal + Megahorn set). Also Snorlax could just Whirlwind this set out so "countering" CurseLax was pretty much impossible. Not even stuff like Skarmory worked as a phazer when it was the last Pokemon of the team.

Edited May 4, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[ThinkNice]

People still calling Snorlax a wall ok

[ShucklePwnz]

Ahem, aerodactyl wasn't really the best example, since even arcanine and blissey can potentially wall it

 

252 Atk Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 204-241 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO

Why did you calc without choice band?

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 156-184 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

 

Don't give me that hurl durl I shouldnt be forced to run CB on a poke with average attack stat to beat a common special wall.

[codylramey]

Even though Snorlax counters at full HP any special attacker in the tier, at lower HP plenty of special attacker can finish off Snorlax giving it some pressure meanwhile Blissey however walls any special attacker when it's not under 15% HP. Therefor having Snorlax as a special wall actually makes special attacking more viable than having Blissey as the special wall. However, from the post-Dnite usage I guess it's safe to say people used them both as well in the same team so can't entirely say the situation is now worse than better for special attackers now that Snorlax is gone since the Blissey walled a lot before together with the Lax..

You gotta remember too, its SOO much more punishing for your team to allow a snorlax to come in on a spcl atker than a blissey. Thats why gengar was popular bc he could WoW and lessen that punishment. Sure hes still popular now but how mant WoW gars do you actually see compared to b4? Also you dont need to chack blissey as much as you do lax.

[Vaeldras]

Why did you calc without choice band?

252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 156-184 (43 - 50.8%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO

 

Don't give me that hurl durl I shouldnt be forced to run CB on a poke with average attack stat to beat a common special wall.

 

Because it was early in the morning and i didn't get any sleep,

Still, it's not easy to take down blissey with aerodactyl, since you're forced to rely on rockslide while risking of getting thunder wave'd.

The only reason why i use aerodactyl is it's speed, which makes it pretty good at taking down other ph hitters.

Too bad it has troubles switching on pretty much anything, so you either predict or use it as a revenge killer.

Using it against a blissey/arcanine/weezing core won't get you anywhere without an actual wallbreaker, unless you want to have a really long battle,

Anyway, aero is kinda forced to hold a CB, it lacks a decent stab to deal enough damage without it, not only against blissey.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Vaeldras

[Excelimpulse]

You gotta remember too, its SOO much more punishing for your team to allow a snorlax to come in on a spcl atker than a blissey. Thats why gengar was popular bc he could WoW and lessen that punishment. Sure hes still popular now but how mant WoW gars do you actually see compared to b4? Also you dont need to chack blissey as much as you do lax.

Not really I'd rather take a hit from lax and risk getting para haxed then knowing I'm getting paralized. like above. Running offensive teams now is kinda hard and really limits that style of play.

But on the plus side I really like using pory2 but we all know it needs a lot of support.

[bl0nde]

 

• how it affects the more subjective "quality" of the metagame.
• Some of us don't know what is the best option.

 

 

 

• Is it "too good not to use"? 
• Does Snorlax limit teambuilding options?
• Do you think that teams have become more or less diverse with Snorlax removed?
• Do you feel like you have more or less freedom when designing a team?
• Does it limit playstyle options?
• Without Snorlax do you feel like you can confidently use stall, offensive or balanced teams? Is there one playstyle that is more dominant than others?

 

[spoiler]

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[spoiler]

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Edited May 4, 2015 by bl0nde

[codylramey]

Not really I'd rather take a hit from lax and risk getting para haxed then knowing I'm getting paralized. like above. Running offensive teams now is kinda hard and really limits that style of play.
But on the plus side I really like using pory2 but we all know it needs a lot of support.

Guts boosted machamp can take that twave pretty well. Especially he no longer needs to worry about getting 3hkoed by lax. Also gound types.

[Excelimpulse]

Guts boosted machamp can take that twave pretty well. Especially he no longer needs to worry about getting 3hkoed by lax. Also gound types.

Still para hax can destroy machamp, still ice beam will hurt most ground types hard if predicted wrong. Blissey and snorlax are both not hard to take down imo but both can become annoying and overwhelming if played correctly. Both have same usage when snorlax is removed and blissey is almost to good not to use. Like I said before I love pory 2 but It's still not either of them, maybe If conversion would work correctly then you could argue pory 2 is on the same level.

[bl0nde]

Snorlax was seen on teams 5.74% more of the time than blissey. However, among the top 31 most used pokemon (including blissey and snorlax themselves), these two tables of usage stats say the pre snorlax ban meta only centralized or lowered variety by .718% (less than 1% of the time) compared to the post snorlax ban meta.

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Edited May 4, 2015 by bl0nde

[codylramey]

Still para hax can destroy machamp, still ice beam will hurt most ground types hard if predicted wrong. Blissey and snorlax are both not hard to take down imo but both can become annoying and overwhelming if played f. Both have same usage when snorlax is removed and blissey is almost to good not to use. Like I said before I love pory 2 but It's still not either of them, maybe If conversion would work correctly then you could argue pory 2 is on the same level.

As a hit n run poke (which is how machamp iss used) parahax has little chance of destroying machamp considering how easy it is for him to switch in on bliss or porygon. Yes you have to predict to get a ground types but bliss has to predict to hit those ground types. Where something like lax has an easy time spamming bslam, Yes we have steels and ghosts but laxcan come in over and over again, the odds that one of them arent gonnaget caught by a fire punch are low.

[ThinkNice]

As a hit n run poke (which is how machamp iss used) parahax has little chance of destroying machamp considering how easy it is for him to switch in on bliss or porygon. Yes you have to predict to get a ground types but bliss has to predict to hit those ground types. Where something like lax has an easy time spamming bslam, Yes we have steels and ghosts but laxcan come in over and over again, the odds that one of them arent gonnaget caught by a fire punch are low.

We don't need to repeat this argument.

[bl0nde]

What some of us perceived as variety(including myself) seems like it was mostly just adjusted higher/lower usage rates of pokemon to me. In the end it seems that there are good and bad things about banning or not banning snorlax for OU play. For example, if snorlax is on teams, you have the opportunity to be more offensive compared to blissey. However, snorlax is also centralizing to some degree (bad?). IMO the best approach is to put it all in a list and see if the pros weigh more than the cons(if you have not already).

 

and again IMO I'd use questions like these (some have already answered them) during my considerations:

Robofiend, on 01 May 2015 - 02:28 AM, said:

• Is it "too good not to use"? 
• Does Snorlax limit teambuilding options?
• Do you think that teams have become more or less diverse with Snorlax removed?
• Do you feel like you have more or less freedom when designing a team?
• Does it limit playstyle options?
• Without Snorlax do you feel like you can confidently use stall, offensive or balanced teams? Is there one playstyle that is more dominant than others?

Edited May 4, 2015 by bl0nde

[SpartacusGD]

I dont understand why people dont see it, the meta sucked so bad because of snorlax ban, it became more stall based now , all those people who join or atleast attend official tournaments you guys should know we see too much stall matches, duels exceeding time clause, lots of match ups that never ends unless 1 gives up or runs out of pp. idk if for other people its the better meta but in my opinion its just stupid. Snorlax hut harder but its not immortal it needa to rest which gives 2-3 free turns for oponent it has downsides aswell, blissey on the otherhand doesnt hit that hard butvwe all know its freakin immortal against sp sweapers like jolteon, starmie and we all see cm espeon / slowbro vs cm bliss too much which never ends until someone gets a crit or runs out of pp, us that what you call competitive? And lastly for the part peope were mentioning from the start the cripling ability of snorlax to paralyze with bslam, well they are same in that regard bliss can twave or toxic aswell plus the fact that having snorlax in our meta adds depth to team building which makes our meta better, compared to now people as long as they have the resolve to win no matter how long it will take then its very easy to team build with good wall stall cores. We already have burntzebra, are we gonna wait til all players who wants to win adapts his playstyle? The ou meta obv needs a snorlax, we need a tier that is where the smarter player wins not the more patient player.

[Poulpatine]

I dont understand why people dont see it, the meta sucked so bad because of snorlax ban, it became more stall based now , all those people who join or atleast attend official tournaments you guys should know we see too much stall matches, duels exceeding time clause, lots of match ups that never ends unless 1 gives up or runs out of pp. idk if for other people its the better meta but in my opinion its just stupid. Snorlax hut harder but its not undying it needa to rest which gives 2-3 free turns for oponent it has downsides aswell, blissey on the otherhand doesnt hit that hard butvwe all know its freakin undying against sp sweapers like jolteon, starmie and we all see cm espeon / slowbro vs cm bliss too much which never ends until someone gets a crit or runs out of pp, us that what you call competitive? And lastly for the part peope were mentioning from the start the cripling ability of snorlax to paralyze with bslam, well they are same in that regard bliss can twave or toxic aswell plus the fact that having snorlax in our meta adds depth to team building which makes our meta better, compared to now people as long as they have the resolve to win no matter how long it will take then its very easy to team build with good wall stall cores. We already have burntzebra, are we gonna wait til all players who wants to win adapts his playstyle? The ou meta obv needs a snorlax, we need a tier that is where the smarter player wins not the more patient player.

I disagree.

 

Maybe duels are more stall based, but first, you are not enforced to play like that to succeed in a tournament, and secondly, I'm not sure that lax has anything to do with this stall based tendancy. 

 

Bliss was and is used, with or without lax. And with our without lax, when you use bliss, you have to expect to face things that can rekt your "stall based meta", like ursaring, breloom, or others things that can signifantly hurt your walls and open a way for a DDancer or smthing. 

 

On the SpeA side, you can still use this pesky dugtrio to destroy bliss, severely damages ludi, or even use things like explosion exeggcutor, and proceed to sweep with starmie, rain dance ludi/kingdra, CM zam etc...so you CAN chose to play offensively, stall is still a popular play style, but not the only way to win, and I believe you don't need lax for that.

 

On the stall side, well, bliss is not the only way to handle those scary CMinders. for bro you can trick it, random toxic it, encore it, spore/sub seed it with breloom, RK it with megamiss CB heracross, for espeon/zam, spDef invested arcanine can do the job quite well, or you can revenge it with dug or CB aero, or even set up a DD kingdra in RK (if zam or espeon don't have more than a CM), and there are probably others ways to deal with it but I don't have them in mind atm. Or you can also dont' be a set up bait for them, for example by playing less stall based teams.

 

And at least, I don't really see how using lax will change the meta at a point where "the smarter players wins not the more patient". When lax is here, you still have to be patient enough until things that can handle your very smart curselax are out...

[XPLOZ]

The Champion of Europe talked well. :ph34r:

[Poulpatine]

The Champion of Europe talked well. :ph34r:

Dat champion *_*

[DrCraig]

I think stall is popular because people don't try to run anything different. People don't really take the step to run an offensive team, when they can just run walls like everybody else.