[Discussion] Snorlax (OU)

[GAMBlT]

not really. All these pokemon which are supposedly "more viable" were already viable, they're just better now, just like how some pokemon got worse without Snorlax. A few pokemon rising in viability isn't really relevant, because that's obviously going to happen after you remove any top tier threat, healthy or not. The only pokemon which went from "unviable" to "viable" (not top tier, more like the bottom-middle of viable) as far as I can tell is Espeon, but even then, it wasn't a case of "oh, Snorlax made Espeon unviable", it's just that Espeon is a pokemon that's a good special option against Blissey, which is now far more popular. I, of course, shouldn't have to explain why it'd be ridiculous to ban a pokemon to make 1 other pokemon kinda viable, lmao.

 

So what Im gathering between you and ThinkNice is,

 

[spoiler]WELCOME BACK SNORLAX[/spoiler]

[codylramey]

They may have been "viable" kinda but they didnt do much. Any spcl attacker, like espy, was snorlax bait. Any physical attacker that couldnt consistantly come in on lax, ursaring, ddance kingdra, or cant kill a cursing lax, aerodyctal, wasnt good options to use on a team. If you did run one of those you had to run something to tak lax with it. What is evem the point of that? So no it wasnt just espy, there is more than espy. You guys just refuse to see it (aero and ursa saw a good increase in usage didnt they?). And if anything did lose viability its bc they were only chosen over another thing that does their job better bc they had something about them that allowed them to take lax. The only reason i would consistantly choose sub gengar over howl arcanine or mixed blaze as my mixed attacker for most of my teams is bc gengar could take lax.

Edited May 11, 2015 by codylramey

[ThinkNice]

We aren't refusing to see them, the changes are just way to minimal.

[Senile]

They may have been "viable" kinda but they didnt do much. Any spcl attacker, like espy, was snorlax bait. Any physical attacker that couldnt consistantly come in on lax, ursaring, ddance kingdra, or cant kill a cursing lax, aerodyctal, wasnt good options to use on a team. If you did run one of those you had to run something to tak lax with it. What is evem the point of that? So no it wasnt just espy, there is more than espy. You guys just refuse to see it (aero and ursa saw a good increase in usage didnt they?). And if anything did lose viability its bc they were only chosen over another thing that does their job better bc they had something about them that allowed them to take lax. The only reason i would consistantly choose sub gengar over howl arcanine or mixed blaze as my mixed attacker for most of my teams is bc gengar could take lax.

Kingdra usage went down. Ursaring and Aerodactyl both had average usage before the ban, they were perfectly viable, unless something needs like 20%+ usage for you to consider it viable, lmao. They were perfectly good/viable options, they just weren't top tier all over the place. As for saying "if you rana one of those, you needed something to take lax with it"...no fucking shit. This is a game with 6 pokemon, lmao.

 

As for saying that things that lost viability because they had something that let them take lax better, no shit, obviously pokemon that have an advantage against lax will drop in viability. But what about Starmie? A pokemon you said was pretty much unplayable with Snorlax because of how Snorlax punished special attackers, and the ban forced a massive drop in it's viability. What's that about? Shouldn't it be more viable? No, because Snorlax wasn't the limiting factor for special attackers, generally.

 

Blaziken is still pretty much non-viable, or the bottom barrel of viable at best, while Gengar is still top usage and god tier. I think it's safe to say Snorlax isn't the only reason Gengar > Blaziken.

 

I'm not gonna acknowledge Howl Arcanine, lmao.

[Robofiend]

I don't really see the changes as "minimal," and I'll bring up some points besides set diversity, because that's obviously an impasse at this point.

 

1. Playstyle diversity - we're not only limited to balance now. I've seen Offensive and Stall teams used to effect against the too-common Bliss/Weezing core that dominates the meta. While Think claimed that stall becoming viable is a bad result of the test, it's one of the variables we were testing with the ban. If Snorlax did limit playstyle/teambuilding, it definitely would show by the presence of teams designed to sweep or wall more than balance can. That's exactly one of the things that I saw as a result of the ban, but not to a degree where Stall is extremely centralizing compared to balance or offense, in particular, struggling to take down offensive teams that use Blissey to negate Toxic stall or carry potent setup attackers like Kingdra. 

 

Usage stats effectively say nothing about this because there's no quanitfier for playstyle. However, admitting "Yeah, stall became viable" and then turning around to say "nothing changed" is talking out of both sides of your mouth in the truest sense.

 

2. "Specially defensive cores" were less common than some are making them to be - I saw a rise of Defensive cores that checked different types of Physical/Special attackers. For instance, Defensive Ludicolo is a fine check against Water spam that can Giga Drain Starmie and other water sweepers to death, 40spdef Swampert gets 3-4HKO'd by offensive Starmie while resisting most other common special attacks outside of HP Grass/Giga Drain, and bulky Metagross can take hits from Starmie, Gengar, or Jolteon in a pinch and retaliate with a knockout blow. While these pokemon are less common than Blissey, all of them provide significant advantages for a team, such as not being Phys attacker/Dugtrio bait or containing other physical threats when needed as well (especially when facing CB'ers).

 

Last point: I hate to say this as a person who's usually heavily in favor of statistical arguments, but this ban brought us into subjective-land, so obsessing over numbers doesn't really get you anywhere. Everyone who engineered this test ban admitted that we had to judge the subjective qualities (>not numerical) of the metagame in order to decide what to do about Snorlax. Usage stats weren't enough reason to ban it and they aren't a reason to unequivocally vote for it to coime back. If you think it's unhealthy that's a completely valid stance, but don't go masquerading about like this was some numerical test to begin with or that your characterization of the changes as (numerically) "minimal" isn't a subjective statement. I just as easily characterize 7% as a massive change in dynamics and all you'd be able to say is "NO, NO, UR  JUST WRONG M8," which just leads you back to the same problem: we're talking about subjective aspects of the game, some of which aren't evident in statistics, just as they weren't before the ban. 

[SpartacusGD]

Senile's point is very clear and that is what subjective reasoning supposed to be like, lax haters just focus on the very minimal change and by very minimal i mean the promotion of stall play. Kingdra? Aero? Ursa? Dont kid me i use em all just fine even when lax is around so it just doesnt concern lax.

[Robofiend]

Senile's point is very clear and that is what subjective reasoning supposed to be like, lax haters just focus on the very minimal change and by very minimal i mean the promotion of stall play. Kingdra? Aero? Ursa? Dont kid me i use em all just fine even when lax is around so it just doesnt concern lax.

 

>ignoring the fact that Ursaring/Kingdra destroy stall

[SpartacusGD]

>ignoring the fact that Ursaring/Kingdra destroy stall

Yeah then whats the conclusion? You'll need ursa and kingdra in every team or you'll get stall bored to death, did the meta became better cause of that? Its just so wrong

[Robofiend]

Yeah then whats the conclusion? You'll need ursa and kingdra in every team or you'll get stall bored to death, did the meta became better cause of that? Its just so wrong

 

I dunno, I usually don't have a problem with Stall tbh. Beating stall just takes good prediction, lots of PP and enough offense to threaten common combos. Given that a lot of stall teams can't usually find a place for Starmie, Gengar + Forretress is a good way of maintaining spikes and forcing switches, while other attackers like Sub DD Kingdra can take hits from Weezing/Blissey/etc. all day and set up enough DD's to start a pretty evil flinch sweep.

 

Also, Stall's a valid team archetype, it's only when it can't be broken that it become a major issue for a balanced meta. Given that Subtrio singlehandedly eliminates one of the most common walls in the game (while also checking other attackers) it's not like Blissey is some totally unbeatable wall that's ruining the meta.

[SpartacusGD]

But the problem with this meta you are trying to create is its making a dug / ursa, kingdra mandatory to break stall teams. Its not healthy at all. I dont see why you so positive about this crap all bliss meta. Sp def wall core is plain shit no 2 poke core has no hole especially knowing sp sweapers are very fast so basically makes blissey mandatory in a serious duel aswell. + ofc it doesnt end there you'll have to make def wall core aswell so you see this variety, freedom in team building youball are saying is basically crap. Makes too many mandatory pokes or ofc unless you are the most hardcore scouter in the world so always know what are the pokes you should bring every duel unfortunately not everyone is nerd enough and dont wanna be nerd enough to do that.

[Arimanius]

But the problem with this meta you are trying to create is its making a dug / ursa, kingdra mandatory to break stall teams.

 

Right now they're not mandatory even when you're playing against a staller team. but I would love too see with snorlax around if we wouldn't have mandatory Pokemon INCLUDING snorlax itself... please

[DrCraig]

But the problem with this meta you are trying to create is its making a dug / ursa, kingdra mandatory to break stall teams. Its not healthy at all. I dont see why you so positive about this crap all bliss meta. Sp def wall core is plain shit no 2 poke core has no hole especially knowing sp sweapers are very fast so basically makes blissey mandatory in a serious duel aswell. + ofc it doesnt end there you'll have to make def wall core aswell so you see this variety, freedom in team building youball are saying is basically crap. Makes too many mandatory pokes or ofc unless you are the most hardcore scouter in the world so always know what are the pokes you should bring every duel unfortunately not everyone is nerd enough and dont wanna be nerd enough to do that.

Where tf is this coming from? He was just making examples on how to potentially deal with a playstyle that he sees as more viable then before (but not overpowering).

ofc unless you are the most hardcore scouter in the world so always know what are the pokes you should bring every duel unfortunately not everyone is nerd enough and dont wanna be nerd enough to do that.

what Lol

[KaynineXL]

The one reason I dislike Snorlax is because all it takes is 1 slip up and you usually lose a couple of your pokes. You slip up in this meta against a sp wall, you don't get punished by losing half your team, it makes games much more exciting. Even though Bliss stalls, it's simply easier to remove than Snorlax imo.

Edited May 12, 2015 by KaynineXL

[Shaniqualela]

But the problem with this meta you are trying to create is its making a dug / ursa, kingdra mandatory to break stall teams. Its not healthy at all. I dont see why you so positive about this crap all bliss meta. Sp def wall core is plain shit no 2 poke core has no hole especially knowing sp sweapers are very fast so basically makes blissey mandatory in a serious duel aswell. + ofc it doesnt end there you'll have to make def wall core aswell so you see this variety, freedom in team building youball are saying is basically crap. Makes too many mandatory pokes or ofc unless you are the most hardcore scouter in the world so always know what are the pokes you should bring every duel unfortunately not everyone is nerd enough and dont wanna be nerd enough to do that.

Those are just examples of wallbreakers.
Theres a lot more Pokemon that can do that.
Machamp
Guts heracross
Cb/sd scizor (very good synergy with kingdra)
Subpunch gengar (yay now snorlax can't setup on it)
Azumarill (a little slow but it can work)
Swellow

Basically anything with over 100 attack with choice band or subpunch can work.

Stop complaining about walls if you don't use wallbreakers. You don't NEED a special wall, as long as you make a good team with resistances (I know, shocking)

A good example of a bulky offensive core:
Bulky dd gyarados + arcanine + subseed breloom
Cm slowbro + offensive venusaur + arcanine

These are just a couple off the top of my head, yeah they have a couple weaknesses but that's why it's a core and not a whole team.
If you think teambuilding is restricted you prob just suck at making teams and need to git gud

[ThinkNice]

A good example of a bulky offensive core:
Bulky dd gyarados + arcanine + subseed breloom + blissey
Cm slowbro + offensive venusaur + arcanine + blissey

These are just a couple off the top of my head, yeah they have a couple weaknesses but that's why it's a core and not a whole team.
If you think teambuilding is restricted you prob just suck at making teams and need to git gud

added a poke so you don't get destroyed by Starmie, oh wait nobody is running that anymore

[SpartacusGD]

Those are just examples of wallbreakers.
Theres a lot more Pokemon that can do that.
Machamp
Guts heracross
Cb/sd scizor (very good synergy with kingdra)
Subpunch gengar (yay now snorlax can't setup on it)
Azumarill (a little slow but it can work)
Swellow

Basically anything with over 100 attack with choice band or subpunch can work.

Stop complaining about walls if you don't use wallbreakers. You don't NEED a special wall, as long as you make a good team with resistances (I know, shocking)

A good example of a bulky offensive core:
Bulky dd gyarados + arcanine + subseed breloom
Cm slowbro + offensive venusaur + arcanine

These are just a couple off the top of my head, yeah they have a couple weaknesses but that's why it's a core and not a whole team.
If you think teambuilding is restricted you prob just suck at making teams and need to git gud

Yea how you gonna stop starmie, cm espeon? And what you gonna switch on a sludge bomb spamming gengar?

Inb4 you'll say you need metagross, rip freedom and variety in team building

[Tranzmaster]

Over the past month, Snorlax has been banned in order to gauge whether it's presence on the metagame is unhealthy enough to warrant being banned. After observing the metagame, what changed and what hasn't, and much discussion, we have come to the conclusion that Snorlax is not unhealthy enough to warrant banning. As a result, Snorlax is being placed back in OU.

 

The reasoning for this is simply that the metagame did not undergo significant enough changes to justify keeping him banned, much less to argue that he poses a significant detriment to the health of the metagame. While it is true that the metagame underwent changes, with some pokemon such as Aerodactyl, Ludicolo and of course Blissey becoming more viable, other pokemon such as Starmie and Heracross suffered. However, changes such as these are natural when removing any highly used top tier pokemon, and are not significant enough to incriminate Snorlax on their own.

 

Not only that, but a good amount of the changes arguably have less to do with the effect Snorlax had on the metagame, but more to do with the effect his "replacement" does, Blissey. For example, while it is true that the change in meta made Espeon viable, it's not viable because Snorlax was making it non-viable, it simply became viable due to being a special attacker which can comfortably take on Blissey, which swelled in popularity without Snorlax being around.

 

Beyond all of this, we see no reason to believe that extending the suspect test has any purpose; the data gathered so far feels sufficient to draw a conclusion. While some pokemon might shift a bit in usage, overall, there is little reason to believe that there will be any significant shifts in what pokemon are used, with little to not justification for potentially relevant changes. None of the original premises given for the potentially healthy affects of removing Snorlax were actually met. The specially defensive cores/alternative special walls which people proposed would become viable without Snorlax simply did not come to existence. Porygon2 hardly changed in usage, Umbreon went up 1%-2% but is still an absolute garbage, non-viable pokemon for OU standards, Dusclops/Gardevoir, which were both proposed as potential special walls, actually went slightly down in terms of usage. Lanturn went from about 3% usage to not being used at all. The special walls which did rise in usage significantly were Ludicolo and Blissey, essentially changing the metagame from the previous dynamic of Snorlax <- Blissey <- Other, mediocre pick to Blissey <- Ludicolo <- Other, mediocre pick. The originally theorized specially defensive core/wall diversity simply did not come to be. Beyond that, the original premise that special attackers would become more viable also did not come to fruition, due to how difficult it is for special attackers to wear down a Blissey when compared to a Snorlax. Even if people did use "special cores" as opposed to Blissey, all that would mean is that special attackers would be forced to either break through an unstoppable wall or several smaller walls, making it hard for them to compete.

 

Overall, the change found within the Snorlax-less meta is not significant enough to show Snorlax was demonstrably unhealthy, with most shifts simply being expectant of a top tier pokemon being removed and having less to do with his removal and more to do with the affects of his replacement on pokemon choices. The original changes people expected when the test was first proposed did not come to fruition at all, and it was decided that there is no need for a time extension on the suspect.

 

And so to conclude, once again, Snorlax is being placed back in OU.

[KaynineXL]

 

 Snorlax is being placed back in OU.

 

fuck no

Edited May 13, 2015 by KaynineXL

[SpartacusGD]

So glad majority of ou tier council knows what ou is. Good call

[KingBowser]

:)

[ThinkNice]

Time for Dugtrio suspect test

[OldKeith]

A disappointing decision, but not the first. Oh well, time to win all my duels using Curselax once again.

[codylramey]

A disappointing decision, but not the first. Oh well, time to win all my duels using Curselax once again.

You know i really should be happy. Curselax allows me to beat players who are way better than me. Nik, Zebra, i believe i beat kanzo with it too. Hes a great equalizer.

[Arimanius]

Inb4 80% Snorlax usage

[Shaniqualela]

Yea how you gonna stop starmie, cm espeon? And what you gonna switch on a sludge bomb spamming gengar?
Inb4 you'll say you need metagross, rip freedom and variety in team building

At +1 gyarados kills all three of those with crunch?

And yay snorlax :)