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[Discussion] Snorlax (OU)


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I'd like to point out that starmie is setup bait for resto chesto kingdra, it is only 3hkod by psychic (which a lot don't run) and can dragon dance up to 5 times on it if it tries to stay in. (Bar crits and spdef drops)
There's many ways to punish spatkers besides bliss and lax, even if you don't "wall" them.

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Could one of the tier council members give some concise input with like bullet marks on the issues the council as a whole is debating on between themselves in regards to snorlax at this point. I say it because I think the thread needs direction at this point.

 

We've established at this point that we know snorlax is centralizing and we know it's powerful. That was in the OP of the thread and it's been said by senile and randoms and everyone else. Okay, it's established. Now, moving on. We have the usage stats. The usage stats again say there was a 1% difference if we are only talking about "variety" of pokemons seen. We can also see how the shift in centralization towards blissey as opposed to snorlax impacted the usage rates. So where should we go from here? What indicators are the tier council debating on/what are the councils thoughts?

Edited by bl0nde
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Well, the meta without lax is just boring, imo. on the other hand the incremented ludicolo usage is just a second answer to deal with satkers after trio kill ur bliss. and snorlax wouldn't be a problem if his main counters like rhydon or metagross or any hard hitter were not trapped by trio, so instead of keep banned snorlax. why we don't focus on the main problem.

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Could one of the tier council members give some concise input with like bullet marks on the issues the council as a whole is debating on between themselves in regards to snorlax at this point. I say it because I think the thread needs direction at this point.

 

We've established at this point that we know snorlax is centralizing and we know it's powerful. That was in the OP of the thread and it's been said by senile and randoms and everyone else. Okay, it's established. Now, moving on. We have the usage stats. The usage stats again say there was a 1% difference if we are only talking about "variety" of pokemons seen. We can also see how the shift in centralization towards blissey as opposed to snorlax impacted the usage rates. So where should we go from here? What indicators are the tier council debating on/what are the councils thoughts?

 

Not speaking for everyone on the OU council here, you'll have to wait for Zebra/Senile posts to hear their opinions.

 

However, here's what we're looking at for banning it or bringing it back:

 

- Does Snorlax limit teambuilding to an unreasonable degree? Does it require players to use overly specific counters or checks or make lots of pokemon unviable?

- Does Snorlax unduely limit playstyle options? Is stall/balance/offense too strong/weak without it?

- Is Snorlax "too good not to use"?

 

My thoughts: the meta without Snorlax isn't perfect (gl finding that anywhere) but it definitely is more diverse. I've seen way more successful stall teams, offensive teams and weird strategies running around than I ever saw when Snorlax was around. While Blissey is now heavily used, other pokemon like Starmie, Aerodactyl, Gyarados, Arcanine, Dugtrio, Ludicolo and Vaporeon have had a chance to shine without being overpowered. The rise of pokemon like CB Dugtrio, Venusaur, DD Kingdra, CM Zam, Magneton and Pursuit Aero are all reasons to say "Yes, teams are a lot more diverse than before". While the numbers haven't changed too much, a lot of the sets have become more balanced toward countering a range or threats instead of just being support against Snorlax.

 

One of the biggest effects of the Snorlax ban, which was noted in this thread, is on Gengar. Before, many players felt forced to run Sub/Disable or Destiny Bond Gengar in order to be successful against Snorlax, to the point where some players wanted to see it banned. Now it's hardly a consideration, even though its still heavily used. While the usage stats don't show a huge change in rankings for a lot of pokemon, you also have to remember that we live in the "slowly evolving metagame" universe, where it takes players a long time to realize that certain sets can be effective and a long time to go out and build those sets. 

 

If I could use a Snorlax now I definitely would, and I suspect everyone else feels the same way - it firmly stops most special sweepers, walls and support pokes and is good on just about any team. In fact, it's so good that even carrying physical attackers isn't enough to stop it once it gets set up - if you're facing a +1 Snorlax you almost need a Superpower user on your team. While Blissey, the new most common Sp. sponge also incentivizes Superpower, its limited attack options can make it bait for ground types (if it decides to run Aroma/Twave/Stoss), Metagross (if it runs Toxic/BoltBeam) or Heracross (if it runs status or lacks Flamethrower).

 

 

Well, the meta without lax is just boring, imo. on the other hand the incremented ludicolo usage is just a second answer to deal with satkers after trio kill ur bliss. and snorlax wouldn't be a problem if his main counters like rhydon or metagross or any hard hitter were not trapped by trio, so instead of keep banned snorlax. why we don't focus on the main problem.

 

The meta being "boring" or not isn't really a consideration. I found the Snorlax meta really boring, but that's not why we test banned it. If you want to talk about banning Dugtrio, you should post in that thread. Also your logic is beyond me - Dugtrio wasn't very common before Snorlax was banned and usually didn't do that well, so why would we ban it when Snorlax is on almost every team and is really hard to beat without Rhydon.

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Not speaking for everyone on the OU council here, you'll have to wait for Zebra/Senile posts to hear their opinions.

 

However, here's what we're looking at for banning it or bringing it back:

 

- Does Snorlax limit teambuilding to an unreasonable degree? Does it require players to use overly specific counters or checks or make lots of pokemon unviable?

- Does Snorlax unduely limit playstyle options? Is stall/balance/offense too strong/weak without it?

- Is Snorlax "too good not to use"?

 

My thoughts: the meta without Snorlax isn't perfect (gl finding that anywhere) but it definitely is more diverse. I've seen way more successful stall teams, offensive teams and weird strategies running around than I ever saw when Snorlax was around. While Blissey is now heavily used, other pokemon like Starmie, Aerodactyl, Gyarados, Arcanine, Dugtrio, Ludicolo and Vaporeon have had a chance to shine without being overpowered. The rise of pokemon like CB Dugtrio, Venusaur, DD Kingdra, CM Zam, Magneton and Pursuit Aero are all reasons to say "Yes, teams are a lot more diverse than before". While the numbers haven't changed too much, a lot of the sets have become more balanced toward countering a range or threats instead of just being support against Snorlax.

 

One of the biggest effects of the Snorlax ban, which was noted in this thread, is on Gengar. Before, many players felt forced to run Sub/Disable or Destiny Bond Gengar in order to be successful against Snorlax, to the point where some players wanted to see it banned. Now it's hardly a consideration, even though its still heavily used. While the usage stats don't show a huge change in rankings for a lot of pokemon, you also have to remember that we live in the "slowly evolving metagame" universe, where it takes players a long time to realize that certain sets can be effective and a long time to go out and build those sets. 

 

If I could use a Snorlax now I definitely would, and I suspect everyone else feels the same way - it firmly stops most special sweepers, walls and support pokes and is good on just about any team. In fact, it's so good that even carrying physical attackers isn't enough to stop it once it gets set up - if you're facing a +1 Snorlax you almost need a Superpower user on your team. While Blissey, the new most common Sp. sponge also incentivizes Superpower, its limited attack options can make it bait for ground types (if it decides to run Aroma/Twave/Stoss), Metagross (if it runs Toxic/BoltBeam) or Heracross (if it runs status or lacks Flamethrower).

 

 

 

The meta being "boring" or not isn't really a consideration. I found the Snorlax meta really boring, but that's not why we test banned it. If you want to talk about banning Dugtrio, you should post in that thread. Also your logic is beyond me - Dugtrio wasn't very common before Snorlax was banned and usually didn't do that well, so why would we ban it when Snorlax is on almost every team and is really hard to beat without Rhydon.

 

So following your great logic we are not allowed to talk about any pokemon other than the thread title, so, please explain me why snorlax is a threat, ofcourse you can't point any other pokemons to explain your points, (u don't have too).

 

Btw i think the main purposse of games it's entertaining or im wrong?, also if snorlax is on every team why not run rhydon on every team too?, makes sense at my eyes. well i might be wrong, so i expect to see feedback from smarter people ;)

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So following your great logic we are not allowed to talk about any pokemon other than the thread title, so, please explain me why snorlax is a threat, ofcourse you can't point any other pokemons to explain your points, (u don't have too).

Btw i think the main purposse of games it's entertaining or im wrong?, also if snorlax is on every team why not run rhydon on every team too?, makes sense at my eyes. well i might be wrong, so i expect to see feedback from smarter people ;)


Actually the part where hes insirectly saying snorlax is unstopable without rhydon is just so wrong, there are so many ways to deal with it. Even magneton can beat a curselax after you force it to sleep. This is ou its only natural to have pokemons like snorlax.
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So following your great logic we are not allowed to talk about any pokemon other than the thread title, so, please explain me why snorlax is a threat, ofcourse you can't point any other pokemons to explain your points, (u don't have too).

 

Btw i think the main purposse of games it's entertaining or im wrong?, also if snorlax is on every team why not run rhydon on every team too?, makes sense at my eyes. well i might be wrong, so i expect to see feedback from smarter people ;)

 

Lol, you're proving my point for me!

 

Lets just let Tyranitar back in then, right? That way we can have Tyranitar and Hitmontop on every team too!

 

In case you're not following - it's just a bad idea to say, "Well, pokemon B is really hard to stop but pokemon A counters pokemon B. So lets keep pokemon B around so every team has pokemon A and pokemon B on it". That's the whole argument against keeping overcentralizing things in game - if you have to run a specific pokemon in order to win the variety in the metagame goes wayyy down.

 

Also, you're allowed to talk about other pokemon (obviously) but if you're going to derail the thread by dropping arguments about banning Dugtrio then I'm going to shut you down cuz that's off topic brah.

 

EDIT: Yes, the main point of games is entertainment, I just found more entertainment in this one when we didn't have OU Snorlax anymore. The main point of competitive games, however, is to be competitive, not to be "fun". The Dragonite/Tyranitar metas were kind of "fun" but they're not highly competitive. Hence, we have tiering to balance fun and competitiveness.

Edited by Robofiend
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Lol, you're proving my point for me!

Lets just let Tyranitar back in then, right? That way we can have Tyranitar and Hitmontop on every team too!

In case you're not following - it's just a bad idea to say, "Well, pokemon B is really hard to stop but pokemon A counters pokemon B. So lets keep pokemon B around so every team has pokemon A and pokemon B on it". That's the whole argument against keeping overcentralizing things in game - if you have to run a specific pokemon in order to win the variety in the metagame goes wayyy down.

Also, you're allowed to talk about other pokemon (obviously) but if you're going to derail the thread by dropping arguments about banning Dugtrio then I'm going to shut you down cuz that's off topic brah.

EDIT: Yes, the main point of games is entertainment, I just found more entertainment in this one when we didn't have OU Snorlax anymore. The main point of competitive games, however, is to be competitive, not to be "fun". The Dragonite/Tyranitar metas were kind of "fun" but they're not highly competitive. Hence, we have tiering to balance fun and competitiveness.


And i pointed out there are many ways to deal with snorlax unlike ttar, blonde posted usage stats and take a look at where rhydon is. Lol ttar is very far from snorlax
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Lol, you're proving my point for me!

 

Lets just let Tyranitar back in then, right? That way we can have Tyranitar and Hitmontop on every team too!

 

In case you're not following - it's just a bad idea to say, "Well, pokemon B is really hard to stop but pokemon A counters pokemon B. So lets keep pokemon B around so every team has pokemon A and pokemon B on it". That's the whole argument against keeping overcentralizing things in game - if you have to run a specific pokemon in order to win the variety in the metagame goes wayyy down.

 

Also, you're allowed to talk about other pokemon (obviously) but if you're going to derail the thread by dropping arguments about banning Dugtrio then I'm going to shut you down cuz that's off topic brah.

 

EDIT: Yes, the main point of games is entertainment, I just found more entertainment in this one when we didn't have OU Snorlax anymore. The main point of competitive games, however, is to be competitive, not to be "fun". The Dragonite/Tyranitar metas were kind of "fun" but they're not highly competitive. Hence, we have tiering to balance fun and competitiveness.

 

proving what, what are you talking about, rhydon is not even compared to ttar, yea top is a good counter for ttar, but apart from that what?, rhydon counters lax and it's good, you are comparing two different galaxies mate.

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Actually the part where hes insirectly saying snorlax is unstopable without rhydon is just so wrong, there are so many ways to deal with it. Even magneton can beat a curselax after you force it to sleep. This is ou its only natural to have pokemons like snorlax.

 

Yep bc +1 firepunch only tickles magneton right? If you are going to suggest a counter plz at least suggest one that can ACTUALLY counter lax
 

[spoiler]

+1 0 Atk Snorlax Fire Punch vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 184-218 (75.4 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

Thats not even ada nor does it have atk invest (smogon set).

 

[/spoiler]

 


I run self d lax to counter lax and i never failed.
Anything wrong?

Is this a joke? if so plz disregard this and learn to be funny. If not, cmon brah. Not only is the argument "I use lax to counter lax gg no re" not a valid one bc you can not consider a pokemon a counter to itself using selfdestruct to do so is also not a valid option bc ur counter dies in the process.

Edited by codylramey
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Yep bc +1 firepunch only tickles magneton right? If you are going to suggest a counter plz at least suggest one that can ACTUALLY counter lax

[spoiler]
+1 0 Atk Snorlax Fire Punch vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Magneton: 184-218 (75.4 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Thats not even ada nor does it have atk invest (smogon set).

[/spoiler]


Is this a joke? if so plz disregard this and learn to be funny. If not, cmon brah. Not only is the argument "I use lax to counter lax gg no re" not a valid one bc you can not consider a pokemon a counter to itself using selfdestruct to do so is also not a valid option bc ur counter dies in the process.


You missed the force it to sleep part and btw i put the word "even" to emphasize its 1 of the last things to deal with it, there are many more, you just gotta use your head actual ou players knows what to do, some of us just dont want to deal with lax but it can definitely be dealt with
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And even post ban cancerous posts still plague this thread.

 

From my personal speculation, Snorlax is a likely a hindrance to teambuilding. It has it's flaws, but it's better than what it used to be. Addressing the somewhat cliche "Blissey versus Snorlax" argument, it's not exactly a bad thing that Blissey is all over the place, given that Blissey isn't that centralizing by itself, it just lost the main competition that that admittedly superior to it while it still stayed, nor did it require a CB Choice Bander or whatever in oblivion to actually handle it appropriately. While it has a thicker movepool, Blissey's roles are also less diverse, being primarily focused on cleric/status support and being fairly mediocre in offense unless it had Calm Mind, whereas Snorlax had both offensive and defensive dominance while still being able to fulfill the primary role, but you can top that off with stuff like phazing/Pursuit, too. While Snorlax was "breakable" by Special Attackers to some degree, that didn't exactly stop it from centralizing the meta like it did.  The impact it gave was ultimately more influential than the flaws one could actually exploit over it.

 

The meta still evolves a bit too slowly due to more out-of-competitive reasons, and I personally there isn't that high of a degree of justified consensus to accurately determine the line between what is better. The meta however has only proven itself to have increased diversity with the enhanced viability of multiple Pokemon with Snorlax's departure, as far as some people think the pressure Snorlax provided was a deserving one. There isn't a line between how significant it is, but, well, I personally think it's better than what we used to have. Even if there's Blissey all over the place, people can't find excuses saying it's centralizing. Snorlax on the other hand probably has that excessive unhealthy dominance.

 

Well, the meta without lax is just boring, imo. on the other hand the incremented ludicolo usage is just a second answer to deal with satkers after trio kill ur bliss. and snorlax wouldn't be a problem if his main counters like rhydon or metagross or any hard hitter were not trapped by trio, so instead of keep banned snorlax. why we don't focus on the main problem.

It's ironic by itself on how Blissey can be revenge killed by Trio but not anything else. Convenient twist of nature for your argument. While Blissey is a brick wall to Special Attackers, it's still vulnerable to a lot of physical attackers and the like, and said frailty, speculatively, can also reason why people run Ludi as an extra wall. Ludi was also a good backup check for physical attacking Kingdra and to some degree Gyarados that don't run a specific move, which could backfire on any Blissey thinking it's Special and Blissey can't fare that well against Gyarados. Imo Ludi has more to offer than just being "a special wall", even if it's most common set belies on that set.

Edited by YagamiNoir
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Yey for double posts. So, in the original Snorlax thread we established that Snorlax does not fit any of the Uber criteria well enough for it to be banned. It can't reliable sweep on its own and it can't wall as much of the metagame as it would like. There is no point in discussing this further as it has been discussed and the only reason we have this suspect test is because the council agreed that it did not fit the uber criteria of an offense, defense or support Pokémon, or any combination of those.

 

We have this suspect test because we want to know if Snorlax was influencing the metagame negatively. This has yet to be proven. The metagame is not more enjoyable and the diversity it offers, is not really diversity. In fact stall got even more effective with Snorlax gone. Seeing as offense had quite some common answers to Snorlax like Machamp, Rhydon, Gengar and Metagross. Stall however had a hard time dealing with Snorlax outside of Skarmory, as Weezing doesn't fit stall teams too much.

 

Oh, but now I don't get punished for running special attackers? Is what we are hearing oh so often now. This is  the biggest delusion you can give yourself. We are even more punished for running special attackers in this metagame. And special attackers require the support of Dugtrio even more than in the Snorlax metagame. Why is this? Well Snorlax was often favored above Blissey and of course it was way more superior than Ludicolo or Umbreon. But, Snorlax was breakable by Starmie or SS Kingdra or even Jolteon. Now that Snorlax is gone people immediately opt for Blissey, and Blissey is impossible to break for special attackers, unless you run some gimmicky mono-attacking set.

 

Even worse, if people don't opt for Blissey they opt for a double special defensive core meaning that special attackers do not have to break through one, no they have to break through two walls in order to become effective. In the Snorlax era you often only had to break through Snorlax, which really wasn't that hard because it's so quickly worn down by repeated switches.

 

So what variety do we have? The usage stats suggests that we have minimal variety as there are some Pokémon that became more viable, but there are enough Pokémon that became less viable. Oh boy we can use a special defensive core now! News flash, you could do that in the Snorlax era as well. Defensive Ludi was the only Ludi used in the Snorlax era and we are seeing that it's the only effective Ludi set in this meta too. It was just way inferior to Snorlax, and special cores are still way inferior to Blissey.

 

The only difference in this metagame is that Blissey is more passive than Snorlax but this metagame is actually even more punishing for special attackers. Also a lot of teams carry Metagross, Weezing is still a very common Pokémon and Gengar and Forretress are still on the top side of the usage stats. These are all Pokémon that naturally deal with the most common Snorlax sets, although Gengar needs his Disable set (which again makes his versatility less problematic).

 

What do we get out of this? Nothing, I repeat fucking nothing has changed. Or there hasn't been enough change to warrant the ban on Snorlax. Oh yeah, what was this test for again? Oh right if Snorlax was unhealthy for the metagame. Result: this metagame is still shit (dw I watched tournies and PSL matches). What does this mean? We don't have a reason to ban Snorlax. Or we could pull a UU Council and ban it anyway because it's supposedly 'bad for the meta'. Done.

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Yey for double posts. So, in the original Snorlax thread we established that Snorlax does not fit any of the Uber criteria well enough for it to be banned. It can't reliable sweep on its own and it can't wall as much of the metagame as it would like. There is no point in discussing this further as it has been discussed and the only reason we have this suspect test is because the council agreed that it did not fit the uber criteria of an offense, defense or support Pokémon, or any combination of those.

We have this suspect test because we want to know if Snorlax was influencing the metagame negatively. This has yet to be proven. The metagame is not more enjoyable and the diversity it offers, is not really diversity. In fact stall got even more effective with Snorlax gone. Seeing as offense had quite some common answers to Snorlax like Machamp, Rhydon, Gengar and Metagross. Stall however had a hard time dealing with Snorlax outside of Skarmory, as Weezing doesn't fit stall teams too much.

Oh, but now I don't get punished for running special attackers? Is what we are hearing oh so often now. This is the biggest delusion you can give yourself. We are even more punished for running special attackers in this metagame. And special attackers require the support of Dugtrio even more than in the Snorlax metagame. Why is this? Well Snorlax was often favored above Blissey and of course it was way more superior than Ludicolo or Umbreon. But, Snorlax was breakable by Starmie or SS Kingdra or even Jolteon. Now that Snorlax is gone people immediately opt for Blissey, and Blissey is impossible to break for special attackers, unless you run some gimmicky mono-attacking set.

Even worse, if people don't opt for Blissey they opt for a double special defensive core meaning that special attackers do not have to break through one, no they have to break through two walls in order to become effective. In the Snorlax era you often only had to break through Snorlax, which really wasn't that hard because it's so quickly worn down by repeated switches.

So what variety do we have? The usage stats suggests that we have minimal variety as there are some Pokémon that became more viable, but there are enough Pokémon that became less viable. Oh boy we can use a special defensive core now! News flash, you could do that in the Snorlax era as well. Defensive Ludi was the only Ludi used in the Snorlax era and we are seeing that it's the only effective Ludi set in this meta too. It was just way inferior to Snorlax, and special cores are still way inferior to Blissey.

The only difference in this metagame is that Blissey is more passive than Snorlax but this metagame is actually even more punishing for special attackers. Also a lot of teams carry Metagross, Weezing is still a very common Pokémon and Gengar and Forretress are still on the top side of the usage stats. These are all Pokémon that naturally deal with the most common Snorlax sets, although Gengar needs his Disable set (which again makes his versatility less problematic).

What do we get out of this? Nothing, I repeat fucking nothing has changed. Or there hasn't been enough change to warrant the ban on Snorlax. Oh yeah, what was this test for again? Oh right if Snorlax was unhealthy for the metagame. Result: this metagame is still shit (dw I watched tournies and PSL matches). What does this mean? We don't have a reason to ban Snorlax. Or we could pull a UU Council and ban it anyway because it's supposedly 'bad for the meta'. Done.


I always thought thinknice doesnt think nice but you actually do think nice. Finally someone who sees and knows whats ou supposed to be like. Also i wanna add even if people run mono attacking gimmickt set, bliss still has a very high chance of beating that sp attacker prolly except espeon.
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Yey for double posts. So, in the original Snorlax thread we established that Snorlax does not fit any of the Uber criteria well enough for it to be banned. It can't reliable sweep on its own and it can't wall as much of the metagame as it would like. There is no point in discussing this further as it has been discussed and the only reason we have this suspect test is because the council agreed that it did not fit the uber criteria of an offense, defense or support Pokémon, or any combination of those.

 

We have this suspect test because we want to know if Snorlax was influencing the metagame negatively. This has yet to be proven. The metagame is not more enjoyable and the diversity it offers, is not really diversity. In fact stall got even more effective with Snorlax gone. Seeing as offense had quite some common answers to Snorlax like Machamp, Rhydon, Gengar and Metagross. Stall however had a hard time dealing with Snorlax outside of Skarmory, as Weezing doesn't fit stall teams too much.

 

Oh, but now I don't get punished for running special attackers? Is what we are hearing oh so often now. This is  the biggest delusion you can give yourself. We are even more punished for running special attackers in this metagame. And special attackers require the support of Dugtrio even more than in the Snorlax metagame. Why is this? Well Snorlax was often favored above Blissey and of course it was way more superior than Ludicolo or Umbreon. But, Snorlax was breakable by Starmie or SS Kingdra or even Jolteon. Now that Snorlax is gone people immediately opt for Blissey, and Blissey is impossible to break for special attackers, unless you run some gimmicky mono-attacking set.

 

Even worse, if people don't opt for Blissey they opt for a double special defensive core meaning that special attackers do not have to break through one, no they have to break through two walls in order to become effective. In the Snorlax era you often only had to break through Snorlax, which really wasn't that hard because it's so quickly worn down by repeated switches.

 

So what variety do we have? The usage stats suggests that we have minimal variety as there are some Pokémon that became more viable, but there are enough Pokémon that became less viable. Oh boy we can use a special defensive core now! News flash, you could do that in the Snorlax era as well. Defensive Ludi was the only Ludi used in the Snorlax era and we are seeing that it's the only effective Ludi set in this meta too. It was just way inferior to Snorlax, and special cores are still way inferior to Blissey.

 

The only difference in this metagame is that Blissey is more passive than Snorlax but this metagame is actually even more punishing for special attackers. Also a lot of teams carry Metagross, Weezing is still a very common Pokémon and Gengar and Forretress are still on the top side of the usage stats. These are all Pokémon that naturally deal with the most common Snorlax sets, although Gengar needs his Disable set (which again makes his versatility less problematic).

 

What do we get out of this? Nothing, I repeat fucking nothing has changed. Or there hasn't been enough change to warrant the ban on Snorlax. Oh yeah, what was this test for again? Oh right if Snorlax was unhealthy for the metagame. Result: this metagame is still shit (dw I watched tournies and PSL matches). What does this mean? We don't have a reason to ban Snorlax. Or we could pull a UU Council and ban it anyway because it's supposedly 'bad for the meta'. Done.

 

While i agree with most of the things you said, i don't think you understood what some of us meant with "punished".

The fact is, with most* sp hitters when snorlax comes in, you switch. Which is the same you'd do against blissey anyway.

With more punishing they meant "More punishing to switch out on".

I mean, the worst thing that could happen when you switch on blissey is getting paralyze'd, but it can easily be avoided with some double switches (bliss against bliss, hue).

This puts a lot of pressure on the opponent and gives stall teams a lot of troubles since you  can't stop it with just a good defensive core..

But as you stated, snorlax doesn't fit any uber criteria, it just makes stall less viable.

 

Anyway, i found blissey easier to take down with gengar, sometimes just having pain split is enough to pp stall it, but there are sets that work way better.

So even with some sp hitters on my team, i'd rather have to face blissey than lax.

That thing is just too strong, even thought it can't be classified as uber

Edited by Vaeldras
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I'd like to come back on two points :

 

  • First you said that if we are running special attackers, we are more punished in this metagame (which means that blissey is more punishing). Well, that's just wrong imo. Blissey doesn't punish anything, it just sponges extremely well special hits. This is very different. If I want to run something like Starmie rapid spin (which is maybe the most viable spinner of the game) or a Jolteon support (thinking about moves like wish, healbell...), I am a lot more free than before, because as you said Blissey is passive. You don't have to constantly fear a destructive Curse set-up, bad paralysis with Body Slam, or even a surprising Pursuit in your face. But yeah, blissey will stall you. You just have to find alternatives. If your opponent always brings a Blissey when he sees a special atker, you might take the lead easily with judicious switches, because blissey remains a bait. Also you can put directly a pressure with a calm minder. Only one kind of blissey blocks classic CMinders or Subminders (toxic + seismic). As blissey is almost forced to touch gengar, the third slot will generally be a special move (RIP vs disable gengar). We assume that the 4th slot goes to softboiled. Of course all the blisseys aren't like that, so it can be easier for your CMinder in other cases. But even with this set, you can bring a cminder with only 1 offensive move to setup on bliss. I agree the coverage will be bad, but you can manage to kill what annoys you just before trying this setup. And what about trying to bring your CMinder on a safe WoW (like weezing) before ? Then toxic or twave will be useless to stop you. So yeah, i think we have possibilites, and we can't say that we are punished. Everyone here already saw a Curselax sweeping a team. Not sure about CM Blissey...

 

  • Secondly you said that special defensive cores and way inferior to Blissey. Wtf ? You are assuming that we have only 1 way to play. Special attackers aren't helped in our metagame (no items...). With resistances and immunities you can of course make a very good special core, even if your pokemons aren't huge walls like blissey, or aren't walls at all. Also it will let you keep a kind of pressure on your opponent.
Edited by XPLOZ
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We have this suspect test because we want to know if Snorlax was influencing the metagame negatively. This has yet to be proven. The metagame is not more enjoyable and the diversity it offers, is not really diversity. In fact stall got even more effective with Snorlax gone. Seeing as offense had quite some common answers to Snorlax like Machamp, Rhydon, Gengar and Metagross. Stall however had a hard time dealing with Snorlax outside of Skarmory, as Weezing doesn't fit stall teams too much.

Are you forgetting that stall was near useless in the lax meta? I believe this was established in another thread. If the lax ban made it to where a usless play style got more viable then isnt that a good sign of a healthier meta? Also machamp is a poor answer to lax as it cant come into lax no where near as often as lax can get into play. Bulky gengar can kind of take lax assuming no crunch def drop. The sub disable set relies on crits to win, and trust me you can go through an entire FP pp w/o getting a crit. Rhydon is about the only thing that can come in on and take lax consistently. Even if weezing did fit stall teams he was shit at taking on lax, especiall now that hes loss physical sludge bomb. They just stalled each other out and sometimes weezing would even die to too many parahax (im not sure if he wins the pp war or not bc of rest on lax).

 
Oh, but now I don't get punished for running special attackers? Is what we are hearing oh so often now. This is  the biggest delusion you can give yourself. We are even more punished for running special attackers in this metagame. And special attackers require the support of Dugtrio even more than in the Snorlax metagame. Why is this? Well Snorlax was often favored above Blissey and of course it was way more superior than Ludicolo or Umbreon. But, Snorlax was breakable by Starmie or SS Kingdra or even Jolteon. Now that Snorlax is gone people immediately opt for Blissey, and Blissey is impossible to break for special attackers, unless you run some gimmicky mono-attacking set.

My lax is 6hko's by timid starmies surf. And thats only a possibility. Modest still cant even gurantee the 6hko. And he also 3hkos skarm at +6. Is he more breakable than a bliss? Ofc, but not so much so that its even really worth mentioning. The benifits of running this squishier spcl wall FAR FAR outweight the downside of not being able to take 2 more hits. It so far out weighs it that i dont even see it as being a point worth bringing up. Running special attackers in this meta is not more punishing than the lax meta. Even if lax was more breakable by spcl attakers the punishment you take for letting one in makes it not worth trying to break one with a spcl attacker.


 
Even worse, if people don't opt for Blissey they opt for a double special defensive core meaning that special attackers do not have to break through one, no they have to break through two walls in order to become effective. In the Snorlax era you often only had to break through Snorlax, which really wasn't that hard because it's so quickly worn down by repeated switches.

He is NOT quickly worn down by repeated switches. How do you define quickly? 6hko with rest isnt going to die easy. Also anyone who run 2 spcl walls now are going to run them with lax too. Dugtrio makes people scared to bring just one spcl wall. And lax is killed by dugtrio just like bliss is.

 
So what variety do we have? The usage stats suggests that we have minimal variety as there are some Pokémon that became more viable, but there are enough Pokémon that became less viable. Oh boy we can use a special defensive core now! News flash, you could do that in the Snorlax era as well. Defensive Ludi was the only Ludi used in the Snorlax era and we are seeing that it's the only effective Ludi set in this meta too. It was just way inferior to Snorlax, and special cores are still way inferior to Blissey.

As you even admitted the usage stats could be victim to slow evolving meta syndrome. Are you going to deny the increased viability of pokemon such as aerodyctyle, Ursaring, Espeon, and kingdra. There were a few others but i cant remember them atm. Also even if gengar became more "dangerous", which i question, he is seen less often which is a very good thing.


The only difference in this metagame is that Blissey is more passive than Snorlax but this metagame is actually even more punishing for special attackers. Also a lot of teams carry Metagross, Weezing is still a very common Pokémon and Gengar and Forretress are still on the top side of the usage stats. These are all Pokémon that naturally deal with the most common Snorlax sets, although Gengar needs his Disable set (which again makes his versatility less problematic).
 

The only difference in this metagame is that blissey is more passive, a entire playstyle becomes more viable, quite a few pokes become more viable, and we are more free to build a team with a more variety of pokes. And actually those pokemon need support to take on lax most of the time. Metagross w/o CB can be set up on by lax irrc, Weezing is shit at taking on lax and can only hope to stall him out or explode, Fortress dies to Fire Punch so you need to bring something to scout for that, and if he has it there goes a lax switch in for you. Gengar is about the only thing on that list that does a good job and even he can fail due to RNG or the lack there of.

What do we get out of this? Nothing, I repeat fucking nothing has changed. Or there hasn't been enough change to warrant the ban on Snorlax. Oh yeah, what was this test for again? Oh right if Snorlax was unhealthy for the metagame. Result: this metagame is still shit (dw I watched tournies and PSL matches). What does this mean? We don't have a reason to ban Snorlax. Or we could pull a UU Council and ban it anyway because it's supposedly 'bad for the meta'. Done.

I disagree, other comp players and I fell as if we are much more free to build different teams w/o lax in the picture. The meta is may still be shit but its better than b4. If you want to call it pulling a UU counsil and banning him just because then so be it, either way, for the reasons stated above, you get a better meta out of it. At the very least extend the test so that A. people can have more time to adjust and B. we can get more concrete usage stats thanks to the psl.
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@XPLOZ
I think by implying special cores are inferior to Blissey is saying 'why run 2 pokes when u can run blissey which sponge every special attack just as well.'

 

Why ? Because you can keep a constant pressure and avoid playing a bait. Same on the pysical side. That's just an other playstyle.

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I

  • Secondly you said that special defensive cores and way inferior to Blissey. Wtf ? You are assuming that we have only 1 way to play. Special attackers aren't helped in our metagame (no items...). With resistances and immunities you can of course make a very good special core, even if your pokemons aren't huge walls like blissey, or aren't walls at all. Also it will let you keep a kind of pressure on your opponent.

 

 

Nah, if anything it'll let your opponent keep pressure on you for not having a decent sp wall.

Hence the over 50% usage

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Why ? Because you can keep a constant pressure and avoid playing a bait. Same on the pysical side. That's just an other playstyle.

Well for the physical side you have to run a core because there is no 1 wall that sponges ALL physicals. He is saying, I think, why run a core when Blissey walls ALL specials.(except for gimmicks ofc) Edited by DrCraig
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Well for the physical side you have to run a core because there is no 1 wall that sponges ALL physicals. He is saying, I think, why run a core when Blissey walls ALL specials.(except for gimmicks ofc)

Blisey, bait. Bait, blissey. Keywords here.

Isn't there a thread for people to cry about blissey?

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