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[Discussion] Snorlax (OU)


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The deadline is tomorrow, what do you guys think? I like the meta without lax, although some would prefer the chubby monster. Do you think Snorlax should even get the light of day once May 12th hits, or do you think it should be banned for a while ? Lets have a fair and balanced debate about lax without slandering each others reputation. If I may throw my hat in the ring, I think Lax should stay out of OU because it is too dangerous and curselax sponges hits easily. Rhydon is a check to Lax, but what happens if lax has a surf set (thank Bowser for telling me about that)? That would be one dead rhino.... I think curselax doesn't really have much counters or checks to neutralize it. Like I said, I am a rookie in the competitive scene, I want to know what you guys think and one more note, NO TROLLING! I want to hear reinvent opinions that have to do with the threat of lax or why lax should be put back in OU, I would like to hear what every competitive mind thinks about lax.

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I see merit in Cody's post in the sense that people have no choice but to adapt very slowly. Breeding will be more and more difficult and with no exacr IVs or BP payout increases we are mostly stuck with the same Pokes we were using. Maybe there should be an exstension on the test as it is not clear on what should be done yet.

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What I liked about not having Snorlax is the freedom with which I can build my team. I ran a team once with no sp walls, I ran pokemon that I would never have ever run when Snorlax was still around. There may/may not be some variety because some people will choose to stall but the fact that we can choose what we want is what matters most to me. 

 

When Snorlax was there I would've made sure that I had at least 2 pokemon to take it down, with the 2nd pokemon being some sort of a backup option incase the first one gets parahaxed to death. 

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What I liked about not having Snorlax is the freedom with which I can build my team. I ran a team once with no sp walls, I ran pokemon that I would never have ever run when Snorlax was still around. There may/may not be some variety because some people will choose to stall but the fact that we can choose what we want is what matters most to me. 

 

When Snorlax was there I would've made sure that I had at least 2 pokemon to take it down, with the 2nd pokemon being some sort of a backup option incase the first one gets parahaxed to death. 

That was the minimal of what i would do. When lax was around i usally ran a metagorss to scare him out (cant really stop his set up tho) a physical wall that can come in and either force him out (phasing or just exploding in the case of forrtress) and a sub disable gengar (hope for crit) and a CB poke with superpower. If i got rid of any of those options it would usually be the physical wall bc in the end most of them cant really do much to stop lax. It was really the only way i could make a balanced team while not getting stomped on by lax. Ofc i didnt have a SD or CB hera at the time which would help in team building (his switch in to lax opportunities were limited tho) and i didnt really liked running rhydon. You can say that i was over prepared for lax (which is prolly why WoW gengar shit on me at the time) but i felt like i needed to be in order not to get raped by a para or lucky crit from this thing.

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point is nothing much changed, you still see very same pokes its like the usage of lax just divided so we saw other stuff like umbreon, ludi, increase in blissey but overall its pretty much same. Ursa was always there even when lax was around cody, and whoever said this lazy to check "3-4 new pokes we see in the meta isnt enough to warrant snorlax a full ban" senile said it himself snorlax isnt OP. and tbh it doesnt limit team building, everyone still runs them weezings, wow gengars, metagross, pretty much every poke you people say are "must haves" when snorlax was here. so i dont see much change except for the more boring meta thats all.

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everyone still runs them weezings, wow gengars, metagross, pretty much every poke you people say are "must haves" when snorlax was here


That's the biggest lie i've heard. of course shitty people use the same team over and over again afraid of trying different strategies but RIGHT NOW is the moment when we can use different Pokemon I don't use blissey but I run Ludicolo, Lanturn, Umbreon (Umbreon a littel set up bait) Swift Swim Kingdra, bulky Starmie, etc, etc with Snorlax around I couldn't do that for sure. If you're one of those guys it's ok but don't speak for the rest of the people
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In my personal experience, the new meta is safer. One of my main ways of dealing with lax was pulling doubles with rhydon. Snorlax is usually a pretty obvious switch if you have anything with a special move in. My way of dealing with snorlax was rhydon + a cleric. If I missed a double I would have to risk the parahax, and I would still lose to variants with earthquake or surf (though I rarely RARELY saw surf). And I would try not to put anything on my team that could be snorlax bait.
I feel a lot more free in my team building now that lax is gone.

That said, I feel neutral about the ban. I'm leaning more towards snorlax being banned, but I think both metas suck, just in a different way.

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That's the biggest lie i've heard. of course shitty people use the same team over and over again afraid of trying different strategies but RIGHT NOW is the moment when we can use different Pokemon I don't use blissey but I run Ludicolo, Lanturn, Umbreon (Umbreon a littel set up bait) Swift Swim Kingdra, bulky Starmie, etc, etc with Snorlax around I couldn't do that for sure. If you're one of those guys it's ok but don't speak for the rest of the people

quite the contrary, SS Kingdra could break Snorlax and Bulky Starmie doesn't care much about Starmie. Special attackers like that lose even more viability in a meta where everyone runs 2 spdef walls or blissey. While Snorlax was breakable for these Pokemon.
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Of course Snorlax is a bit more breakable for sp atkers than Bliss (thank god ?), but it stays very hard to break in our metagame (it was said many times but : no items for sp atkers, no 4G moves like focus blast...). Also, the main point is that Snorlax is a lot more punishing imo. Not only with this very strong Curse set-up and this spam of body hax, but also even for frail sp atkers. I remind you Snorlax can be played with Pursuit and/or Choice band. It can be a free kill on Jolt or Starmie for example. I agree that Snorlax doesn't have a direct recovery move (thank god again ?), but as lamerb showed it, it can take all the strongest special moves in the face. So a wish support can be very annoying.

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quite the contrary, SS Kingdra could break Snorlax and Bulky Starmie doesn't care much about Starmie. Special attackers like that lose even more viability in a meta where everyone runs 2 spdef walls or blissey. While Snorlax was breakable for these Pokemon.

 

[spoiler]

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[/spoiler]

 

Think nice is right. If you look at the data above you will see both metagames have special attackers. However, in the snorlax metagame you will see starmie was the main "go to" seen where it was seen in 1 of every 4 encounters. That means people felt like they could break through teams without calm minding. Then if you will look at the blissey metagame, you will see espeon 9% and Starmie 11% usage - almost half and half. So it made about half the players prefer calm minding then sweeping as opposing to trying to break blissey with starmie(no calm mind). It's makes perfect sense and it's the effect of blissey's centralization on the metagame.

Edited by bl0nde
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How was this board made ? Cause i have the feeling it isn't so relevant and it was made on few tourneys only.

Anyway, this increase of Espeon (0% to 9%) according to this board is quite significant.

As we have now some difficulties to adapt ourselves to a new metagame because of the breeding system (all players aren't rich and resourceful, for example a very good espeon with hp ground or an other good HP costs like 800k+...), I'd bet the usage of a pokemon like that will continue to grow.

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Let's give it one more month. If the new usage proves that the meta is not really changed without Snorlax, we can have the beast back. I am sure many people miss bringing 2 pokemon that can OHKO a +1 curse Snorlax on their every team, but please, bear a bit more.

Edited by OldKeith
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quite the contrary, SS Kingdra could break Snorlax and Bulky Starmie doesn't care much about Starmie. Special attackers like that lose even more viability in a meta where everyone runs 2 spdef walls or blissey. While Snorlax was breakable for these Pokemon.

 

It's not because for me to beat a blissey is like 100% easier than to beat a snorlax fighting against parahax or curse set so those special attackers are more useful now, besides I can use other gengar sets but just the bulkier one with pain and WoW

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Ban or unban lax we will still see same pokes. Its ou you cant survive with just anything in here. And arimanius dont count me with the people who only play mainstream stuff. People who actually duel me from timw to time knows that

And its not about whats easier for you to, break i myself would rather see an oponent using bliss than lax, but i know meta is better with lax in it.

Of course Snorlax is a bit more breakable for sp atkers than Bliss (thank god ?), but it stays very hard to break in our metagame (it was said many times but : no items for sp atkers, no 4G moves like focus blast...). Also, the main point is that Snorlax is a lot more punishing imo. Not only with this very strong Curse set-up and this spam of body hax, but also even for frail sp atkers. I remind you Snorlax can be played with Pursuit and/or Choice band. It can be a free kill on Jolt or Starmie for example. I agree that Snorlax doesn't have a direct recovery move (thank god again ?), but as lamerb showed it, it can take all the strongest special moves in the face. So a wish support can be very annoying.

While bliss doesnt even need any support to fully wall sp atkers basically making pokes like starmie, jolteon and others without cm to be fully walled all day and even if you have cm most bliss have toxic so it is pretty mych better sp def wall Edited by Noad
Please don't double or triple post.
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How was this board made ? Cause i have the feeling it isn't so relevant

 

Tranzmaster posted the usage data on page 2 post #44. The pre snorlax ban data is something I saved on my PC from a previous tier discussion(like this one) and it can be seen on page 5 post #110.

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quite the contrary, SS Kingdra could break Snorlax and Bulky Starmie doesn't care much about Starmie. Special attackers like that lose even more viability in a meta where everyone runs 2 spdef walls or blissey. While Snorlax was breakable for these Pokemon.


its not just about whether or not you can break x wall with this attacker. To me running starmie was lax bait. If i kept starmie in i was asking for punishment. So i usually ran jolt unless i needed something to spin and the star was my only option. Jolt could at least para him and it only baits bslam which my gengar could switch into. With a blissey meta letting the opponents spcl wall come in on starmie wasnt that big of a deal. But also in a blisset meta cm sweepers are really strong ao i have a feeling ppl are opting for them over something that cant aet up like starmie.
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Ban or unban lax we will still see same pokes.

this is just wrong tho. Lokk at the usage stats, gengar dropped almost 8% espy went from 0 to 9% swqmpert dropped, our #1 used poke dropped, ursaring rised quit a bit, so did aero. Heraceoss dropped by 20%. This is according to blondes char. Those of you who think that the meta is the same just stop bc its not true.

Srry bout double post on phone ans editing is a pain plz combine Edited by codylramey
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its not just about whether or not you can break x wall with this attacker. To me running starmie was lax bait. If i kept starmie in i was asking for punishment. So i usually ran jolt unless i needed something to spin and the star was my only option. Jolt could at least para him and it only baits bslam which my gengar could switch into. With a blissey meta letting the opponents spcl wall come in on starmie wasnt that big of a deal. But also in a blisset meta cm sweepers are really strong ao i have a feeling ppl are opting for them over something that cant aet up like starmie.


Why is spinning the only option for starmie? It can run sub + 3 attacks to scout to see if lax is even running pursuit. And if it isn't u can then atleast hit it hard then the next time. Spinning isn't that much of an issue when spikers are set up bait for countless number of pokes. So remember how u say about people just havnt adapted yet, maybe people won't want to adapt to be able to use the star? And before people say that sub + 3 attacks is bad let's just say your opponent doesn't carry snorlax or blissey, there is a good chance it can 2 hko everything else outside of umbreon. And if any of them are weak it can still sweep. So starmie to me is just people always relating it to spin instead of trying to go full attack
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Why is spinning the only option for starmie? It can run sub + 3 attacks to scout to see if lax is even running pursuit. And if it isn't u can then atleast hit it hard then the next time. Spinning isn't that much of an issue when spikers are set up bait for countless number of pokes. So remember how u say about people just havnt adapted yet, maybe people won't want to adapt to be able to use the star? And before people say that sub + 3 attacks is bad let's just say your opponent doesn't carry snorlax or blissey, there is a good chance it can 2 hko everything else outside of umbreon. And if any of them are weak it can still sweep. So starmie to me is just people always relating it to spin instead of trying to go full attack


ur missing the point completly. I only considered running starmie as my spcl attacker BECAUSE he can spin. Having to run sub to scout for pursuit (which btw nobody would ever use on a starmie behind a sub bc that would be stupid) ruiens it for starmie. The problem i had with starmie was bc it wasnsnorlax bait. But being blissey bait isnt so bad. Also starmie cant 2hko everything.
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ur missing the point completly. I only considered running starmie as my spcl attacker BECAUSE he can spin. Having to run sub to scout for pursuit (which btw nobody would ever use on a starmie behind a sub bc that would be stupid) ruiens it for starmie. The problem i had with starmie was bc it wasnsnorlax bait. But being blissey bait isnt so bad. Also starmie cant 2hko everything.


Exactly everyone uses it for spinning and that's it, and what can't it 2 hko outside of umbreon and lax
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