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[Discussion] Critical Hits


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How many times have you had that game plan played out so perfect in your head that there was no possible way you could lose. Ok, I switch in Metagross here and take at max 50% damage while I have about 75%. I can even activate my salac and either kill this poke or force it to switch. 

 

DoubleJ sends out Metagross. KingBowser's Gengar used Shadow Ball... Critical Hit!  Metagross fainted. GGnore. 

 

This is an instance where absolute luck trumps skill. It's the most frustrating thing in the game. Couple that with secondary effects like paralysis, burn, and freeze, and you can have a situation where one pokemon doesn't even get to attack and is instead just fodder. 

 

I myself enjoy secondary effects and don't see them as that much of a factor with the plethora of clerics available, the use of lum berry, and also pokemon with the ability GUTS. Yet Critical Hits are something that is blatantly silly. We even nerfed Critical Hits a few updates ago, but they still randomly just fuck you. 

 

I would prefer that this occurrence be dropped as a mechanic in this game. I would love to see skill triumph luck and not have to worry about the dangers of critical hits. A critical hit is so dangerous that there have been countless times where me and my teammates refuse to make an otherwise safe switch-in just because of that risk.

 

tl;dr Critical Hits are uncompetitive. And with the amount of grinding in this game losing because of luck is just mind numbingly painful. Please remove Critical Hits altogether. 

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Inb4 "no, lock this thread."

This is kinda tricky one. I personally wouldn't mind it because I want comp matches to be decided by the actual plays. But then again...

Alright let me start up by "reminding" that I think crits are important because otherwise defensive set up would be just too easy and risk-free. But I agree RNG crit damage boosts itself are annoying. Basically there's not a situation where you would feel good when it happens. Either you get mad for getting a match stolen away from you or you feel like you really didn't deserve to win. However, crit damage boosts are an intended mechanic and this is a game which is filled with RNG. I don't wanna go all slippery slide but when is it to put up a limit when a RNG mechanic is accepted and when is not. If we took away crits for example, someone might find secondary effects or moves not being 100% annoying and so on, so we kinda need to remember how this game, it's not exactly build on competitiveness 100% and making everything to support "competitiveness" seems a little bit "forced". It's pretty hard to draw a single opinion about this.

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Lel.

We could have the option to turn them on/off on duels, but that's it.

 

"And with the amount of grinding in this game losing because of luck is just mind numbingly painful"

 

Wa? Are you talking about tt?

Btw, didn't they change the crit mechanics already?

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The reason it's in the game is to prevent defensive setup from being overpowered.
I wouldn't be opposed to crits only ignoring defensive boosts and not boosting damage output, but I know it's not going to happen.
Or be able to choose x number of times during a game where you are immune to crits, but that won't happen either.

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We all understand the risks of the game and the excitement of catching a critical hit to save your bad playing ass, but in the end is it really all that healthy? This is one RNG mechanic that we don't have an answer for (Aside from Freeze which can last forever and a half). 

 

We have clerics, we have guts, and we have lum berries for secondary effects. We have nothing to prevent crit aside from Shell Armor. Idk, maybe I'm crazy since you all seem to be pro-crit, but just sit back and think about how much better the game would be without a critical hit swaying the tide of a match. 

 

 

"And with the amount of grinding in this game losing because of luck is just mind numbingly painful"

 

Wa? Are you talking about tt?

 

 

Not really sure what you're getting at. If you don't grind this game you honestly can't play on a competitive level. After all that hard work you suddenly get crit and lose the entire match because you're momentum and game plan were shot to shit. 

 

So, what are you talking about?

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We all understand the risks of the game and the excitement of catching a critical hit to save your bad playing ass

 

Although I understand that in official critical hits can be extremely irritating, the vast majority of players play for the love of the game, to eliminate critical hits for the "best" players, would be to disregard the "less good" players. 

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

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DoubleJ, on 10 Apr 2015 - 1:08 PM, said:
Which leads me to thinking that Critical Hits should be eliminated from competitive play considering the amount of time we put in to make our pokes and compete at a relatively high level.

That is a complete non sequitor. How does the static presence of a core game mechanic have anything to do with the time we put into training comps? How are crits any more impactful when they happen against seasoned veterans as compared to when they affect a relatively new comp player?

I mean ffs Jj, we have moves with special crit mechanics. We have abilities with special crit mechanics. We have items with special crit mechanics. We have strategies that can actually be built around crit mechanics (focus energy scope lense kingdra). How can you genuinely suggest that eliminating crits from comp play is a. Logical, b. Desirable, or c. Even remotely related to a discussion about doubles and the difficulties of training comps?? Cmon man


^^posted this here since jjs quote was deleted from doubles thread and my response will therefore be soon to go, too

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We all understand the risks of the game and the excitement of catching a critical hit to save your bad playing ass, but in the end is it really all that healthy? This is one RNG mechanic that we don't have an answer for (Aside from Freeze which can last forever and a half). 

 

We have clerics, we have guts, and we have lum berries for secondary effects. We have nothing to prevent crit aside from Shell Armor. Idk, maybe I'm crazy since you all seem to be pro-crit, but just sit back and think about how much better the game would be without a critical hit swaying the tide of a match. 

 

 

Not really sure what you're getting at. If you don't grind this game you honestly can't play on a competitive level. After all that hard work you suddenly get crit and lose the entire match because you're momentum and game plan were shot to shit. 

 

So, what are you talking about?

 

Yeh, but it's not like you can lose your pokes due to rng, critical hits have nothing to do with the amount of grinding, you either like it or not.

 

Edit after reading gunthug's post: Yeh, even though there aren't really many pokes able to take advantage of focus lense.

I mean, i do have a focus lense machamp, which will definitely take care of curselax since forcing it to sleep has always been easy, but that's it.

Edited by Vaeldras
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Hmmm I'm sensing some hostility from individuals, but I don't think my point is being made clearly enough relating grinding and crits. 

 

1. You put an exceptional amount of time into team building

2. You compete against other talented players in official events with great prizes

3. You want to play to compete via skill not luck

4. Losing because of luck is very discouraging after all of the time that you put in building that team

 

This thread was a point I wanted to make, not upset the community because it ventures away from canon. So I guess the next time any of you lose to crit I don't want to see the bitching. 

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Hmmm I'm sensing some hostility from individuals, but I don't think my point is being made clearly enough relating grinding and crits. 

 

1. You put an exceptional amount of time into team building

2. You compete against other talented players in official events with great prizes

3. You want to play to compete via skill not luck

4. Losing because of luck is very discouraging after all of the time that you put in building that team

 

This thread was a point I wanted to make, not upset the community because it ventures away from canon. So I guess the next time any of you lose to crit I don't want to see the uguuing. 

There's a difference between bitching about crits, and making a thread suggesting to get rid of a core game mechanic. Maybe I'm alone in this opinion, but this thread is a collossal waste of time, and was the 3rd such waste of time to pollute our comp alley in just two days. But whoah, if you just wanted to make a point, not spur serious discussion, then alright nvm guess that's fine then

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JJ, I love you but...

 

I agree with Gunthug. By removing crits, you're taking away a core game mechanic. Something that could be a factor in every battle no matter what you do. By removing crits altogether, you're essentially giving every Pokemon in the game Shell Armor. Think about what that means for Pokemon such as Slowbro, Snorlax, Espeon, etc. If you let them set up enough, the games basically over.

 

Now, you could argue that since you let them get to that point you deserve to lose. However, at that point we have to consider why the developers even decided to add crits to the game in the first place. They act as a non-reliable safety net of sorts; they add unreliability into the game to make it more thought-provoking, and turn helpless situations into miraculous comebacks. I strongly believe that their removal would be detrimental to pretty much all competitive battling- it wouldn't feel the same at all, or play the same to be quite honest.

 

It's as I always like to say: at the end of the day, against two players of equal skill, Pokemon battling will always be half determined by luck. Playing VGC especially has made me realize that.

Edited by Kiliminati
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It's as I always like to say: at the end of the day, Pokemon will always be 50% skill and 50% luck. Playing VGC especially has made me realize that.

Don't agree with this part. I wouldn't call it 50/50, better players will consistently win. But when two evenly skilled players with an even matchup fight, RNG will be the factor that wins it.

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JJ, I love you but...

 

I agree with Gunthug. By removing crits, you're taking away a core game mechanic. Something that could be a factor in every battle no matter what you do. By removing crits altogether, you're essentially giving every Pokemon in the game Shell Armor. Think about what that means for Pokemon such as Slowbro, Snorlax, Espeon, etc. If you let them set up enough, the games basically over.

 

Now, you could argue that since you let them get to that point you deserve to lose. However, at that point we have to consider why the developers even decided to add crits to the game in the first place. They act as a non-reliable safety net of sorts; they add unreliability into the game to make it more thought-provoking, and turn helpless situations into miraculous comebacks. I strongly believe that their removal would be detrimental to pretty much all competitive battling- it wouldn't feel the same at all, or play the same to be quite honest.

 

It's as I always like to say: at the end of the day, Pokemon will always be 50% skill and 50% luck. Playing VGC especially has made me realize that.

 

Nah, they probably added them because they thought it was cool.

Still, i like crit hits, it's a lot of fun to spectate a battle full of crits.

On the other hand, when you're actually playing...

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Although critical hits can lead to some unfortunate events when battling, at least both players are able to dish out a critical hit. I can seem unfair sometimes, but I believe this adds a great aspect to dueling. Critical hits have not only been a part of Pokemon from the beginning, but almost all MMO's in general. I've both lost and won because of crits, and that is just a part of the game. Luck affects games just like it affects everyday life, it's something you cannot control and that is what I love about it.

 

Your only hope is that you are born under the sign of the thief.

[Spoiler]I apologize if nobody gets this reference..[/Spoiler]

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I think anything is worth discussing if someone learns something from the discussion, although it can be tempting to punish the subject being brought up in the first place in this sort of case! 

 

I agree that crits should not be removed but Tyrone's video really hit home for me combined with Jay being unhappy about losing over crits. Crits seem uncompetitive but maybe there's a way to reduce their impact with how tournaments are held? Would people to interested in the occasionally Round Robin official? It would probably mean less people entering but it could have more of a competitive feel too.

 

The other question is: are round robins necessarily to ensure the "best player" is most likely winning? Are there other methods for officials? It is tempting to want to throw crits out the the window haha but they do have some use (imo) and maybe there's away around their "cons". 

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Any good game has elements of randomness. If we played a game where every attack did the same amount of damage every time, freezes, burns and para's never happened, Crits never happened, flinches never happened, and so on we'd lose a huge element of what can make battles interesting. I agree crits are annoying, but hax just happen and we sort of just have to live with em.

 

If you don't like randomness then Chess is a good game for you.

 

EDIT: Tyrone's video 100% sums up how randomness and skill interact. WTB better tournament layouts.

Edited by Robofiend
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