Feedback Wanted: Doubles

[Noad]

Okay, so after reading Fred's post and talking to a few players in game I finally decided to make this thread. I would like to hear honest and frank opinions from the community about how they feel about Doubles. Do you like to play Doubles? If you don't, what is the reason for this?

 

To me, Doubles has always seemed like the neglected format and with a seemingly small group of players actually owning a dedicated Doubles team. I think that a lot of us would like to see this change. 

 

I will keep this OP short because really the opinions that matter are yours the player, you play this game and I want you to enjoy all aspects of competitive play.

 

If you need Doubles usage, that's no problem we can provide that. 

 

What do you suggest we do to improve Doubles, if you feel there is room for improvement?

 

*Disclaimer*: Bugs are not my area of expertise, if you have encountered a bug with the Doubles format please report it here. 

[Archinix]

I dislike the tier, no particular reason really just my personal taste.

 

Something to be noted though, most of the Doubles player base is probably only because it is in the TT.

[flavajabari]

i love playing doubles, watching doubles & dont rlly understand why its underappreciated, its rlly fun and involves a totally different approach to comp play compared to singles.

[jayfeatskydd]

IMO doubles usage would be good for new players to the tier, lets them know what is used and what is viable(Run Kanga or or else).

I'm more concerned with the amount of doubles officials, there are not many. It is true, not many people are dedicated to doubles, that being said a good way to help this would be more frequent doubles tournaments.

 

Edit: Doubles is a tier in our TT's, I really think that more official doubles tourneys would help bring more light to doubles. If it is going to be a part of our TTs, it needs more attention than it currently has.

My two cents.

Edited April 8, 2015 by jayfeatskydd

[BurntZebra]

I like doubles. It is a lot more skill oriented, but it also has a lot more rng. It gives some nice variety to the competitive scene in a month to month basis. I would like to see more doubles tournaments in the future just so that people actually want to make a doubles team, instead of randomly putting together OU singles comps and hoping to get lucky in doubles. 

 

edit: I don't know why people don't play doubles since it seems like 90% of the community is anti-wall meta and doubles doesn't have too many viable walls

Edited April 8, 2015 by BurntZebra

[fredrichnietze]

i think some things in doubles might be a little broken and the large numbers of bugs in addition to possible tier'ing issues and the lack of officials is why few people play doubles and make teams for it. i personally love doubles and it is my favorite tier for the sheer number of possibility. the extra degree of difficulty might be frightening for some people? i think if the bugs were fixed and their were more officials then doubles would take off and the base would grow.

 

one of my family members spilled tea all over the key board and the new one is weird =/ typing on it so hard......

[DrCraig]

If I had the motivation (like tournaments) to grind[spoiler]and grind and grind and grind[/spoiler] comps for a new tier like Doubles I would. I have never played, but I love to watch the tier. The teir welcomes variety and seems fun. Like Jay said, usage statistics and a guide (I think fred has one idk sry i didnt check) would be nice. Maybe one day.

[fredrichnietze]

If I had the motivation (like tournaments) to grind[spoiler]and grind and grind and grind[/spoiler] comps for a new tier like Doubles I would. I have never played, but I love to watch the tier. The teir welcomes variety and seems fun. Like Jay said, usage statistics and a guide (I think fred has one idk sry i didnt check) would be nice. Maybe one day.

i have been slowly making the guide over the past 6 months

[spoiler]

i have about a paragraph sentences so far. been busy + i cant decided how i want to format it and i want it to be perfect.

[/spoiler]

[Vaeldras]

I don't really like them, it's already a lot to manage 1 poke at a time.

Besides, i'm a fan of 1v1's.

If you guys really want doubles, we're gonna need some dedicated no lifers in the council

[Noad]

possible tier'ing issues 

 

I would like to hear more about this, if possible. 

 

Thanks for the input so far guys, more Doubles officials is definitely do-able. 

[fredrichnietze]

I would like to hear more about this, if possible. 

 

Thanks for the input so far guys, more Doubles officials is definitely do-able. 

im starting to wonder about rs flinch hax in doubles and how uncompetative it is or is not. rockslide has a 51% chance of having one of your opponents flinch ignoring the 10% miss chance, and if both users rockslide then it jumps to around 51% chance of flinch per poke and 70%+ chance of flinching one of them(pls dont make me calc percentages) and it seems like 2 fast rockslide users (like cb aero + dd sala) with incredibly high flinch rates can just flinch all their counters to death. the reason firelion quit doubles was because i swept him twice this way and all his counters got flinched to death and i have had 6 flinches in a row b4 due to this. i can think of a few other strategys that are somewhat rng heavy and seem very difficult to beat with anything non gimicky. makes me wonder if maybe doubles needs some tier'ing too? but we dont have nearly enough tournaments or usage stats to even think of discussing anything about it yet.

[BurntZebra]

im starting to wonder about rs flinch hax in doubles and how uncompetative it is or is not. rockslide has a 51% chance of having one of your opponents flinch ignoring the 10% miss chance, and if both users rockslide then it jumps to around 51% chance of flinch per poke and 70%+ chance of flinching one of them(pls dont make me calc percentages) and it seems like 2 fast rockslide users (like cb aero + dd sala) with incredibly high flinch rates can just flinch all their counters to death. the reason firelion quit doubles was because i swept him twice this way and all his counters got flinched to death and i have had 6 flinches in a row b4 due to this. i can think of a few other strategys that are somewhat rng heavy and seem very difficult to beat with anything non gimicky. makes me wonder if maybe doubles needs some tier'ing too? but we dont have nearly enough tournaments or usage stats to even think of discussing anything about it yet.

well there are definitely some viable pokemon that resist rock in doubles, its definitely not an unbeatable strategy. Swampert, hitmontop, rhydon, metagross all see some usage in doubles and can really shut down a rock slide flinch team when they get a free switch in on a cb rock slide from aerodactyl. Rock slide damage is also reduced in doubles (ty gen 6) making it a lot weaker, but still very annoying to have one of your pokemon flinched. 

[DrCraig]

im starting to wonder about rs flinch hax in doubles and how uncompetative it is or is not. rockslide has a 51% chance of having one of your opponents flinch ignoring the 10% miss chance, and if both users rockslide then it jumps to around 51% chance of flinch per poke and 70%+ chance of flinching one of them(pls dont make me calc percentages) and it seems like 2 fast rockslide users (like cb aero + dd sala) with incredibly high flinch rates can just flinch all their counters to death. the reason firelion quit doubles was because i swept him twice this way and all his counters got flinched to death and i have had 6 flinches in a row b4 due to this. i can think of a few other strategys that are somewhat rng heavy and seem very difficult to beat with anything non gimicky. makes me wonder if maybe doubles needs some tier'ing too? but we dont have nearly enough tournaments or usage stats to even think of discussing anything about it yet.

fred its how did you get 51%, its bothering me that I cant figure how you got that number

 

 

edit: wouldn't it be 1/3 chance for both, so 1/3+1/3 = 2/3, so you have a 66.7% chance to see a flinch

and then 1/3*1/3=1/9 so you have an 11.1% chance to flinch both

 

oh nvm u just rounded up a lot

 

but wtf is 51%?

 

Delete this I have no idea what fred is talking about, I'll assume he's correct.

Edited April 9, 2015 by DrCraig

[ThinkNice]

fred its how did you get 51%, its bothering me that I cant figure how you got that number

2 rock slides have 2 times the chance of not flinching 70% of the time, I forgot how to do the rest of chance calculations hue

[DoctorPBC]

I would love to play more doubles, but for me there isn't enough tournaments to make it worth my time getting comps to be competitive.

If you need volunteers to push doubles out I can certainly help, I play a fair amount of VGC so doubles is kinda my forte.

I was debating running a tournament Saturday morning, if there is decent interest I can make it happen

[fredrichnietze]

http://www.smogon.com/bw/articles/double_battles

51% because 30 flinch chance for the first then for the remaining 70% it is 70 x 30/100 or 21%. then 21% chance + 30% chance = 51% chance of having at least one flinch. math sucks.

 

also senile showed this once in original tytr thread when talking about flinch chances for dd tytr vs steel wing skarm cause skarm could only 2hko tytr but tytr could 3hko skarm after 1 dd so if it got one flinch it would beat skarm baring crit/miss(same acc for both moves).

[DoubleJ]

Double's Thoughts on Doubles by DoubleJ

 

The Doubles tier is honestly the most strategy based standard tier we have in Pokemon. If you make one mistake it can cost you the entire match. It is very aggressive and relies on you making the correct prediction multiple times. In other words, it's really really fun and truly challenges you as a competitive player. I enjoy both playing the tier and watching it. It is also less reliant on stall play, unlike the other tiers, and requires extra thought into team building. It truly is a tier of its own. 

 

With the reliance on strategy there would need to be a reliance on some form of a tiering structure. While it is fun to go balls-to-the-wall, it also isn't fun to switch into a broken attack or broken pokemon. Looking at Doubles right now I'm not very concerned considering the Dragons are somewhat neutralized by faster pokes that can OHKO them, thinking Starmie and Gengar (will carry Ice Punch or HP Ice), as well as pokes boosted by the Rain (Kingdra, Ludi, and Oma). Gyarados looks like an immediate threat, but without Ice Beam or Thunderbolt it is easily stopped by Dragons or other Gyarados. Both of which are also hit really hard by STAB CB Rock Slide (Aero). So right now it balances out quite well without any urgency for an immediate tiering council.

 

But with increased tournaments (I hope) players will learn how to abuse what and some things may need to be discussed (don't ban everything though for fucks sake).

 

So in closing, I would definitely like to see more doubles tournaments. If I had the availability I would start on a team right now and play in every one. Unfortunately I get pretty screwed on those week day tournaments where Doubles will likely fit. Nevertheless there are at least four players in LYLE that are prepped to play Doubles right now. I'm sure that number would grow with further exposure (+1 with me).

 

So more tournaments will result in more players. Hax is definitely a part of Doubles so player base may drop after the initial hype due to pure frustration and also just pure bad plays (players will blame rng but in truth they probably lost after turn three).

 

Thanks Noad! 

[DoctorPBC]

https://forums.pokemmo.eu/index.php?/topic/52888-saturday-morning-doubles/?p=1033988

Let's give er a shot

[Gunthug]

One cool thing about the update is it provided us with a renewable source of Protect TMs - I really thought this would help spur doubles teambuilding

[Noad]

@DoubleJ

I see your point about Doubles tournaments being on a weekday. I have to admit I am guilty of putting Doubles on a weekday because I would like to run tournaments on the weekend that are the popular OU and UU. So, yeah lesson learnt about that and I will definitely make sure to run more weekend Doubles because I really think this could be a great format given a little TLC.

 

@Fred

Will take usage for the upcoming Doubles

 

@DocPBC

The more unofficials the better in my opinion, thanks for the support!

 

Sorry for the messy response, it's very late here~

[DoubleJ]

Thanks again Noad, oh and I forgot to add that yes having usage would make for an excellent opportunity for players to get a sense of what is being used. The only benefit I see from Discussion threads these days is that they offer insight into a Pokemon that Smogon doesn't have considering how unique PokeMMO is, so I relate usage to that as well. 

 

#hype

[JIceJDragon]

whoa a lot of reading

simply put

I love how doubles because 

 

1 No banned pokemon or moves so any strategy can be used 

2 

 If you make one mistake it can cost you the entire match. 

3 tbh I love how no one else does doubles

4 matches are faster than a regular OU or UU match

[Conscious]

I ll be more interested to do comp double 4 vs 4 instead of 6 vs 6. Double 6 vs 6 sometimes incredibly long and boring especially both team using walls like Dusclops, etc.

[DrCraig]

I ll be more interested to do comp double 4 vs 4 instead of 6 vs 6. Double 6 vs 6 sometimes incredibly long and boring especially both team using walls like Dusclops, etc.

Yea, you clearly have not been reading anything on this thread or have not spectated any legitimate battles. 4v4 Doubles? Wat.

[Conscious]

Really ? I already spectated double tourney a lot and i almost fell asleep.