[UU Discussion] Houndoom (Remains UU)

[NikhilR]

 

 

Preferred Moveset:

 

Pursuit

Crunch

Flamethrower

Destiny Bond

 

Ahem, now before anyone is like "wtf, houndoom is not that op" I'd like to just share my views on it. Dark and Fire typing is a pretty great combo for a pokemon like Houndoom. This makes it a pretty great mixed attacker along with its nice speed. It allows it to switch into so many psychics like Hypno, Xatu, Grumpig and ghosts like Misdreavus and pursuit kill them or crunch them. A stab version of this hurts a lot more. The fire typing allows signal beam to not do much to it. 

 

The access to Destiny Bond+Pursuit is another combo to consider. May be it isn't as broken as Wynaut, but it's not the same as Haunter either. WIth haunter you have the ability to switch in and out to scout the db or to pp waste it but this doesn't happen with houndoom. Either you hit it with DB and you die which seems to be the best way to take out tanks or if the switch can be predicted, pursuit will just do a lot of damage on you.

 

Personally I think Houndoom is a very guaranteed way of taking out psychic/ghost types unlike other pokemon like swellow considering the fact that if the user stays in on a pursuit, it can't ohko the houndoom user back which allows a bad prediction to go unpunished. 

 

I don't think this is healthy for a UU meta where we used to see a lot of psychic types often and most people like myself second guess about running a psychic/ghost type in a team if the opponent has a houndoom. 

 

(sorry cathbrah, I still hope you love me)

Edited April 2, 2015 by NikhilR

[DoubleJ]

Idk man. I just don't know.

[Gunthug]

Offensive, Defensive, or Support?

[fredrichnietze]

@gun

Personally I think Houndoom is a very guaranteed way of taking out psychic/ghost types unlike other pokemon like swellow considering the fact that if the user stays in on a pursuit, it can't ohko the houndoom user back which allows a bad prediction to go unpunished. 

 

I don't think this is healthy for a UU meta where we used to see a lot of psychic types often and most people like myself second guess about running a psychic/ghost type in a team if the opponent has a houndoom. 

this is support.

 

and 2 things need to bee proven here.

1 houndoom can come in vs these pokemon and kill them at a high enough percentage

 

2 this support gives one player a unfair advantage over the other player and allows a strategy that gives a much greater chance at winning the match barring hax.

 

is trapping uncompetitive? yea. can doom trap? yes. can dooms trapping support a team in a way that gives it a greater chance at winning then every other team? i dont think so?

 

nik how does dooms support?

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

[NikhilR]

Idk man. I just don't know.

 

Well for now it's just discussion.

 

Offensive, Defensive, or Support?

 

Support, sorry for not mentioning it in the OP. Some tier council member I am :P

 

@gun

this is support.

 

and 2 things need to bee proven here.

1 houndoom can come in vs these pokemon and kill them at a high enough percentage

 

2 this support gives one player a unfair advantage over the other player and allows a strategy that gives a much greater chance at winning the match barring hax.

 

is trapping uncompetitive? yea. can doom trap? yes. can dooms trapping support a team in a way that gives it a greater chance at winning then every other team? i dont think so?

 

nik how does dooms support?

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

 

+1 252 SpA Xatu Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 41-49 (27.3 - 32.6%) -- 76.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 72-86 (51.4 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

+1 0 SpA Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 56-67 (37.3 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Misdreavus: 54-66 (32.3 - 39.5%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO

 

 

We earlier had hariyama whose main counter was Hypno and when paired with Houndoom it helped Hariyama sweep. Now it could help Breloom. Houndoom also prevents spin blocking since imo Misdreavus is one our best spin blockers. Destiny bond can eliminate anything slower than it and this could be selective which could allow something to sweep, for eg if gligar gets db'd most eq banders can sweep, if a bulky water type gets db'd, omastar can have a field day.

[OrangeManiac]

I really cannot say Houndoom can "constantly set up" that situation. Pursuit still needs prediction. I'm aware CB Pursuit will do a lot of damage especially on Xatu and Haunter, for instance but other Pokemon could basically just stay in and HP something the Houndoom. Meanwhile Xatu and Haunter could run a HP for Houndoom while they are at speed tie. The Pursuit isn't pretty much ever a sure shot to me, unlike let's say SubVersal Dugtrio back in the day.


Offensively Houndoom is a threat, yes. SunnyBeam set is powerful. Porygon2 will wall it if Houndoom is Flash Fire but obviously it perhaps shouldn't be Flash Fire if P2 ends up being one of its main counter.

 

252 SpA Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine in Sun: 39-46 (22.6 - 26.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Houndoom SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 35-42 (20.3 - 24.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Sun: 105-124 (51.9 - 61.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

252 SpA Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon in Sun: 82-97 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

 

Mantine is arguebly the best counter and perhaps the only one. Clefable won't suffice and Umbreon can only stall out the Sun while there isn't much it can actually do. I really couldn't come up with anything to stop SunnyBeam. I know SunnyBeam requires the Sunny Day prediction so you could say "without prediction a lot of water types work." Houndoom can obviously be HP Grass, though. A major issue for Houndoom is that it isn't exactly the fastest thing out there so it cannot "reliably sweep" stuff and is kinda defensively paper. A lot of Pokemon can revenge kill or at least make something die in this hyper offensive meta.

TL;DR I'd say you could argue Houndoom fits being offensively too OP but Pursuit being too good of a supporter is something I really don't agree with the prediction nature of it.
 

Edited April 2, 2015 by OrangeManiac

[GBush]

I'm just on my cell phone so not too many calcs at the moment.

Just wanted to put point out some other counters to the sunny day set. And things with flash fire.

252 SpA Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel in Sun: 43-51 (22.9 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Houndoom SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tentacruel: 39-47 (20.8 - 25.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery


252 SpA Houndoom SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ninetales: 22-26 (12.2 - 14.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever


252 SpA Houndoom SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 21-25 (12.2 - 14.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

252 SpA Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chansey in Sun: 132-156 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chansey in Sun: 94-112 (26.3 - 31.3%) -- 19% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Edited April 2, 2015 by GBush

[NikhilR]

@ Orange and GBush, I don't think we're discussing the sunny day set since it falls under offense. It's the support characteristic under which I want to ban it. Xatu has access to almost all the moves and so it need not run a hp for houndoom.

 

And Hariyama has got the ban hammer.

[OrangeManiac]

And Hariyama has got the ban hammer.

 

 

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Fixed post.

[felix]

Mantine is arguebly the best counter and perhaps the only one. 

 

252 Atk Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mantine: 72-85 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

not sure about that, mantine can wall the special sunny day version, but the most common is the mixed, so crunch will do a nice chunk of damage, that can be used to any 252 hp/spdef version in calcs, while they stops fire blasts mostly of them can't take crunch very well.

[OldKeith]

I would not really go ahead and list Houndoom counters since one of its main roles is to trap. A trapper does not have counters. Speed tying Xatu and Haunter is another thing making it incredibly strong. I think it is too much for UU.

[NikhilR]

I would not really go ahead and list Houndoom counters since one of its main roles is to trap. A trapper does not have counters. Speed tying Xatu and Haunter is another thing making it incredibly strong. I think it is too much for UU.

 

Keith if I haven't said it ever, I love how you and I think alike and agree on almost everything :)

[fredrichnietze]

I would not really go ahead and list Houndoom counters since one of its main roles is to trap. A trapper does not have counters. Speed tying Xatu and Haunter is another thing making it incredibly strong. I think it is too much for UU.

i agree that since it is a trapper it's counters are irrelevant unless they are also trappers, except as a argument for dooms viability beyond it's trapper role. 

 

and for the support argument, it only works if all of the fighting types counters are ghost/psychic that die to pursuit. altaria, gligar, slowking, quagsire, shuckle, vileplume, defensive crobat, defensive scizor, and claydol all have a answer for pursuit trap doom + can wall breloom to one degree or another. they all have to worry about sleep, sleep clause exist.

alt can EQ doom

gligar can EQ doom

slowking can surf doom and live a pursuit

quagsire can waterfall/eq doom

shuck can toxic + just not die

vile can s bomb on switch and takes minimal damage from pursuit

crobat can sbomb doom and takes minimal damage from pursuit

scizor can super power + takes minimal damage from pursuit

claydol can eq and isnt forced to switch by doom.

 

the point is. doom pursuit support + fight type team isnt overpowered because their are other options then bulky ghost/psychic's to deal with breloom (no more hary) and hitmon. if you use a bulky gost/psychic>something else you run that risk. but the doom user has to worry about his opponent running no ghost/psychic's and doom not being useful to the team.

[Senile]

i agree that since it is a trapper it's counters are irrelevant unless they are also trappers, except as a argument for dooms viability beyond it's trapper role. 

 

and for the support argument, it only works if all of the fighting types counters are ghost/psychic that die to pursuit. altaria, gligar, slowking, quagsire, shuckle, vileplume, defensive crobat, defensive scizor, and claydol all have a answer for pursuit trap doom + can wall breloom to one degree or another. they all have to worry about sleep, sleep clause exist.

alt can EQ doom

gligar can EQ doom

slowking can surf doom and live a pursuit

quagsire can waterfall/eq doom

shuck can toxic + just not die

vile can s bomb on switch and takes minimal damage from pursuit

crobat can sbomb doom and takes minimal damage from pursuit

scizor can super power + takes minimal damage from pursuit

claydol can eq and isnt forced to switch by doom.

 

the point is. doom pursuit support + fight type team isnt overpowered because their are other options then bulky ghost/psychic's to deal with breloom (no more hary) and hitmon. if you use a bulky gost/psychic>something else you run that risk. but the doom user has to worry about his opponent running no ghost/psychic's and doom not being useful to the team.

Fred's basically got it. You can't really argue it's ban under "Support Characteristic", because it's not actually THAT good of a supporter.

 

"Well it's uncompetitive then!"; It's a fucking pursuit trapper lmao. It can basically trap 2 types of pokemon pretty well, and can kinda do some other stuff beyond that. It's much more like a Magneton than it is like Dugtrio, so let's not try the uncompetitive angle; That's just a way to try to weasel in an argument for a ban because it's not strong enough to warrant a Support Characteristic ban. Plus, it needs to waste a moveslot on Pursuit, which is garbage outside of trapping. Yeah, Houndoom's entire purpose is to trap, but that doesn't make Pursuit any less useless outside of trapping situations.

 

So, what's left to argue then? You can try and say it's unhealthy, but good god damn luck with that. Last I checked, Houndoom isn't taking the meta by storm or anything like that. A pokemon that's "Unhealthy" to the point of being problematic is the kind of shit you see topping usage stats, completely dominating teambuilding, and just generally being a lime cunt. As for Houndoom, well, I can't see it going up from here; It's old buddy Fat Sumo Man With Big Hands got banned.

 

And ultimately, that's the biggest issue with the argument to ban Houndoom for me. Houndoom is a trapper, and trappers are used to eliminate certain threats. A trapper is only ever as good as the metagame around it lets it be, and the fact is that UU seems anything but stable at the moment. I get the feeling as more and more threats get moved up, Houndoom could become less useful. If Houndoom's fist fighting buddies get moved to BL, then what do you really need Houndoom for? Even if you can argue that Houndoom should be banned, it's a pokemon that's so dependent on what the metagame around it looks like that it's the type of thing which should only really be banned once we sort out all the other shit.

 

TL;DR: Houndoom isn't good enough at supporting to be banned under Support Characteristic, trying to ban it under "Uncompetitiveness" is a fancy way of sidestepping the prior point, and trying to argue that Houndoom is unhealthy is a fruitless endeavor. Even if none of the prior things were true, Houndoom is a pokemon which inherently lends itself to being observed as opposed to banned in the current environment, due to how dependent it's success is on the metagame around it, and the relative instability of UU.

[NikhilR]

i agree that since it is a trapper it's counters are irrelevant unless they are also trappers, except as a argument for dooms viability beyond it's trapper role. 

 

and for the support argument, it only works if all of the fighting types counters are ghost/psychic that die to pursuit. altaria, gligar, slowking, quagsire, shuckle, vileplume, defensive crobat, defensive scizor, and claydol all have a answer for pursuit trap doom + can wall breloom to one degree or another. they all have to worry about sleep, sleep clause exist.

alt can EQ doom

gligar can EQ doom

slowking can surf doom and live a pursuit

quagsire can waterfall/eq doom

shuck can toxic + just not die

vile can s bomb on switch and takes minimal damage from pursuit

crobat can sbomb doom and takes minimal damage from pursuit

scizor can super power + takes minimal damage from pursuit

claydol can eq and isnt forced to switch by doom.

 

the point is. doom pursuit support + fight type team isnt overpowered because their are other options then bulky ghost/psychic's to deal with breloom (no more hary) and hitmon. if you use a bulky gost/psychic>something else you run that risk. but the doom user has to worry about his opponent running no ghost/psychic's and doom not being useful to the team.

 

With access to now ele punches, most fighting types can kill altaria / gligar. Breloom can spore any of the above switch ins, wait for a sub and hit, Then spore and repeat. Altaria is a terrible, terrible pokemon to run because of its lack of offense. I hardly see quagsire as a pokemon that threatens breloom out. Resorting to things like shuckle, defensive bat, scizor are kind of extreme don't you think? In this case houndoom barely needs to be used because none of the pokemon you've mentioned are true psychic counters whereas hypno/misdreavus are true counters to fighting types with access to wish or painsplit for recovery. Running 2-3 pokemon to cover for loom itself is bad imo. 

 

All you've done is mention not proper counters to fighting types that can't be trapped by houndoom. And assuming that the pokemon you've mentioned are real counters, houndoom can destiny bond any of these counters thus allowing your fighting type more freedom to sweep. And again, this isn't limited to just fighting types. I think misdreavus/sableye do a decent job of switching into things like swellow/zangoose/stantler so this isn't just about fighting types anymore. 

 

Doom will always find a use in the team because flamethrower is bound to hit steelix which is seen on so many teams and DB gets it a free kill. So having a psychic ghost user can be considered as an extra bonus.

 

Fred's basically got it. You can't really argue it's ban under "Support Characteristic", because it's not actually THAT good of a supporter.

 

"Well it's uncompetitive then!"; It's a fucking pursuit trapper lmao. It can basically trap 2 types of pokemon pretty well, and can kinda do some other stuff beyond that. It's much more like a Magneton than it is like Dugtrio, so let's not try the uncompetitive angle; That's just a way to try to weasel in an argument for a ban because it's not strong enough to warrant a Support Characteristic ban. Plus, it needs to waste a moveslot on Pursuit, which is garbage outside of trapping. Yeah, Houndoom's entire purpose is to trap, but that doesn't make Pursuit any less useless outside of trapping situations.

 

So, what's left to argue then? You can try and say it's unhealthy, but good god damn luck with that. Last I checked, Houndoom isn't taking the meta by storm or anything like that. A pokemon that's "Unhealthy" to the point of being problematic is the kind of shit you see topping usage stats, completely dominating teambuilding, and just generally being a lime uguu. As for Houndoom, well, I can't see it going up from here; It's old buddy Fat Sumo Man With Big Hands got banned.

 

And ultimately, that's the biggest issue with the argument to ban Houndoom for me. Houndoom is a trapper, and trappers are used to eliminate certain threats. A trapper is only ever as good as the metagame around it lets it be, and the fact is that UU seems anything but stable at the moment. I get the feeling as more and more threats get moved up, Houndoom could become less useful. If Houndoom's fist fighting buddies get moved to BL, then what do you really need Houndoom for? Even if you can argue that Houndoom should be banned, it's a pokemon that's so dependent on what the metagame around it looks like that it's the type of thing which should only really be banned once we sort out all the other shit.

 

TL;DR: Houndoom isn't good enough at supporting to be banned under Support Characteristic, trying to ban it under "Uncompetitiveness" is a fancy way of sidestepping the prior point, and trying to argue that Houndoom is unhealthy is a fruitless endeavor. Even if none of the prior things were true, Houndoom is a pokemon which inherently lends itself to being observed as opposed to banned in the current environment, due to how dependent it's success is on the metagame around it, and the relative instability of UU.

 

It's definitely in between magneton / dugtrio. Anything apart from steel can freely switch out from magneton without have to worrying much and can hit back freely whereas with Houndoom it has the options of running DB or Pursuit. The whole purpose of using Pursuit is to trap so there shouldn't be any other reasons. When you have the options to do Pursuit+Crunch, it makes matters complicated because you either stay in to get less damage and then get ohko'd by crunch or you switch out and definitely get ohko'd. 

 

In UU we have very few pokemon that can outspeed houndoom and are viable. The main names that come to mind are Tentacruel, Manectric and Swellow. Fearow is terrible now because we have swellow, Tenta is bad now because of lack of physical sbomb which makes it possible to only have 2 proper switch ins to houndoom to force it out safely. 

[flavajabari]

In UU we have very few pokemon that can outspeed houndoom and are viable. The main names that come to mind are Tentacruel, Manectric and Swellow. Fearow is terrible now because we have swellow, Tenta is bad now because of lack of physical sbomb which makes it possible to only have 2 proper switch ins to houndoom to force it out safely. 

 

i wouldn't say tenta is bad now though, its still viable as ever, regardless of phys sludgebomb.

[ThinkNice]

I don't think all Houndoom does is trap. I see it as the Gengar of UU, has very good offensive typing and it even gives him a few very useable resistances. It has pretty good speed for UU, speedties with things like Xatu and Haunter, which means these two can't run HP Fighting to give better coverage than >HP Water.

 

Not only is it a threat offensively but I see it more as an amazing support Pokémon. With access Will -o Wisp, Taunt and Destiny Bond. Which are all great supporting moves. Although I don't agree with Nik saying DB is a guaranteed kill, because this is just untrue and seems more like some 'throwin sloppy argument here' thingy. It is really powerful though and it can go from Offensive Trapper to SunnyBeamer to Stallbreaker, and they should all be handled differently. I can see why it is so good. I think his supportive sets are a bit too much though when paired with his 95 base speed, Will -o Wisp, DB, Taunt, Pursuit are all amazing moves when used right. It fits both offensive and defensive teams.

 

If it would be banned it would be banned under supportive characteristics and his unpredictability.

[NikhilR]

I don't think all Houndoom does is trap. I see it as the Gengar of UU, has very good offensive typing and it even gives him a few very useable resistances. It has pretty good speed for UU, speedties with things like Xatu and Haunter, which means these two can't run HP Fighting to give better coverage than >HP Water.

 

Not only is it a threat offensively but I see it more as an amazing support Pokémon. With access Will -o Wisp, Taunt and Destiny Bond. Which are all great supporting moves. Although I don't agree with Nik saying DB is a guaranteed kill, because this is just untrue and seems more like some 'throwin sloppy argument here' thingy. It is really powerful though and it can go from Offensive Trapper to SunnyBeamer to Stallbreaker, and they should all be handled differently. I can see why it is so good. I think his supportive sets are a bit too much though when paired with his 95 base speed, Will -o Wisp, DB, Taunt, Pursuit are all amazing moves when used right. It fits both offensive and defensive teams.

 

If it would be banned it would be banned under supportive characteristics and his unpredictability.

 

By db being a guaranteed kill, I meant that the pokemon we generally switch into a houndoom usually ko's it so you can't even scout for the db. And even if you know it has DB, you're still helpless. But if you still disagree with it then that's fair.

 

But you listed out some other powerful sets like wow/taunt/db. Superfang is also a very nice option to break down walls.

Edited April 3, 2015 by NikhilR

[Pedrr]

who wanna use houndoom in OU?

ty

[Gunthug]

who wanna use houndoom in OU?
ty

A poke's viability in another tier doesn't matter for teiring discussions. Focus on how it is in UU

[NikhilR]

who wanna use houndoom in OU?

ty

 

People like you are the reason why we can't have nice discussion threads.

 

If a pokemon is too strong for a current tier, it will be moved up. Do you see people using Hariyama/Machamp/Marowak in OU nowadays? ty

[BurntZebra]

People like you are the reason why we can't have nice discussion threads.

 

If a pokemon is too strong for a current tier, it will be moved up. Do you see people using Hariyama/Machamp/Marowak in OU nowadays? ty

I think he was saying that people should use houndoom in OU so it gets moved up from UU by usage.

[Gunthug]

I think he was saying that people should use houndoom in OU so it gets moved up from UU by usage.

Oh, lel that makes more sense

[Pedrr]

People like you are the reason why we can't have nice discussion threads.

 

If a pokemon is too strong for a current tier, it will be moved up. Do you see people using Hariyama/Machamp/Marowak in OU nowadays? ty

i meant houndoom is useless in OU cause RK9 replace him

[BurntZebra]

 

i meant houndoom is useless in OU cause RK9 replace him

Oh, lel that makes more sense

well I tried