[UU Discussion] Houndoom (Remains UU)

[ThinkNice]

I don't see how the banning of Scizor and Slowking and the discussion about Houndoom are related.

[Archinix]

I don't see how the banning of Scizor and Slowking and the discussion about Houndoom are related.

Neither did I, but reading through, they were brought up so might as well include it

[ThinkNice]

no

[DoubleJ]

Houndoom's viability actually drops a tad with scizor and slowking gone, both of which doom was a decent check and reliable revenge killer of.

Although without scizor, sunnybeam usage may go up and this means fire-types could see more burn.

Still don't see doom as ban worthy.

[BurntZebra]

Houndoom's viability actually drops a tad with scizor and slowking gone, both of which doom was a decent check and reliable revenge killer of.

Although without scizor, sunnybeam usage may go up and this means fire-types could see more burn.

Still don't see doom as ban worthy.

Not really. Slowking was a counter to non cb houndoom. Now only chansey handles stab fire+solarbeam in sun

[DrCraig]

Not really. Slowking was a counter to non cb houndoom. Now only chansey handles stab fire+solarbeam in sun

Hey mister specifically specific pants he said "decent check" and "revenge killer" which implies houndoom can do work when king is hurtin

and flareon can handle fire/beam mr. specifically specific pants

and porygons that trace flash fire, but is that too specifically specific?

[Gunthug]

Hey mister specifically specific pants he said "decent check" and "revenge killer" which implies houndoom can do work when king is hurtin
and flareon can handle fire/beam mr. specifically specific pants
and porygons that trace flash fire, but is that too specifically specific?

Invested tenta can handle it too, especially if mirror coat

[Kizhaz]

And Mantine for that matter

[YagamiNoir]

Funny how Pursuit and Crunch is never added to the equation now when it's one of two most significant moves that make Houndoom good at what it does which is to Pursuit trap squishies.

 

It generally isn't banworthy apart from the fact that "Oh snap he killed my Psychic/Ghost type, now something's gonna rekt me because I lose this thing!" Especially considering Houndoom doesn't usually run CB, predicting Pursuit traps can be rewarding to the player against the Houndoom especially if they carry a particular Hidden Power and stuff, since it's not all that powerful anyway. Destiny Bond hype is overridden by how priority *cough* Hitmonlee/Hitmontop/Breloom* can just flat out kill it although the lattermost can't switch in, and an offensive Fire type isn't something that should bring a lot of problems to UU. If anything, Fire types balance the omnipresent Steelix and Vileplume, the latter of which Houndoom kinda checks pretty well with Early Bird (if some want to risk sleep, I guess) Taunt and a Fire move. I mean, we have Ninetales, which with Calm Mind can debatably at least be on par with this thing, except it also has more bulk sometimes as well, in regards to the whole "nothing beats SunnyBeam apart from Chansey" thing. SunnyBeam really shouldn't be that overhyped, not should anyone complain it to be banworthy for that matter. 

 

It still gets a few nice tricks, though. SubReversal for the lulz, gg no re Chansey/Porygon2.

 

+1 Houndoom Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252/148+ Porygon2: 227-268 (118.2 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

EDIT: To Zebra: "Not really. Slowking was a counter to non cb houndoom. Now only chansey handles stab fire+solarbeam in sun"

 

252 Atk Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 90-108 (44.5 - 53.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

This is still pretty close and that's ignoring the 20% Defense drop chance, for that matter. Slowking can OHKO back but "counter" is exaggerated. 

Edited May 6, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[Archinix]

Alrighty, most people think the side I favour on this topic but Fred won't listen to me unless I post, so.

 

First I'll mention the moves:

 

Destiny Bond

Flamethrower/Fire Blast

Endure

Reversal

Pursuit

Crunch

Super Fang

Taunt

Hidden Power Ground or w/e

Sunnyday

Solarbeam

 

Current UU Usage

 

As you can see in the link above, there isn't much currently outspeeding houndoom besides Manectric, Tentacruel, Gligar (Jolly Gligar, not +Speed Doom), which is meaning when you finally are able to kill it, it can use Destiny Bond, gg free kill.

 

----------

 

Next, with Psychics/Ghost types being the best check to Hitmonlees Superpower. Once that happens, bring in your Houndoom and Pursuit on switch, or Crunch, or Shadow Ball:

 

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xatu: 104-126 (60.4 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hypno: 104-126 (54.1 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Misdreavus: 116-138 (69.4 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Claydol: 84-98 (50.2 - 58.6%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yes, Claydol can take a Crunch/Shadow Ball

0 SpA Houndoom Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Claydol: 56-68 (33.5 - 40.7%) -- 38% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Claydol Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Houndoom: 162-192 (108 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But keep in mind, this now leaves Claydol wide open for Lee to Superpower away.

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 96-114 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Girafarig: 110-132 (62.1 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Grumpig: 110-132 (58.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

If they stay in Crunch will do the same damage.

 

You could say Porygon2 stops this and the SunnyBeam, yet it can't beat the Endursal, as Yagami posted above.

Walrein?

+1 252+ Atk Houndoom Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 226-268 (104.1 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Houndoom SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Walrein: 108-128 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I know I'm missing more SunnyBeam/Reversal set calcs, but I have to do some things before work. I'll hopefully get to it tomorrow. (sorry)

Pretty much mispredict the set, and this can put a major whole in your team.

[karimologia]

 

Alrighty, most people think the side I favour on this topic but Fred won't listen to me unless I post, so.

 

First I'll mention the moves:

 

Destiny Bond

Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Overheat

Endure

Reversal

Pursuit

Crunch

Super Fang

Taunt

Hidden Power Ground or w/e

Sunnyday

Solarbeam

 

Current UU Usage

 

As you can see in the link above, there isn't much currently outspeeding houndoom besides Manectric, Tentacruel, Gligar (Jolly Gligar, not +Speed Doom), which is meaning when you finally are able to kill it, it can use Destiny Bond, gg free kill.

 

----------

 

Next, with Psychics/Ghost types being the best check to Hitmonlees Superpower. Once that happens, bring in your Houndoom and Pursuit on switch, or Crunch, or Shadow Ball:

 

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xatu: 104-126 (60.4 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hypno: 104-126 (54.1 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Misdreavus: 116-138 (69.4 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Claydol: 84-98 (50.2 - 58.6%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yes, Claydol can take a Crunch/Shadow Ball

0 SpA Houndoom Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Claydol: 56-68 (33.5 - 40.7%) -- 38% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Claydol Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Houndoom: 162-192 (108 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But keep in mind, this now leaves Claydol wide open for Lee to Superpower away.

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 96-114 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Girafarig: 110-132 (62.1 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Grumpig: 110-132 (58.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

If they stay in Crunch will do the same damage.

 

You could say Porygon2 stops this and the SunnyBeam, yet it can't beat the Endursal, as Yagami posted above.

Walrein?

+1 252+ Atk Houndoom Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 226-268 (104.1 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Houndoom SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Walrein: 108-128 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I know I'm missing more SunnyBeam/Reversal set calcs, but I have to do some things before work. I'll hopefully get to it tomorrow. (sorry)

Pretty much mispredict the set, and this can put a major whole in your team.

 

Its versatility makes Houndoom hard to handle it, even with those calcs add a little bit of rng and gg... i could try to run Walrein but reversal set + too many Superpower users make it no so viable.

#BanHoundoom

[YagamiNoir]

 

Alrighty, most people think the side I favour on this topic but Fred won't listen to me unless I post, so.

 

First I'll mention the moves:

 

Destiny Bond

Flamethrower/Fire Blast

Endure

Reversal

Pursuit

Crunch

Super Fang

Taunt

Hidden Power Ground or w/e

Sunnyday

Solarbeam

 

Current UU Usage

 

As you can see in the link above, there isn't much currently outspeeding houndoom besides Manectric, Tentacruel, Gligar (Jolly Gligar, not +Speed Doom), which is meaning when you finally are able to kill it, it can use Destiny Bond, gg free kill.

 

----------

 

Next, with Psychics/Ghost types being the best check to Hitmonlees Superpower. Once that happens, bring in your Houndoom and Pursuit on switch, or Crunch, or Shadow Ball:

 

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xatu: 104-126 (60.4 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hypno: 104-126 (54.1 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Misdreavus: 116-138 (69.4 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Claydol: 84-98 (50.2 - 58.6%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yes, Claydol can take a Crunch/Shadow Ball

0 SpA Houndoom Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Claydol: 56-68 (33.5 - 40.7%) -- 38% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Claydol Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Houndoom: 162-192 (108 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO

But keep in mind, this now leaves Claydol wide open for Lee to Superpower away.

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Exeggutor: 96-114 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Girafarig: 110-132 (62.1 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Houndoom Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Grumpig: 110-132 (58.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

If they stay in Crunch will do the same damage.

 

You could say Porygon2 stops this and the SunnyBeam, yet it can't beat the Endursal, as Yagami posted above.

Walrein?

+1 252+ Atk Houndoom Reversal (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 226-268 (104.1 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Houndoom SolarBeam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Walrein: 108-128 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I know I'm missing more SunnyBeam/Reversal set calcs, but I have to do some things before work. I'll hopefully get to it tomorrow. (sorry)

Pretty much mispredict the set, and this can put a major whole in your team.

 

Don't see how it's easy to mispredict against a Houndoom, in some cases, at least. 

 

Houndoom needs to reveal Sunny Day to pull off SunnyBeam, unless you're talking about sun support from an ally, so you can't say you'll actually mispredict over there. That's also 3 moves you're getting to know. Liechi Boost and continuous Sub spam can also be a dead giveaway it's Reversal too, and even if it isn't, some Petaya set isn't that broken either. Houndoom's sets are...dedicative, for lack of a better term, they are things that are paired specifically to be useful instead of things that can be thrown around here and there in the case of SunnyBeam/Reversal. It should never be too late to actually respond to these, although it makes some counters ineffective. 

 

The only situation that is nasty is the whole Pursuit/Crunch bit, and I suppose Destiny Bond, but people really need to get over that thing. Not to offend the creator of the separate thread being Raiddn, but the discussion itself back then was pretty stupid as it is. Taunt screws Toxic, but Houndoom has thick 4MSS. It can't run one set and get away with it, noting that without Taunt or Sub stuff like Clefable and other reasonably bulky wall can just Toxic it to avoid death through DBond when you manage to drive it into a corner, and with Taunt/DBond, you lose a portion of coverage.  This is probably just a case of UU Gengar overhype. 

 

Claydol can always set up Reflect first or when predicting the switch if it has it, and if Claydol can kill Houndoom, don't expect to justify that Claydol is Pursuit prey. "If they stay in, they do the same damage." So, would you rather not do anything and get free damage or get either the same damage or far less depending on prediction while being able to pull something off? Like I said above, predicting Pursuit can backfire on the Houndoom user since you won't be able to do as much and if they have something to do to you you're screwed up. Apparently priority is also irrelevant now for some reason. 

 

I'd talk more, but like you Archi, busy. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[ThinkNice]

Its versatility makes Houndoom hard to handle it, even with those calcs add a little bit of rng and gg... i could try to run Walrein but reversal set + too many Superpower users make it no so viable.

#BanHoundoom

No, it doesn't matter how versatile it is, it still gets popped by the most common priority in the tier; Mach Punch. A Careful Hitmontop shits on any set this guy got.

4 Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 78-92 (52 - 61.3%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hitmontop in Sun: 93-111 (59.2 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

So, it first needs to set up Sun in which case Hitmontop switches in and then it can get hit by two Mach Punches so Hitmontop wins. CB Hitmonlee can come in on a Sunny Day and completely ruin Doom's day. Fire types like Flareon and Ninetailes don't care, they are specially bulky too so even HP Rock wouldn't do enough

252 SpA Houndoom Hidden Power Rock vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales: 72-86 (40 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Flareon Body Slam vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 69-82 (46 - 54.6%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Houndoom Hidden Power Rock vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Flareon: 52-62 (30.2 - 36%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

The best set Flareon can run in this meta is most likely Wish support to keep Houndoom and Exeggutor at bay. Houndoom isn't so threatening at all. His Sunnybeam set can't sweep reliably and his Trap set only works for one thing and even then Hitmonlee is no where near guaranteed a sweep. Let's not talk like Reversal is something to fear with Mach Punches and QA's being viable in the tier, as well as Encore.

 

I can see that Houndoom can be extremely effective against Stall, but it is mediocre against any other playstyle. His resistances are only handy against Stall that rely heavily on their bulky Grass and Psychic types, while it struggles coming in on anything else.

[NikhilR]

No, it doesn't matter how versatile it is, it still gets popped by the most common priority in the tier; Mach Punch. A Careful Hitmontop shits on any set this guy got.

4 Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Houndoom: 78-92 (52 - 61.3%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hitmontop in Sun: 93-111 (59.2 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

Hitmontop is pretty bad in UU atm. Gets shit on by so many pokemon like Claydol, Gligar, Vileplume, Exeggcutor etc.

[ThinkNice]

Hitmontop is pretty bad in UU atm. Gets shit on by so many pokemon like Claydol, Gligar, Vileplume, Exeggcutor etc.

Implying Careful Hitmontop wouldn't run Toxic to hit Claydol or Egg. Hitmontop can effectively cripple them all except Vileplume. A set like Spin/Toxic/RS/Mach can be pretty effective making it capable of revenging Houndoom, Zangoose and even a weakened Swellow as those are all Pokémon that stall would have a lot of trouble with. Anyway, even without Hitmontop there is too much that stops Houndoom from effectively sweeping, even moreso when the most common physical attacker is Lee.

[NikhilR]

Implying Careful Hitmontop wouldn't run Toxic to hit Claydol or Egg. Hitmontop can effectively cripple them all except Vileplume. A set like Spin/Toxic/RS/Mach can be pretty effective making it capable of revenging Houndoom, Zangoose and even a weakened Swellow as those are all Pokémon that stall would have a lot of trouble with. Anyway, even without Hitmontop there is too much that stops Houndoom from effectively sweeping, even moreso when the most common physical attacker is Lee.

 

Running toxic to hit Claydol or Egg isn't the same as crippling them because none of your attacks can even dent it. The set you've mentioned is quite nice though but hitmontop's lack of recovery is what makes a bad "wall" . 

 

I agree with Houndoom not being able to sweep because I think we have enough walls to stop Doom from sweeping but I would really prefer to see it banned under the support characteristic, mainly because of pursuit+db. 

 

---------------------------------------

 

Most of us would run a wall to counter a specific pokemon, like exegg/claydol for lee, vileplume for quagsire, kingler and many more. The fact that Houndoom can take out all of these walls either with its stab attacks or with db makes it scary, especially when you have a lack of sufficient counters for these offensive pokes. Under the support characteristic, I wish it gets banned.  

[ThinkNice]

Most of us would run a wall to counter a specific pokemon, like exegg/claydol for lee, vileplume for quagsire, kingler and many more. The fact that Houndoom can take out all of these walls either with its stab attacks or with db makes it scary, especially when you have a lack of sufficient counters for these offensive pokes. Under the support characteristic, I wish it gets banned.  

 

I can see that Houndoom can be extremely effective against Stall, but it is mediocre against any other playstyle. His resistances are only handy against Stall that rely heavily on their bulky Grass and Psychic types, while it struggles coming in on anything else.

 

Maybe the 'most of you' should try out some different playstyles, because really UU offers way more than what you guys are doing right now. I have made a post on this before but the thoughts of most top UU players are very stagnant and only think of the walling aspect of the game, while Pokémon is much more than that. Stall is a powerful playstyle, so of course there will be some Pokémon that can punish you from using it, just like how Magneton can punish you for using the best defensive wall in the game.

[karimologia]

Maybe the 'most of you' should try out some different playstyles, because really UU offers way more than what you guys are doing right now. I have made a post on this before but the thoughts of most top UU players are very stagnant and only think of the walling aspect of the game, while Pokémon is much more than that. Stall is a powerful playstyle, so of course there will be some Pokémon that can punish you from using it, just like how Magneton can punish you for using the best defensive wall in the game.

Houndoom is broken like it or not, so it will be banned in 1 or 2 weeks, keep this post. Then you'll be quiet.

[NikhilR]

Maybe the 'most of you' should try out some different playstyles, because really UU offers way more than what you guys are doing right now. I have made a post on this before but the thoughts of most top UU players are very stagnant and only think of the walling aspect of the game, while Pokémon is much more than that. Stall is a powerful playstyle, so of course there will be some Pokémon that can punish you from using it, just like how Magneton can punish you for using the best defensive wall in the game.

 

There's a lot of difference between punishing something for walling and abusing it. For eg Rhydon could set up vs walls like Skarmory/Weezing and punish the opponents but it doesn't do anything vs walls like slowbro/vaporeon. In the previous meta, if Rhydon had the ability to destiny bond vs Vaporeon, I would want it removed because then Dragons could come and wreck a lot of things. Magneton can get trapped by dugtrio or depending on the hidden power, a lot of things can switch in on it and take advantage of it. My point is that your opponent should also be able to punish you for using Houndoom, but at the same time shouldn't be forced to run a particular playstyle just to beat a person having houndoom. The fact that Houndoom has an ability to punish walls like vileplume, steelix, exeggcutor with it's stab attacks but at the same time take out walls that can threaten it is what makes it broken for me. 

[YagamiNoir]

Houndoom is broken like it or not, so it will be banned in 1 or 2 weeks, keep this post. Then you'll be quiet.

Whoah, whoah. The council has no intention of touching anything in UU for the next month or more, like it or not, so you don't know what the hell you're talking about here. Even then no one's gonna take you serious if your only statement goes down to blatant statements. 

 

 

My point is that your opponent should also be able to punish you for using Houndoom, but at the same time shouldn't be forced to run a particular playstyle just to beat a person having houndoom. The fact that Houndoom has an ability to punish walls like vileplume, steelix, exeggcutor with it's stab attacks but at the same time take out walls that can threaten it is what makes it broken for me. 

What justifies that this isn't possible? For oblivion's sake this is the third time I've said this and there are ways to punish a Houndoom, or at least on the Pursuit spectrum anyway. 

 

ings that can be thrown around here and there in the case of SunnyBeam/Reversal. It should never be too late to actually respond to these, although it makes some counters ineffective. 

 

The only situation that is nasty is the whole Pursuit/Crunch bit, and I suppose Destiny Bond, but people really need to get over that thing. Not to offend the creator of the separate thread being Raiddn, but the discussion itself back then was pretty stupid as it is. Taunt screws Toxic, but Houndoom has thick 4MSS. It can't run one set and get away with it, noting that without Taunt or Sub stuff like Clefable and other reasonably bulky wall can just Toxic it to avoid death through DBond when you manage to drive it into a corner, and with Taunt/DBond, you lose a portion of coverage, and most of these Toxic users are things that a standard Houndoom can't usually really break.  This is probably just a case of UU Gengar overhype. 

 

Claydol can always set up Reflect first or when predicting the switch if it has it, and if Claydol can kill Houndoom, don't expect to justify that Claydol is Pursuit prey. "If they stay in, they do the same damage." So, would you rather not do anything and get free damage or get either the same damage or far less depending on prediction while being able to pull something off? Like I said above, predicting Pursuit can backfire on the Houndoom user since you won't be able to do as much and if they have something to do to you you're screwed up. Apparently priority is also irrelevant now for some reason. 

 

[NikhilR]

Whoah, whoah. The council has no intention of touching anything in UU for the next month or more, like it or not, so you don't know what the hell you're talking about here. Even then no one's gonna take you serious if your only statement goes down to blatant statements. 

 

 

What justifies that this isn't possible? For oblivion's sake this is the third time I've said this and there are ways to punish a Houndoom, or at least on the Pursuit spectrum anyway. 

 

At your quoted part, what makes you think every wall in UU carries toxic for the wall to stall doom to death while it tries to DB? For now the tendency to carry toxic is even more lesser considering slowking is banned. Coverage is a not a problem for a pokemon like doom when its job is to support. This can vary from taking out walls to psychic/ghost types. So depending on the role it is performing, it can sack flame/crunch.

 

If Claydol kills Doom, there goes your main counter to cb donphan / lee.  Obviously a Doom is not going to pursuit on something that can touch it Yagami. Xatu will 2hko Doom at most, Misdreavus 2hkos Doom at most. You're not going to pursuit vs vileplume either incase sbomb gets a poison. 

 

And by punishing a pokemon I mean setting up on and turning the game to your advantage. Name one pokemon that does this for Houndoom.

[YagamiNoir]

At your quoted part, what makes you think every wall in UU carries toxic for the wall to stall doom to death while it tries to DB? For now the tendency to carry toxic is even more lesser considering slowking is banned. Coverage is a not a problem for a pokemon like doom when its job is to support. This can vary from taking out walls to psychic/ghost types. So depending on the role it is performing, it can sack flame/crunch.

 

If Claydol kills Doom, there goes your main counter to cb donphan / lee.  Obviously a Doom is not going to pursuit on something that can touch it Yagami. Xatu will 2hko Doom at most, Misdreavus 2hkos Doom at most. You're not going to pursuit vs vileplume either incase sbomb gets a poison. 

 

And by punishing a pokemon I mean setting up on and turning the game to your advantage. Name one pokemon that does this for Houndoom.

That's debatable on experience, moreso the meta is still in a pretty vague state after the recent bans anyways with little tournaments to justify enough post Scizor/Slowking ban. That or some people just don't adapt, if you see ThinkNice's former quote. One of the ways to deal with Houndoom's exaggeratively broken Destiny Bond lies in a fairly common and largely distributed move called Toxic and you're calling it irrelevant, Taunt aside. 

 

I'm sorry if Reflect seemed invisible to you, but alright. That's not what I'm saying, but heck I think the whole flawless Pursuit trap things is a bit exaggerative, or at least it's not applicable to every Psychic type in UU and the effects aren't as significant as you think it is. It's as if you're forbidden from staying in on a predicted Pursuit to reduce it's damage and it's also as if Houndoom always makes the right predictions for some reason.

 

Again one of your ridiculously demanding aspects to tiering in general apart from something needing a full counter to be not banworthy. Oh wait, it's actually the exact same thing. I'm not going to entertain that, we've looped through so much of that in OU, let's not bring this here as well.  

[NikhilR]

That's debatable on experience, moreso the meta is still in a pretty vague state after the recent bans anyways with little tournaments to justify enough post Scizor/Slowking ban. That or some people just don't adapt, if you see ThinkNice's former quote. One of the ways to deal with Houndoom's exaggeratively broken Destiny Bond lies in a fairly common and largely distributed move called Toxic and you're calling it irrelevant, Taunt aside. 

 

I'm sorry if Reflect seemed invisible to you, but alright. That's not what I'm saying, but heck I think the whole flawless Pursuit trap things is a bit exaggerative, or at least it's not applicable to every Psychic type in UU and the effects aren't as significant as you think it is. It's as if you're forbidden from staying in on a predicted Pursuit to reduce it's damage and it's also as if Houndoom always makes the right predictions for some reason.

 

Again one of your ridiculously demanding aspects to tiering in general apart from something needing a full counter to be not banworthy. Oh wait, it's actually the exact same thing. I'm not going to entertain that, we've looped through so much of that in OU, let's not bring this here as well.  

 

My experience comes from playing a double elim UU tourney after the bans, I think it's pretty much undebateable. The only thing running toxic atm is Chansey and may be you can run it on Houndoom. Again, Toxic is not a fairly and largely distributed move like you're mentioning but hey if you want to run toxic on pokemon that should probably run other moves, be my guest. 

 

I'd like to see your Claydol use Reflect when you're under Taunt. 

 

Thanks for calling one of my demands ridiculous and I'm not here asking for a counter. I'm asking for a pokemon in the UU meta that can punish an opponent who has Houndoom, by setting up and turning the game to his advantage. 

Edited May 7, 2015 by NikhilR

[ThinkNice]

We forgot to mention that Houndoom can run Taunt, Destiny Bond, Flamethrower, Reversal, Subsitute, Pursuit, Crunch, Sunny Day, HP Rock and Solarbeam on the same set.

[NikhilR]

We forgot to mention that Houndoom can run Taunt, Destiny Bond, Flamethrower, Reversal, Subsitute, Pursuit, Crunch, Sunny Day, HP Rock and Solarbeam on the same set.

 

At least now do you see why it needs to banned?

Edited May 7, 2015 by NikhilR