[UU Discussion] Houndoom (Remains UU)

[Gunthug]

i meant houndoom is useless in OU cause RK9 replace him

You shoulda ran with what zebra said lol. Once again, it doesn't matter if doom is useless in OU, that's not a reason to keep him down in UU. In fact, that's what BL is for - pokemon that are too strong for UU, but aren't used enough to be OU

[Pedrr]

for me it isn't really strong, it can be walled easily by blastoise or flareon (why not muk?)

Edited April 3, 2015 by Pedrr

[NikhilR]

for me it isn't really strong, it can be walled easily by blastoise or flareon

 

Destiny Bond on Blastoise. I doubt Flareon can switch in on crunch since it is now physical.

[Robofiend]

Houndoom probably should be banned, its ability to trap checks to fighting/normal spam and rekt walls like Blastoise and Steelix with Destiny Bond or Flamethrower is just plain spooky.

[BurntZebra]

Houndoom probably should be banned, its ability to trap checks to fighting/normal spam and rekt walls like Blastoise and Steelix with Destiny Bond or Flamethrower is just plain spooky.

Well with that logic we should ban stuff like pursuit absol since that eliminates bulky psychics arguably better or anything faster than walls with destiny bond. Not to mention houndoom has trouble switching in on a lot of pokemon and will get ohko'ed by mach punch from hitmonlee if it tries to sweep with a sunnybeam set. And like someone previously mentioned in this thread (on my phone so too lazy to check), many psychic types can run a move to take on houndoom/other dark types, either with focus punch or counter or signal beam. Just don't really see houndoom being banworthy under offense or support

[Robofiend]

Well with that logic we should ban stuff like pursuit absol since that eliminates bulky psychics arguably better or anything faster than walls with destiny bond. Not to mention houndoom has trouble switching in on a lot of pokemon and will get ohko'ed by mach punch from hitmonlee if it tries to sweep with a sunnybeam set. And like someone previously mentioned in this thread (on my phone so too lazy to check), many psychic types can run a move to take on houndoom/other dark types, either with focus punch or counter or signal beam. Just don't really see houndoom being banworthy under offense or support

 

 

Pls, Absol is trash. Here's two reasons Houndoom outclasses Absol:

 

+1 252 SpA Xatu Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 119-141 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

>Xatu can't win unless it has HP Fight or something (impossible to get with current mechanics)

vs.

+1 252 SpA Xatu Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Absol: 296-350 (109.2 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

or

252 SpA Xatu Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Absol: 133-157 (49 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Xatu Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Absol: 200-236 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

>Xatu wins unless it uses Psychic against Absol when it switches in

 

252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Absol: 204-240 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Absol: 90-106 (33.2 - 39.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

>Haunter can win against non-lefties Absol with better than shit tier damage rolls, even if it switches in on Shadow Ball

vs.

252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 72-85 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 162-192 (55.6 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

>Haunter loses unless it Sludge Bombs Doom on the switch

 

TL;DR Houndoom clearly outclasses Absol against offensive threats, especially when you take into account its speed ties with fast sweepers. Absol's great at taking down slower Psychics, but comparably poor bulk is definitely a limitation compared to Houndoom's reasonable special bulk and neutral damage from Bug moves.

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2015 by Robofiend

[BurntZebra]

Pls, Absol is trash. Here's two reasons Houndoom outclasses Absol:

+1 252 SpA Xatu Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 119-141 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
>Xatu can't win unless it has HP Fight or something (impossible to get with current mechanics)
vs.

+1 252 SpA Xatu Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Absol: 296-350 (109.2 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
or
252 SpA Xatu Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Absol: 133-157 (49 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Xatu Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Absol: 200-236 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>Xatu wins unless it uses Psychic against Absol when it switches in

252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Absol: 204-240 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Absol: 90-106 (33.2 - 39.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
>Haunter can win against non-lefties Absol with better than shit tier damage rolls, even if it switches in on Shadow Ball
vs.
252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 72-85 (24.7 - 29.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Haunter Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 162-192 (55.6 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>Haunter loses unless it Sludge Bombs Doom on the switch

TL;DR Houndoom clearly outclasses Absol against offensive threats, especially when you take into account its speed ties with fast sweepers. Absol's great at taking down slower Psychics, but comparably poor bulk is definitely a limitation compared to Houndoom's reasonable special bulk and neutral damage from Bug moves.

Well here's my problem with your argument. You said that houndoom is banworthy because it removes psychic/ghost types that stop fighting/normal spam. I agree with that but then you say absol is inferior to houndoom because houndoom counters xatu/haunter, where absol does not. Xatu and haunter aren't exactly the best counters to normal/fighting types just because they get demolished by any coverage move from hitmonlee/granbull. On the other end of the psychic spectrum is hypno that can take pretty much any hit from hitmonlee and can switch in relatively risk free, with instant recovery, making it the superior choice to countering hitmonlee in comparison to xatu. I'm not really sure where I'm going with this but absol pursuit traps hypno a lot better than houndoom is able to because of raw physical power, is what I'm getting at. Sure houndoom can maybe trap hypno if hypno is damaged and houndoom is choice banded, but otherwise hypno is going to survive a cb pursuit from houndoom, unlike absol which ohkos hypno if hypno switches out.

[NikhilR]

Well here's my problem with your argument. You said that houndoom is banworthy because it removes psychic/ghost types that stop fighting/normal spam. I agree with that but then you say absol is inferior to houndoom because houndoom counters xatu/haunter, where absol does not. Xatu and haunter aren't exactly the best counters to normal/fighting types just because they get demolished by any coverage move from hitmonlee/granbull. On the other end of the psychic spectrum is hypno that can take pretty much any hit from hitmonlee and can switch in relatively risk free, with instant recovery, making it the superior choice to countering hitmonlee in comparison to xatu. I'm not really sure where I'm going with this but absol pursuit traps hypno a lot better than houndoom is able to because of raw physical power, is what I'm getting at. Sure houndoom can maybe trap hypno if hypno is damaged and houndoom is choice banded, but otherwise hypno is going to survive a cb pursuit from houndoom, unlike absol which ohkos hypno if hypno switches out.

 

Having xatu and haunter gone are added perks of Houndoom. Also you're completely ignoring how powerful dbond is. Also given this is the choiceband meta, if you predict correctly with Xatu/Haunter, it can dish out quite a bit of damage or basically punish you for the wrong prediction. Having Houndoom in the team would make this easier. Most trappers like wynaut can take out only one pokemon but houndoom can take out 2 in this process. Absol doesn't get crunch, so if I was misd, I'd stay in on the pursuit. Whereas if I'm facing a Houndoom, it could crunch or pursuit me. I would try and kill houndoom with diglett if I was so desperate to get it out but then it speed ties with houndoom as well. 

[Robofiend]

Well here's my problem with your argument. You said that houndoom is banworthy because it removes psychic/ghost types that stop fighting/normal spam. I agree with that but then you say absol is inferior to houndoom because houndoom counters xatu/haunter, where absol does not. Xatu and haunter aren't exactly the best counters to normal/fighting types just because they get demolished by any coverage move from hitmonlee/granbull. On the other end of the psychic spectrum is hypno that can take pretty much any hit from hitmonlee and can switch in relatively risk free, with instant recovery, making it the superior choice to countering hitmonlee in comparison to xatu. I'm not really sure where I'm going with this but absol pursuit traps hypno a lot better than houndoom is able to because of raw physical power, is what I'm getting at. Sure houndoom can maybe trap hypno if hypno is damaged and houndoom is choice banded, but otherwise hypno is going to survive a cb pursuit from houndoom, unlike absol which ohkos hypno if hypno switches out.

 

I mean, I get that Absol's comparably good at killing Psychics, but Hypno's not going to do much when it comes to stopping mid-speed tier Physical attackers who are often villainized for being too good at setting up and wallbreaking. 

 

It's just a difference of priorities given our playstyles (I think). I care more about losing my Xatu because I use Xatu to stop fighting spam and you care about Hypno because you're a wallfgt you use Hypno. Regardless of all of this, it's hard for me to see why/how Hypno's going to stay in against Houndoom in the first place. It's not like Hypno has options to stop it outside of Twave and Focus Punch, which won't do much to stop the Pursuit trap unless you hit Doom/Absol on the switch.

 

It'd say either of them are fine at doing their job, Absol's raw power is balanced by its comparably bad SpDef (20 points matters). Absol doesn't get Crunch, i'd say that's a pretty big deal since Bite's the next most powerful option.

 

252 Atk Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Hypno: 212-252 (56.6 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs.

252+ Atk Absol Bite vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Hypno: 224-266 (59.8 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Absol Pursuit (80bp) vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Hypno: 302-356 (80.7 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I'm not seeing that "raw power" pay of that much as far as offense goes.

[BurntZebra]

I mean, I get that Absol's comparably good at killing Psychics, but Hypno's not going to do much when it comes to stopping mid-speed tier Physical attackers who are often villainized for being too good at setting up and wallbreaking. 

 

It's just a difference of priorities given our playstyles (I think). I care more about losing my Xatu because I use Xatu to stop fighting spam and you care about Hypno because you're a wallfgt you use Hypno. Regardless of all of this, it's hard for me to see why/how Hypno's going to stay in against Houndoom in the first place. It's not like Hypno has options to stop it outside of Twave and Focus Punch, which won't do much to stop the Pursuit trap unless you hit Doom/Absol on the switch.

 

It'd say either of them are fine at doing their job, Absol's raw power is balanced by its comparably bad SpDef (20 points matters). Absol doesn't get Crunch, i'd say that's a pretty big deal since Bite's the next most powerful option.

 

252 Atk Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Hypno: 212-252 (56.6 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

vs.

252+ Atk Absol Bite vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Hypno: 224-266 (59.8 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Absol Pursuit (80bp) vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Hypno: 302-356 (80.7 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I'm not seeing that "raw power" pay of that much as far as offense goes.

well absol gets megahorn+swords dance to play around with. Realistically no one will run bite since absol will most likely lose to haunter anyways

[Robofiend]

well absol gets megahorn+swords dance to play around with. Realistically no one will run bite since absol will most likely lose to haunter anyways

 

Oh right, forgot about Megahorn. In any event Hypno can Focus punch the shit out of any Dark type so it's kinda a boring debate. 

 

Lastly, it should be obvious that Absol =/= Houndoom in terms of sweeping and supporting ability, so that's probably enough of this argument for this thread. If you think Absol's also Uber (lol, it's not) then you should open up a thread for it.

[BurntZebra]

Oh right, forgot about Megahorn. In any event Hypno can Focus punch the shit out of any Dark type so it's kinda a boring debate. 

 

Lastly, it should be obvious that Absol =/= Houndoom in terms of sweeping and supporting ability, so that's probably enough of this argument for this thread. If you think Absol's also Uber (lol, it's not) then you should open up a thread for it.

Well I'm not saying absol is uber. I'm just saying absol and houndoom are comparable in their characteristics and ability to support team mates by removing psychic/ghost types. 

[ThinkNice]

Well I'm not saying absol is uber. I'm just saying absol and houndoom are comparable in their characteristics and ability to support team mates by removing psychic/ghost types. 

Absol doesn't have a fast Taunt, Dbond or  Will -o Wisp though. Their only comparison is their ability to trap. Houndoom excels at everything else support related.

[DoubleJ]

Keep doom. Play offensive. Win matches.

[BurntZebra]

Absol doesn't have a fast Taunt, Dbond or  Will -o Wisp though. Their only comparison is their ability to trap. Houndoom excels at everything else support related.

Can't really imagine what you would be taunting in the 137 to 160 speed range to be honest. Not saying absol is the same thing as houndoom, but robofiend said that it should be banned because of its ability to remove pokemon that check fighting/normal spam. 

[YagamiNoir]

Can't really imagine what you would be taunting in the 137 to 160 speed range to be honest. Not saying absol is the same thing as houndoom, but robofiend said that it should be banned because of its ability to remove pokemon that check fighting/normal spam.

Which, courtesy of Pursuit, does put it under support if it's decided to be banned, just like how one would ban Dugtrio by definition, due to their ability to remove otherwise problematic Pokemon unfailingly so that offensive teammates can very easily clean up later. That being said, stuff like Sneasel and Absol get Pursuit, but Houndoom's access to support and utility alongside its Speed means it can do more than just, well -- provide trap support. Destiny Bond in particular, Will-O-Wisp to cripple physical Pokemon, STAB Fire Attacks that scorch otherwise couragous Steels that wall Dark type moves, Super Fang, and here and there.

EDIT: Before someone tackles me on how I think Dugtrio should be banned, I was merely making an example. Edited April 5, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[fredrichnietze]

i see d bonb like a suckyier version of explosion. it only works if your opponent attacks and kills you, otherwise it's just a waste of a turn letting them switch or set up. and either way you still die. i dont see the UU council banning something for killing something by dying.

also many other things have dbond.......

[Robofiend]

i see d bonb like a suckyier version of explosion. it only works if your opponent attacks and kills you, otherwise it's just a waste of a turn letting them switch or set up. and either way you still die. i dont see the UU council banning something for killing something by dying.

also many other things have dbond.......

 

Yeah, other things have Dbond but none of them are Pursuit trappers on top of that. Basically, Houndoom can Pursuit trap something and then turn around and Dbond something else (assuming it's not Mach Punch Hitmonlee), where most other Dbonders can either break walls in their own right (Shark, Haunter) or just aren't very effective (Cacturne, Shark to some degree). There's a big difference between having access to a move and having the complete package that makes it deadly - same debate with Zebra about Absol and Pursuit.   

Edited April 26, 2015 by Robofiend

[Tyrone]

Houndoom, the dark fire dawg of doom. It's very versatality and unpredictability makes it the lady gagy of the UU tier. It can subversal, it can pursuit trap, it can sunnybeam, it can be a special sweeper... so many viable options.

But due to the prevalence of many bulky water types in UU, it's role seems to be more focussed on supporting in the current meta using Will-o-wisp, pursuit and destiny bond to cripple the enemy team. There is no way to deny, a well played houndoom in the right team composition can severly turn a battle into your favour.

 

I really like the discussion so far on Houndoom and would like to see more of it, because the UU Council has yet to make up its mind on this doom dog.

So, I welcome you to contribute constructive posts to this thread and help us decide where to go from here.

[fredrichnietze]

With Blaziken as a UU candidate, Houndoom potentially faces one more switch-in that will OHKO it -- as if it didn't have enough of those already.

And this one's immune to Will-O-Wisp.

blaze is the perfect example of BL. i dont think it'll go to uu.

[Robofiend]

Just going to bump this thread. With the removal of Umbreon, the tier lost an important way of dealing with teh Doge of Doom - send in Umbreon and force it out with Toxic. While Slowking can still stop it (if it runs Toxic), the loss of coverage can hurt your team pretty badly. I also don't see a lot of other pokemon around that can deal with the stronk Crunch/Flame combo. Not to mention:

 

252 Atk Choice Band Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 254-300 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Slowking Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Houndoom: 236-278 (81 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

That's not to mention how good this thing is at Pursuit trapping other pokemon that would be viable without Umbreon around - Exeggutor, Haunter, Grumpig and Hypno. 

[Zorres00]

Just going to bump this thread. With the removal of Umbreon, the tier lost an important way of dealing with teh Doge of Doom - send in Umbreon and force it out with Toxic. While Slowking can still stop it (if it runs Toxic), the loss of coverage can hurt your team pretty badly. I also don't see a lot of other pokemon around that can deal with the stronk Crunch/Flame combo. 

Can't really force it out with toxic if doom got taunt, and this is the case with every special wall. You switch it in, doom can taunt and the only thing u can really do is seismic. In this case, I really don't think umb can handle doom just because umb can't touch doom. So it doesn't really affect doom in any way imo. It just makes doom more favourable for stab pursuit trapping since its obv better than absol. 

 

i think the fact that psychic types such as exe, slowking, xatu, and physical walls steelix, donphan, vileplume, are so common, doom can easily deal with these pokes for the most part. considering u need bulky waters for scizor (slowking being the only one who can wall it), and bulky grass types for kingler, crawdaunt, and azumarill, as well as physical walls like steelix, makes houndoom a popular choice to break down these walls, and give way for a sweeper like scizor to clean up.

 

even if slowking threatens doom with a surf, doom wouldn't be too scared considering it could spam dbond until slowking is forced to predict, which would inevitably allow other physical attackers to sweep.

[Robofiend]

Can't really force it out with toxic if doom got taunt, and this is the case with every special wall. You switch it in, doom can taunt and the only thing u can really do is seismic. In this case, I really don't think umb can handle doom just because umb can't touch doom. So it doesn't really affect doom in any way imo. It just makes doom more favourable for stab pursuit trapping since its obv better than absol. 

 

i think the fact that psychic types such as exe, slowking, xatu, and physical walls steelix, donphan, vileplume, are so common, doom can easily deal with these pokes for the most part. considering u need bulky waters for scizor (slowking being the only one who can wall it), and bulky grass types for kingler, crawdaunt, and azumarill, as well as physical walls like steelix, makes houndoom a popular choice to break down these walls, and give way for a sweeper like scizor to clean up.

 

even if slowking threatens doom with a surf, doom wouldn't be too scared considering it could spam dbond until slowking is forced to predict, which would inevitably allow other physical attackers to sweep.

 

Well I haven't seen Taunt being used much with options like Dbond, Flamethrower, Crunch and Pursuit around (I've seen Sub/Rev too) but yeah, this is also true. Also I'm not sure what you're getting at, I agree that Exegg, Slowking, Xatu, Steelix, Scizor and Vileplume are really common but I don't see how that makes Doom less viable (unless I'm just missing part of your argument or you're saying that Doom should be banned).

[Zorres00]

Well I haven't seen Taunt being used much with options like Dbond, Flamethrower, Crunch and Pursuit around (I've seen Sub/Rev too) but yeah, this is also true. Also I'm not sure what you're getting at, I agree that Exegg, Slowking, Xatu, Steelix, Scizor and Vileplume are really common but I don't see how that makes Doom less viable (unless I'm just missing part of your argument or you're saying that Doom should be banned).

Yeah im just pointing out that umb could really never touch doom, and i am actually taking ur side and saying that it is all the more reason to ban it.

 

edit: taunt doom has already got me twice in the last 2 times ive faced it :(

Edited April 27, 2015 by Zorres00

[Archinix]

Bumping this so it gets more attention, as well I noticed that people brought up Scizor/Slowking, which are now banned from the tier.