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PoochieHead

Battle Animations Part 2: Electric Boogaloo

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We are not going animation-less. It allows players who play without animations to have a tangible benefit in PvE (more time to farm).


I'd like to point out that because it is an option, this is ultimately a "benefit" (since players aren't perfect, the variance between what grind speed is technically achievable over long periods compared to what actually will be achieved on average is notable) for anyone, not truly limited to just certain players because everyone would be able to toggle animations, and doing so would be possible at any time. If players want to achieve this benefit Kyu spoke of, all they have to do is toggle them off for grinding and then toggle them back on at times where they add some pizzazz, like during PvP. I say pizzazz, although animations are notably incomplete as I know staff is aware, and that is totally acceptable -- to be expected, even; nonetheless, this also means animations aren't as much of a "perk" over being able to decide for oneself if one wants animations, at least as big a perk as Kyu had made forced animations out to be (in their current state).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the goals for PokeMMO or any great game for that matter is to minimize or eliminate instances of unfair advantage. I find the definition of an unfair advantage to be something immensely beneficial or game-breaking that only certain people have access to, and I see where one might get caught up in that (i.e., "If animations can be disabled, Player X can outperform Player Y assuming equal amounts of effort."), but I think the right way to approach this dilemma is to see it as "Player X and Player Y both have access to the exact same resource, and can choose for themselves how play the game." If this is the goal, then maybe we can agree that an optional lack of animation would not be game-breaking, and perhaps even that this is not exclusively beneficial, just plain beneficial. I think removing animations entirely without options is very silly, especially considering that they are already semi-implemented, but I also think giving the freedom to disable them would be the right thing to do for the game overall.

This final bit is now out of my area of knowledge and more in the developers' (which is why I'm separating it), but my last thought is that it may possibly be easier to implement an option to disable the animations rather than implementing universal and optional basic animations considering the option to turn them off exists in the base games. Like I said, this is purely an educated guess so feel free to correct me, if only because I'm curious as to the answer. On the subject of universal and optional basic animations, I don't believe that is an ideal solution compared to what I'm proposing because there are still people who simply don't like animations period in Pokemon games (and who can blame them, it's offered in every single non-spinoff game); on the flipside, I heavily doubt there is an equally sizable portion of the userbase that wants the option to keep basic animations but doesn't want the option of no animations. Because of this, and in application, I think the solution the staff was going for will not work as well as expected despite being diplomatic and seeking a compromise to the issue. I do believe in give and take, but this suggestion does not strike me as one where it is necessary, or healthy for the community, to not be directly taken as is.

So that's why I think the option wouldn't be harmful at all, contrary to what staff has said before.

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I can assure you that the image of the game is not furthered by the placeholder animations

 

To you perhaps, but to a majority of our playerbase that is simply not the case.

 

 

I'd love to know what possible basis you had for deciding that placeholders further the image of the game, since you just stated that with such conviction.

 

The many many many threads and support requests we get each day questioning where the move animations are.

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To you perhaps, but to a majority of our playerbase that is simply not the case.

What evidence do you have to back this up? If you really don't have any (which is fine, nobody is judging), I'd be more than happy to do some random sampling in-game to see whether or not players really do have a preferance in regards to the animation placeholders. Would be interesting.

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What evidence do you have to back this up? If you really don't have any (which is fine, nobody is judging), I'd be more than happy to do some random sampling in-game to see whether or not players really do have a preferance in regards to the animation placeholders. Would be interesting.

 

If you wish to personally collect information whether or not there is a preference towards move animations you are more than welcome to - the point I wish to get across is that the amount of support requests and threads we get asking where the move animations are vastly outweigh the ones we see asking to turn them off.

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To you perhaps, but to a majority of our playerbase that is simply not the case.

 

 

The many many many threads and support requests we get each day questioning where the move animations are.

I also constantly question where the move animations are - but that goes for the moves which currently have placeholder animations. You're telling me, with a straight face, that you believe "placeholder animations" are diminishing the amount of threads and support requests? I would bet that they have the opposite effect, as a placeholder animation is basically drawing attention to the fact that the true animation isn't implemented.

 

I don't want you to get confused - I am not advocating for the removal of battle animations. Honestly, I love battle animations and don't mind the extra time it adds to in-game activities. I just don't see the merit of placeholder animations while you work on finishing them up. If I'm in the minority with this opinion, then so be it. However, your hyperbolic claims of floods of support requests and threads are unconvincing, especially since they could easily apply to moves that have place holder animations, too

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I also constantly question where the move animations are - but that goes for the moves which currently have placeholder animations. You're telling me, with a straight face, that you believe "placeholder animations" are diminishing the amount of threads and support requests? I would bet that they have the opposite effect, as a placeholder animation is basically drawing attention to the fact that the true animation isn't implemented.

 

I don't want you to get confused - I am not advocating for the removal of battle animations. Honestly, I love battle animations and don't mind the extra time it adds to in-game activities. I just don't see the merit of placeholder animations while you work on finishing them up. If I'm in the minority with this opinion, then so be it. However, your hyperbolic claims of floods of support requests and threads are unconvincing, especially since they could easily apply to moves that have place holder animations, too

 

Yes, we do believe that placeholder animations are better than no animations - not only for aesthetic purposes but also because allows players to get used to the time events occur with the animations enabled.

We saw the effect of a drastic change to animation speed with the implementation of the fishing rod animation and this led to many complaints about the slow down in being able to fish.

This is something we'd like to get out of the way and establish as the norm as quickly as possible.

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I like the animations, for the most part, although I've noticed they're slightly slower than the cartridge animations.

I might be wrong though, it just feels like it. I haven't fully timed it yet.

 

I don't like the wrong animations, due to my OCD. That's a personal problem though.

I'm actually fine with it slowing down my grinding a bit, since I have to take more notice of what I'm against, my PP reserves, and what I need to do for the next turn in PvP. I've lost a lot of Shinies in cartridge games just turning the animations off. ;-;

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Yes, we do believe that placeholder animations are better than no animations - not only for aesthetic purposes but also because allows players to get used to the time events occur with the animations enabled.

We saw the effect of a drastic change to animation speed with the implementation of the fishing rod animation and this led to many complaints about the slow down in being able to fish.

This is something we'd like to get out of the way and establish as the norm as quickly as possible.

I do appreciate your continued dialogue on the subject. Let me quickly refine my main complaint with placeholder animations, as I just remembered that there is a distinction to be made.

 

What I have no problem with are the generic placeholder animations (nothing is coming to mind at the moment, so I don't have a specific example, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about). It's hard for me to describe since I can't log on and check it, but its almost like a semi circle forming on the opposing pokemon. I have no problem with these, because as far as I know, that animation isn't normally reserved for a different move.

 

What I DO have a problem with, however, are moves like Shadowball, Surf, and Waterfall (which I've brought up previously in this thread). Rather than use the generic placeholder animation, the game instead uses a flat out WRONG animation (for shadow ball, it's the bite/crunch animation, and for Surf and Waterfall, it's the water gun animation). This is the kind of thing that is not furthering the image of the game - when newcomers use shadow ball and see the bite animation, they would rightly scratch their heads and the animations draw attention to the lack of a proper animation.

 

TL;DR - Generic placeholders, ok (as long as the new animations are actually on the horizon, unlike higher BP payouts). Incorrect placeholder animations, not ok. At least, not for someone with OCD like me

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The thing with the placeholders is that not every animation has a generic placeholder. Add that to the fact that making sure the right animations are assigned to the proper move is a very time consuming and tedious process.

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The thing with the placeholders is that not every animation has a generic placeholder.

Why not?

Add that to the fact that making sure the right animations are assigned to the proper move is a very time consuming and tedious process.

I'm aware of this, but that doesn't really excuse the problem - incorrect placeholders rather than generic ones while this time consuming and tedious process is underway

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't shadow ball's move animation USED to work correctly? Maybe I'm thinking of Surf, I'm not sure

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I do not recall shadow ball ever having the proper animation. Additionally it takes more time to create generic placeholders than it does to just truck through and assign the proper ones as they are located.

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I agree with alot of Gunthug is saying, Seeing a move use a very generic placeholder for it's animation is very confusing for players that join the game, it will make them wonder 1 did I use the right move? 2 uhm is this game glitched, 3 make it look like that game's dev's are lazy, sloppy, and none caring for the product the made. Now I'm not saying that Dark and the other dev's are that Just stating what a new player would feel or think and I say that because a few new members on the Team I'm with had been asking about it.

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I agree with alot of Gunthug is saying, Seeing a move use a very generic placeholder for it's animation is very confusing for players that join the game, it will make them wonder 1 did I use the right move? 2 uhm is this game glitched, 3 make it look like that game's dev's are lazy, sloppy, and none caring for the product the made. Now I'm not saying that Dark and the other dev's are that Just stating what a new player would feel or think and I say that because a few new members on the Team I'm with had been asking about it.


Well it was either have place holder animations or none at all besides that little wiggle. I could see the latter being more confusing to new players than the former

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I agree with alot of Gunthug is saying, Seeing a move use a very generic placeholder for it's animation is very confusing for players that join the game, it will make them wonder 1 did I use the right move? 2 uhm is this game glitched, 3 make it look like that game's dev's are lazy, sloppy, and none caring for the product the made. Now I'm not saying that Dark and the other dev's are that Just stating what a new player would feel or think and I say that because a few new members on the Team I'm with had been asking about it.


So you would rather them take extra time to create generic placeholders for everything from scrath rather than use the resources available? I don't know about you but I don't see any reason to create a generic placeholder animation for everything when assests already exist. The only time assets should be created is when nothing suitable can be done for the actual animatiom using the available assets. It's more overhead to not use what is already there just to make it "less confusing" and I'm going to be honest here but if you doubt you used the right move based on the animation rather than reading the text box then that's on you. I do agree that some players think the placeholders are bugs so maybe something should be done about that in game but disabling the animations is not the solution. Edited by XelaKebert

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I'd like to point out that because it is an option, this is ultimately a "benefit" (since players aren't perfect, the variance between what grind speed is technically achievable over long periods compared to what actually will be achieved on average is notable) for anyone, not truly limited to just certain players because everyone would be able to toggle animations, and doing so would be possible at any time. If players want to achieve this benefit Kyu spoke of, all they have to do is toggle them off for grinding and then toggle them back on at times where they add some pizzazz, like during PvP. I say pizzazz, although animations are notably incomplete as I know staff is aware, and that is totally acceptable -- to be expected, even; nonetheless, this also means animations aren't as much of a "perk" over being able to decide for oneself if one wants animations, at least as big a perk as Kyu had made forced animations out to be (in their current state).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the goals for PokeMMO or any great game for that matter is to minimize or eliminate instances of unfair advantage. I find the definition of an unfair advantage to be something immensely beneficial or game-breaking that only certain people have access to, and I see where one might get caught up in that (i.e., "If animations can be disabled, Player X can outperform Player Y assuming equal amounts of effort."), but I think the right way to approach this dilemma is to see it as "Player X and Player Y both have access to the exact same resource, and can choose for themselves how play the game." If this is the goal, then maybe we can agree that an optional lack of animation would not be game-breaking, and perhaps even that this is not exclusively beneficial, just plain beneficial. I think removing animations entirely without options is very silly, especially considering that they are already semi-implemented, but I also think giving the freedom to disable them would be the right thing to do for the game overall.

This final bit is now out of my area of knowledge and more in the developers' (which is why I'm separating it), but my last thought is that it may possibly be easier to implement an option to disable the animations rather than implementing universal and optional basic animations considering the option to turn them off exists in the base games. Like I said, this is purely an educated guess so feel free to correct me, if only because I'm curious as to the answer. On the subject of universal and optional basic animations, I don't believe that is an ideal solution compared to what I'm proposing because there are still people who simply don't like animations period in Pokemon games (and who can blame them, it's offered in every single non-spinoff game); on the flipside, I heavily doubt there is an equally sizable portion of the userbase that wants the option to keep basic animations but doesn't want the option of no animations. Because of this, and in application, I think the solution the staff was going for will not work as well as expected despite being diplomatic and seeking a compromise to the issue. I do believe in give and take, but this suggestion does not strike me as one where it is necessary, or healthy for the community, to not be directly taken as is.

So that's why I think the option wouldn't be harmful at all, contrary to what staff has said before.

Tl;dr

 

Also, with every move animation would there be a battle scene option to turn off all attack animations? That'd be helpful if you were trying to do a speed alt-run.

Edited by Grampaaa

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The animations you are referring to are placeholders until we fully complete the move animations.
The reason we made the decision to implement placeholders was to further the image of the game (moreso than having none) and make sure players were used to them being activated.

pls... You're talking about a generation from r/b/y to ORAS whom had animations off... If anything we're more used to having swift battles/interactions

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pls... You're talking about a generation from r/b/y to ORAS whom had animations off... If anything we're more used to having swift battles/interactions

 

Its actually something you have to consciously turn off in ORAS just like in any other game- as well as if its anything like X/Y it turns back on for pvp even if you have it turned off.

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Its actually something you have to consciously turn off in ORAS just like in any other game- as well as if its anything like X/Y it turns back on for pvp even if you have it turned off.

which is the point, mandatory in PvP is ok as far as "equality" goes, yet i don't get the reasoning why it should be in PvE as well, it will save a dramatic amount of time in nerve-wrecking process you call "money making" and "EVing".

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So you would rather them take extra time to create generic placeholders for everything from scrath rather than use the resources available? I don't know about you but I don't see any reason to create a generic placeholder animation for everything when assests already exist. The only time assets should be created is when nothing suitable can be done for the actual animatiom using the available assets. It's more overhead to not use what is already there just to make it "less confusing" and I'm going to be honest here but if you doubt you used the right move based on the animation rather than reading the text box then that's on you. I do agree that some players think the placeholders are bugs so maybe something should be done about that in game but disabling the animations is not the solution.

And to some newer players that join that see surf is using water gun shadow ball is bite etc they are not gonna think highly of the game and the dev staff. At the end you have to think of the Consumer not yourself. What do they want to see. do they want to see a half ass'd pokemon game or a full game, ESP when they Dev/staff has the option for donating.

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And to some newer players that join that see surf is using water gun shadow ball is bite etc they are not gonna think highly of the game and the dev staff. At the end you have to think of the Consumer not yourself. What do they want to see. do they want to see a half ass'd pokemon game or a full game, ESP when they Dev/staff has the option for donating.


You haven't answered my question. Would you rather them take extra time, even to the point of potentially delaying updates, just to make generic placeholders that will take up space on the server just to remove them when the correct animations are added? Server space is expensive stuff, especially hosting space. Taking up space with extra resources just for a temporary placeholder makes little sense when assets already exist on the server that can be used. In the end, they have thought of the consumer. If you read what Darkshade has posted, they did not make the decision lightly. In the end it was done the way that it was done for a reason. There are probably more factors they considered but they felt it more important to get players used to having them on for everything rather than just a few.

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Personally I hate animations and would like to turn them off. At the very least for PVE. On/off battle animation option is necessary and as was already stated multiple times, was already in the handheld games.

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Compulsory in PvP, optional in PvE, Win win situation. I personally would have them on at all times except perhaps when I'm EV training. The only unfairness I see in this is some people can speed through alt runs with them off, however since staff are trying to make alt runs redundant, I don't see this as a problem... assuming they do everything right.

Edited by Kizhaz

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Like them or not the animations are a pacing mechanism meant to control the rate at which players complete the storyline and gain money via payday. All games have pacing mechanisms built in. Just because the option existed in the handhelds that does not mean it fits into an mmo.

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Like them or not the animations are a pacing mechanism meant to control the rate at which players complete the storyline and gain money via payday. All games have pacing mechanisms built in. Just because the option existed in the handhelds that does not mean it fits into an mmo.

because the game paxicing isntslow enough yet? You must be out of arguments to pull this out of your ass.

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control the rate at which players complete the storyline and gain money via payday.

If they actually worked on some storyline, they wouldnt need "a pacing mechanism". As for the later, payday shouldn't be the main yen income and thus not severely affect the economy being speed up.

 

On topic, I do agree that battle animations should be implemented and enabled by default, but players should be given the option to turn them off. And dont bring the "b-but noobs/non speaking players will have a disadvantage" argument, since you never cared to do anything else for them before (ie in game tutorials, translate clients).

 

The solution proposed I like is that one where animations are a must for PVP but an option for PVE.

 

As for the one that decided that water gun and bite animations were better options than scratch animation, you're an uguu.

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