[UU Discussion] Scizor (Banned from UU to BL)

[richardbenzina]

 
ability:
swarm
 
viable moves
 
OFFENSIVE
-quick attack
-persuit
-double edge
-steel wings
-aereal ace
-super power
-knock off
-thief
 
STATUS
-agility
-swords dance
-light screen
-safeguard
-morning sun
 
we could do 3 different sets
 
- the first adamant/jolly with swords dance
-the second adamant with agility
- the second impish with morning sun and light screen making him an awesome tank
 
let's do some calcs

 

OFFENSIVE SET ADAMANT MAX ATTACK WITH SWORDS DANCE

 

+2 252+ Atk Scizor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 124-147 (61.3 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 132-156 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Golem: 180-214 (96.2 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Scizor Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hypno: 136-160 (70.8 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Scizor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 149-176 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lapras: 248-294 (104.6 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Scizor Thief vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Shuckle: 30-36 (23.6 - 28.3%) -- 91.2% chance to 4HKO (but what could shuckle do ?)

 

DEFENSIVE SET WITH MORNING SUN AND LIGHT SCREEN

 

 

252+ Atk Granbull Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 60-71 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 45-54 (25.4 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 62-73 (35 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

252+ Atk Fearow Drill Peck vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 58-70 (32.7 - 39.5%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

 

i hope that this is enough to explain that scizor is unhealthy for the UU tier. too much defense. too much attack.

discuss please

[YagamiNoir]

>Not assuming Fire Punch.
>Thiefing a Shuckle instead of using Steel Wing.
>Not calcing vs stuff like Donphan and Blastoise offensively.
>Not calcing vs Choice Banders defensively.

[Havsha]

>Not assuming Fire Punch.
>Thiefing a Shuckle instead of using Steel Wing.
>Not calcing vs stuff like Donphan and Blastoise offensively.
>Not calcing vs Choice Banders defensively.

Instead of flaming, try adding your opinion.

[OldKeith]

As scary as those total base stats look, you cannot really have everything.

 

1. Defensively

Morning Sun has only 8 PP and if you invest in defenses scizor will not be able to do much damage. What exactly is it supposed to do with a defensive set? Baton pass is banned, and it cannot wish or even be a cleric.

 

2. Offensively

A bit scary, but the lack of a Bug STAB move is a big minus. The only stab it has access to is Steel Wing. Swords Dance and Superpower are scary, but they can be walled, and remember a lot of normal type pokemon run Fire Punch to have an offense against Steel Types.

[Archinix]

Where's that Iron Defence at?

[Havsha]

This isn't flame. He's just neglecting Choice Band and a few viable counters.

Then run the calcs and add to the page, no need to attack someone who is trying to add their opinion.

[YagamiNoir]

Then run the calcs and add to the page, no need to attack someone who is trying to add their opinion.

You're overreacting at my response. I would, but I'm on a phone. My apologies although it was the simplest I could do. Edited March 24, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[richardbenzina]

As scary as those total base stats look, you cannot really have everything.

 

1. Defensively

Morning Sun has only 8 PP and if you invest in defenses scizor will not be able to do much damage. What exactly is it supposed to do with a defensive set? Baton pass is banned, and it cannot wish or even be a cleric.

 

2. Offensively

A bit scary, but the lack of a Bug STAB move is a big minus. The only stab it has access to is Steel Wing. Swords Dance and Superpower are scary, but they can be walled, and remember a lot of normal type pokemon run Fire Punch to have an offense against Steel Types.

surely the lack of bug stab hurts a lot, but is it enough to move it to UU?

silwer wind was only 60 power and 8max pp

[Archinix]

chioice band is worthed 600k or 3 days of work with trainer tower which is full of bugs and really hard

for you may seem easy to get but not every can afford one, so i prefer to do like this.

but will add all the other things that i miss , sorry for that :)

I have 4 Choice Bands. I can get 2 in 1 days work.

 

 

surely the lack of bug stab hurts a lot, but is it enough to move it to UU?

It is already UU

[OldKeith]

chioice band is worthed 600k or 3 days of work with trainer tower which is full of bugs and really hard

for you may seem easy to get but not every can afford one, so i prefer to do like this.

but will add all the other things that i miss , sorry for that :)

 

Having a serious competitive discussion, you have to assume everyone has all the tools available, like showdown. Choice band is obtainable, and any competitive player has 1, 2 or even more. If we discuss a pokemon, we do it pokemon showdown style - assume everyone gets the best comps, all items, all moves and natures they need. You cannot be taken seriously if you assume things like "hey, I am weak to fire punch, but red shards are hard to find, so yeah I am cool". Not implying you said that, just an example.

[Vaeldras]

I have 4 Choice Bands. I can get 2 in 1 days work.

 

 

It is already UU

 

Didn't you have 18?

Besides, choice bands are common and affordable right now, but even if they were extremely rare, that wouldn't chance the fact that it can be used with them.

 

On the other hand, getting morning sun...

[Archinix]

Didn't you have 18?

Besides, choice bands are common and affordable right now, but even if they were extremely rare, that wouldn't chance the fact that it can be used with them.

 

On the other hand, getting morning sun...

Sarcasm :P 

 

But Morning Sun isn't even that bad either

[DrCraig]

I think a bulky set containing

Sword Dance

Superpower

Steelwing

Morning Sun / Return

is like borderline unstoppable for the tier. Of couse Scizor doesnt have the speed, but it sure has the bulk and fire power. Interested about actually discussion.

[Archinix]

I think a bulky set containing

Sword Dance

Superpower

Steelwing

Morning Sun / Return

is like borderline unstoppable for the tier. Of couse Scizor doesnt have the speed, but it sure has the bulk and fire power. Interested about actually discussion.

If it's running this set I'm pretty sure Morning Sun would be a must have. Just my 2 cents there but I'll start doing some calcs when I get some food

[Shaniqualela]

I think a bulky set containing
Sword Dance
Superpower
Steelwing
Morning Sun / Return
is like borderline unstoppable for the tier. Of couse Scizor doesnt have the speed, but it sure has the bulk and fire power. Interested about actually discussion.

Without return slowking, tentacruel and mantine can wall it, and with return they can wear it down because it still can't ohko.
Even if it's bulky l, slowking can flamethrower and do a ton of damage, and tenta/mantine do decent damage with surf to wear it down

[YagamiNoir]

TIme to get this into fact.

 

Scizor can be offensive and defensive, although to my information the latter seems to have more popularity, although I suppose both sets have their relevance. Scizor has Swords Dance and Choice Band as offensive options, with stuff like Superpower, Reversal, Steel Wing, Pursuit, Return or Double-Edge, and Quick Attack. It's only STAB is Steel Wing, which despite high Attack, has a generally bad typing offensively. What can effectively deal with a Scizor with that given?

 

Counter users usually are effective at catching this stuff off as much as it is a rare event that people actually use it. Examples include;

 

252+ +2 Scizor Superpower vs. 252/252+ Donphan: 96-113 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ +2 Scizor Superpower vs. 252/252+ Blastoise: 108-128 (58 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

The sole point I'm making here is that you can take the hit and Counter it back for an OHKO, as much as they are vulnerable to 2HKOes and cannot reply sufficiently. There are a few other instances, say Hitmontop, and there's the possibility of it predicting a Counter and setting up another Swords Dance, but the former two have phazing moves to stop it from being too greedy. If it sets up a second Swords Dance predicting Counter, it can be phazed away, and if it decides to Attack, it is vulnerable to Counter. I find this a pretty effective tactic against most physical Attackers. A Bulky Scizor will also get stripped of it's boost because of Haze before it can attack if it isn't invested to outpace Blastoise. 

 

Heat Wave Crobat and Xatu are pretty notable picks for checking it, given it's x4 resistance to check to Scizor's most powerful move being Superpower, although it doesn't take it's other moves well. Xatu also isn't one of the Psychic types that Scizor that safely Pursuit trap or set up on because of it.

 

0 Crobat Heat Wave vs. 4/0 Scizor: 139-164 (95.8 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Crobat Heat Wave vs. 252/0 Scizor: 187-220 (105.6 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

Xatu has superior Special Attack, hence why the calcs aren't included for it. Relating to this, here's another point I find worth mentioning. Steel as a dominant defensive typing in any tier does tempt most things to run a Fire or Ground move to cover said types.  Some people can have their claims of it being effective to trap Psychic or Ghost types, or on more defensive sets think they can wall their entire sets since it isn't weak to any of those moves. The listed Pokemon in OP that have attempted to Earthquake it all have possibility of running a Fire move, which can, well, utterly roast the bug. In the case of Psychic types, despite the difficulty of HP breeding, do have their possibilities of running Hidden Power Fire. Scizor's Speed makes it vulnerable to a faster Pokemon that switches on it's Swords Dance carrying a Fire Attack, as much as you can ensure what set it's running, be it a Choice Band set, Swords Dance set, or a defensive set. I'm pretty sure no one should have offensive issues with a defensive set, though.

 

Examples of Pokemon that can check it through a Fire move include Ninetales, the Nido duo (Nidoqueen and Nidoking), and in rarer cases Altaria, having a Fire move as options, and resisting one of it's common Attacks at the very least, albeit not all of them. Physical Attackers with their new distribution of elemental punches, or in Hitmonlee's case Blaze Kick, can also make for effective revenge killers, although they don't have the plus of having some move they can resist unlike the previously mentioned Pokemon. Scizor's Speed, despite having Agility, is also slow enough for it not to be as hard to revenge kill in comparison to other physical attackers. It's x4 weakness to Fire detracts from it's bulk alongside the unreliable PP for Morning Sun, and I speculatively believe that it is reliant more on it's bulk to function. A set that runs Agility generally lacks power, and getting off an Agility and Swords Dance isn't something that is a desirable mention in theory like this, since Scizor cannot reliably do that in the first place and at the same time loses coverage. A SubReversal set is a noteworthy, mention, however, although I have doubts over it's effectiveness in a tier with a fair bit of priority users. 

 

There are mentions such as Tentacruel, Mantine, and Slowking that do resist it's dual STAB, but their lower defense than most walls means that Double-Edge or even Return can still squish you. Slowking does have Flamethrower/Fire Blast, though, which also makes it a decent check. 

 

Going back to a defensive set, Scizor's a nice resist to Normal types and having recovery and all, but it's not an unbreakable tank, putting Iron Defense off the equation initially. Scizor can wall things provided that it does get off that Iron Defense, but it's not something you can throw out at the best physical attackers available. It also depends on how you Speed invest it, pretty much, since most of this stuff can be invested to outpace an uninvested Scizor, even despite their low Speed stats themselves. Scizor can invest it Speed, but lose a fair bit of physical bulk in the process. A tank Scizor is also more vulnerable to switch ins with Fire type attacks since unlike the Swords Dance or Choice Band set cannot effectively threaten those switch ins. 

 

252+ Choice Band Donphan Earthquake vs. 252/252+ Scizor: 96-114 (54.2 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 + Choice Band Granbull Fire Punch vs. 252/252+ Scizor: 193-228 (109 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Choice Band Hitmonlee Superpower vs. 252/252+ Scizor: 115-136 (64.9 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

I do express the fair amount of Fire Attacks in our tier as approaches to Scizor. The Swords Dance set is powerful, but depending on investment neglects either speed or bulk, which flaws it's effectiveness to sweep, in a nutshell. Defensive sets are more vulnerable to said Fire type users due to the fact that they have less trouble coming in due to the lack of offensive presence.

 

Edited March 25, 2015 by YagamiNoir

[DrCraig]

Too much bulk

Too much coverage

Not enough counters

[Excelimpulse]

I dont play uu but I honestly do not see why this isn't in ou. type bulk and pure cb is great. Plus pursuit access now....

[Robofiend]

Not enough counters

 

presence/absence of counters unrelated to Uberness, ggnore

 

In all seriousness, Scizor is great but its lack of a good STAB seems to limit it offensively. Superpower / Steel Wing / Theif is solid coverage, but its nowhere near as diverse as Breloom, Hitmonlee, Granbull, Kangaskhan or Azumarill. I said this in another thread, but I think the reason so many people are afraid of SD users is because they spit in the face of wall teams, who fall quickly when one of their members is picked off by +2 Superpower/Theif.

 

To relate this to ThinkNice's post: banning things like Scizor because they can beat walls after setup is just favoring stall over offense. Scizor is only Uber by definition if it sweeps widely/easily after getting into play and setting up - something that Scizor's low speed and bad spdef prevent. Like Kingler/Zangoose, Scizor works very similarly to how OU Marowak used to work - you get it into play, you set up as they switch to a wall and then you start going ham. Yeah, it's scary, but its certainly not Uber when faster special attackers/supporters (Manectric, Xatu, Crobat, Hitmonlee, Zangoose, etc.) can hit it hard with a Fire move to stop its sweep.

 

On defense, it doesn't have much going for it. Sure it can sponge Choiced hits, but its only physical resists are Ice/Dark/Normal (Normal resist is actually godly). Instant recovery is always a plus, but being slow kind of counters the advantages of that. It also doesn't help that Scizor doesn't really have a purpose as a wall - it can't heal teammates, it can't set/clear hazards and it doesn't have awesome Status options.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Robofiend

[OldKeith]

On defense, it doesn't have much going for it. Sure it can sponge Choiced hits, but its only physical resists are Ice/Dark. Instant recovery is always a plus, but being slow kind of counters the advantages of that. It also doesn't help that Scizor doesn't really have a purpose as a wall - it can't heal teammates, it can't set/clear hazards and it doesn't have awesome Status options.

 

 

It also resists normal type moves.

 

I am on the fence about Scizor, it seems healthy to me tbh, forcing people to consider fire moves in their team just to go by this unique typing. I think the moment Scizor gets a hug type move we can discuss this again.

Edited March 29, 2015 by OldKeith

[Robofiend]

It also resists normal type moves.

 

I am on the fence about Scizor, it seems healthy to me tbh, forcing people to consider fire moves in their team just to go by this unique typing.

 

Wow yeah, forgot about how important Normal resist is. I think it's healthy to have another pokemon besides Steelix around that can soak up a STAB return.

[NikhilR]

I think scizor is too strong for UU. The only legit counter that comes to my mind is Slowking and that is only if it carries flame thrower. It's got a decent base speed to switch in on a lot of things and SD easily. Return+Superpower are easily spammable attacks. Not to consider team synergy, but the only purpose for adding steel wing is to mainly hit ghost types which imo aren't all that bulky and viable considering how there are many pursuit users like swellow / houndoom around. 

 

Moreover Scizor can pull off a reversal set as well along with salac making it faster than manectric/xatu which were the pokemon that could've stopped it from sweeping. And manectric/xatu cannot come in on a return so you'd need to predict a SD or morning sun or tank a superpower hit with xatu (someone calc the dmg for that). There comes Swellow which would be the best choice to revenge kill it. 

 

It does its job as a wall breaker too well because every time it takes down a wall, all you can do is force the switch out with a fire type user and then it can come back in. Imo I really would prefer if we could move it up.

[DoubleJ]

I think scizor is too strong for UU. The only legit counter that comes to my mind is Slowking and that is only if it carries flame thrower. It's got a decent base speed to switch in on a lot of things and SD easily. Return+Superpower are easily spammable attacks. Not to consider team synergy, but the only purpose for adding steel wing is to mainly hit ghost types which imo aren't all that bulky and viable considering how there are many pursuit users like swellow / houndoom around.

Moreover Scizor can pull off a reversal set as well along with salac making it faster than manectric/xatu which were the pokemon that could've stopped it from sweeping. And manectric/xatu cannot come in on a return so you'd need to predict a SD or morning sun or tank a superpower hit with xatu (someone calc the dmg for that). There comes Swellow which would be the best choice to revenge kill it.

It does its job as a wall breaker too well because every time it takes down a wall, all you can do is force the switch out with a fire type user and then it can come back in. Imo I really would prefer if we could move it up.

I don't see reversal as viable in the uu tier at all. If you get to 1hp then you run into claydol, gligar, hypno, grumpig, xatu, etc that can and will kill you. That's just too much coverage to stop in order to gain a reversal sweep. Scizor though benefits from is typing keeping many of these from ohko'ing it with any move allowing for a swords dance. Still though +2 double-edge may not kill these and you will suffer recoil.

Scizor is in a wierd spot. It breaks walls and functions as a defensive switch itself. Right now i cant see it banned but by removing another fire punch user (hariyama) we might start to see some trouble with this. Lets just see it play out some more. Stab CB return is very troublesome and aside from steelix this is the only viable resistance against that in uu right now.

[NikhilR]

I don't see reversal as viable in the uu tier at all. If you get to 1hp then you run into claydol, gligar, hypno, grumpig, xatu, etc that can and will kill you. That's just too much coverage to stop in order to gain a reversal sweep. Scizor though benefits from is typing keeping many of these from ohko'ing it with any move allowing for a swords dance. Still though +2 double-edge may not kill these and you will suffer recoil.

Scizor is in a wierd spot. It breaks walls and functions as a defensive switch itself. Right now i cant see it banned but by removing another fire punch user (hariyama) we might start to see some trouble with this. Lets just see it play out some more. Stab CB return is very troublesome and aside from steelix this is the only viable resistance against that in uu right now.

 

It's got decent bulk and with that, it can probably reach 2 swords dances before it endures. I'm sure a +4 return will wreck all of the above counters you've mentioned (for a reversal set I mean). 

 

I don't know why we're looking for return resists when we have immunities like Misdreavus or Haunter which can now hit hard with 2 good stabs or sableye which handles most normal type choice banders very well.

[DoubleJ]

It's got decent bulk and with that, it can probably reach 2 swords dances before it endures. I'm sure a +4 return will wreck all of the above counters you've mentioned (for a reversal set I mean). 

 

I don't know why we're looking for return resists when we have immunities like Misdreavus or Haunter which can now hit hard with 2 good stabs or sableye which handles most normal type choice banders very well.

 

Because of your other pokemon you are trying to get banned, Houndoom. Although these are also wrecked fairly well by Crunch or Pursuit which most of the heavy hitting CB Normal-types carry.